Cargo Hold should be Volume Constrained not Mass Constrained and other mass limits

At the moment cargo is bought in quantities of mass but stored in standardised containers. This can only really mean that containers with the densest materials are under filled so that the lightest materials are at maximum capacity. This doesn't make a lot of sense (especially when you consider the lightest commodity is hydrogen) .

I think it would be good if cargo was still bought and sold in standardized volumes but each commodity had a different density and therefore mass. Cargo holds would therefore be Volume Constrained instead of Mass Constrained.

This would introduces a new game mechanic where on any landing pad with gravity you could be constrained by your vertical thrusters maximum acceleration in m/s^2 (determined by your Total Mass and thruster force) and the local gravity in m/s^2 (at the moment a standardised simulated gravity, but in the future planets with differing gravities too) . Outposts would be effectively non constrained in this manner due to virtually no gravity while stations would either deny docking rights until you jettison some cargo (at a appropriate distance) or stop trading before you hit your mass limit. This would also need to be a considered constraint for mission availability. Considering how this would only be a significant factor for some dense metal commodities (or ships that have weak thrust) it should not be a problem for most players, but it might allow for a new class of specialty craft that have a small cargo bay but a relatively high thrust meaning they could be the optimal solution for transporting valuable commodities, sort of like a space armored van.

The new unit for cargo volume could just be a standard cargo container without reference to what that volume is but I think it's logical that some special cargo would not be transported by containers, in particular I'm thinking slaves and any other future paying passengers, also some machinery and technology might be oversized. I'm thinking any passenger would be transported in a coffin sized stasis chamber with independent life support and would probably take up about 1m^3 of volume (2.5m X 0.5m X 0.8m) , meanwhile a standard cargo container could be more like 0.2m^3 (0.5m X 0.5m X 0.8m) minus the edges so it has a octagon profile. So units for commodities could either be 1m^3 or 0.2m^3.

At the moment there seems to be 3 types of mass (Hull, Cargo, Fuel) and 2 types of flight that use various masses to calculate flight characteristics. The first type of flight is normal thruster propelled flight, I haven't done thorough tests but it seems to use only the Hull Mass to calculate the acceleration and maximum speed of the craft (not counting the thrusters and power distributor) . The second is a hyperspace jump, this uses Hull Mass and Cargo Mass to calculate the maximum jump range of a craft. Fuel Mass doesn't change with how full the tanks are but the tanks just have a module mass that goes towards the Hull Mass.

I would suggest that all 3 types of mass always be used to calculate both types of flight. The obvious problem is Fuel Mass as you can currently easily gain fuel, but the only way to get rid of it is to use it, and who wants to be doing circles at 2000c for an hour just to get a little more jump range (you could probably supercruise the extra distance faster!). The obvious answer to the problem is to add a fuel dump option and a sell fuel at Stations and Outposts option.

This could add some nice strategy to fuel management other than keep it full and buy cheap (if you are not scooping) , there would be a risk/reward for keeping your fuel low because you would be faster, more agile and could jump further, but you could not potentially sell excess fuel at stations and would not be able to skip a fuel scooping just because a particular star is very hot. If fuel dumping also provided some heat dumping it would be a further mechanic which would add a optional layer of complexity that experts could exploit and add further utility to silent running. Also by counting Cargo Mass as part of the flight characteristics it would also allow a strategy of dumping cargo to become more agile or faster (fight or flight) when you are being pursued. Good for the purser if you drop gold and run, bad for them if you drop lead and fight.
 
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Yes yes yes and there's no sound in space.

(seriously though I like the ideas. Being release day I wouldn't hold your breath)
 
I agree with this one 100%, though I'm pretty sure they won't budge on mass-constrained artificial 'unit' constrained current system, at least not quickly. Perhaps there'll be a Trade Overhaul -expansion at some point.

As comes to docking, even stations aren't a problem when their largest apparent gravity is still micrograv - you only need to come in slow enough. Granted, it will be very slow on large ships with poor thrusters, but it's doable. Now, after planetary landings are implemented, with cargo over your thruster mass ceiling you'll likely end up lithobreaking (no, not braking, breaking) on approach.

What excess mass will do is make all vector changes a lot slower, and hinder your maneuverability.
 
In general your idea ia a logical approch.
But the Frame Shift Drive jump range, fuel consumption and other flight physics the game is based on are all related to mass. Means you can't simply change from mass to volumne, you need to keep both: mass for the physics, volumne for the cargo space.
Thus makes it rahter hard (but not impossible) to implement. So I think this change will not find its way into the game so quickly.
 
In general your idea ia a logical approch.
But the Frame Shift Drive jump range, fuel consumption and other flight physics the game is based on are all related to mass. Means you can't simply change from mass to volumne, you need to keep both: mass for the physics, volumne for the cargo space.
Thus makes it rahter hard (but not impossible) to implement. So I think this change will not find its way into the game so quickly.

I don't think it would pose problems to flight physics or FSD jump range calculations. It would only make more players scream. For instance Sidewinder has basic cargo space (as of now) for 4t of goods. Those 4t translate to 4 "standard cargo units" no matter what the actual cargo is. If the approach is switched from 1 unit = 1t to a more realistic way as proposed in the original post it would mean that since the cargo is stored in standardized containers, the number of containers you would be able to fit in your cargo hold would remain the same. The mass of those would change based on content. So if the containers have 1m3 of storage space each and Sidewinder would be able to fit 4 containers in the cargo hold then loading full cargo of Hydrogen would increase the mass of the ship by 280kg for Hydrogen plus the weight of the containers themselves. So having full load of hydrogen would have minimal impact on flight dynamics and jump range (unless your cargo hold scores a hit and your ship gets flooded by liquid hydrogen). And to be able to haul 4t of liquid Hydrogen, you would need ~57 containers/space units. Now at the other hand if you would load 4 cans of Gold (which has density of 19320 kg/m3) you would probably exceed your poor Sideys MTO quite a bit as the 4 full cans would mean 77.28t of mass gain.

I'm absolutely for making this change as it would bring a lot of realism to the game. At the other hand I understand that casual players would cry as this would seriously impact the amount of cargo each ship could carry.

But then again... I'm an explorer and usually i fly with empty cargo anyway... :)
 
Something I didn't implicitly state is hydrogen as a normal commodity could be phased out by just trading fuel for the same effect. Any left over commodity for hydrogen in containers could just be used as micro fuel tank upgrades. Probably it's own topic but cargo space should be able to haul any other thing the pilot wants like extra munitions and spare parts too. Even an explorer should have a good reason for a full cargo bay, otherwise they have no value to pirates.

I imagine a change to the new system in three parts. First you assume 1t = 1m^3 and convert all standard containers to 5 X 0.2t new standard containers in everyone's cargo, the commodity market, and missions. You keep some commodities as over sized at the original quantity and mass (like slaves) . You then after some time change the mass values for different commodities to represent more realistic densities and let this effect hyperspace travel. Finally you overhaul normal flight physics to account for the true total spacecraft mass and add fuel trading and dumping.
 
It's all fair and well that you have ideas on the matter, but to be honest, that's what the DDF forum was for. The people who pledged to be a part of that forum had the option to express their views. To do so now, is just beating a dead horse....
 
It's all fair and well that you have ideas on the matter, but to be honest, that's what the DDF forum was for. The people who pledged to be a part of that forum had the option to express their views. To do so now, is just beating a dead horse....

I don't see why not. True changing cargo from mass to volume might be a bit of a big change for them to make after the launch of the game, but this dangerous suggestions forum has only just been set up since the launch of the game, so surely all suggestions are allowed in here, and even ones like this might kick off a new train of thought.
 
It's all fair and well that you have ideas on the matter, but to be honest, that's what the DDF forum was for. The people who pledged to be a part of that forum had the option to express their views. To do so now, is just beating a dead horse....

All very true, but to be fair it was posted in the "Dangerous Suggestions" forum (tagline "How Dangerous is your suggestion for the universe of Elite?"). I reckon it's in the correct place myself ;)

As far as the suggestion goes, while it does makes physics sense, this is a game. We already have a few concessions to physics which have been kept because it improves gameplay (like the non-newtonian flight model, FSD being able to fly you at superluminal speeds etc.) so I reckon this is a case where simpler is probably better, especially for newer players trying to get to grips with trading or hauling :)
 
This is a great suggestion, but it creates an even bigger divide between the cheap and expensive commodities. Already nobody really trades any of the sub-500cr commodities because the profit margins are lower. Since food is relatively lightweight, I can transport more gold in my given volume than I can coffee, so transporting coffee becomes even less attractive. Of course this could be fixed by adjusting the prices of coffee or gold to accomodate, and possibly meaning heavier commodities are riskier due to the greater chance of losing and then escaping interdictions, but it seems like a rather large overhaul for little real benefit other than realism.
 
Already nobody really trades any of the sub-500cr commodities because the profit margins are lower. Since food is relatively lightweight, I can transport more gold in my given volume than I can coffee, so transporting coffee becomes even less attractive. Of course this could be fixed by adjusting the prices of coffee or gold to accomodate,

Well I was thinking that prices would relatively stay the same but you would be paying for volume instead of mass, that's why I would spread the changes over a few different updates so people wouldn't get confused and feel cheated when they bought a mass of something one day and found it changed mass without changing price. Everything they own would still be at the same percentage of their cargo volume and have the same value.

If anything this might actually make some light materials like food more valuable than gold on a credit per mass basis. But in some future high tech universe where there are over a trillion mouths to feed and anyone can mine a planetary ring for shiny but otherwise useless metals that might actually make more sense anyway... besides there is precedence with ancient traders trading spices and fabrics that had even more value than gold at the time.

Also the larger endgame ships would be naturally better suited to hauling large amounts of low density goods.
 
I don't see how this is any different from the way it is now apart from some slight technicalities that just muddy the waters. Gold containers could just be smaller than food containers. If you say a sidewinder can haul 4 tons of the least dense material in the game then that defines how large all the cargo bays are. Problem solved.

i realize the all look the same size but really how hard is it to ever see these canisters of different types side by side to scale floating next to each other where that comparison is valid? As has been said: 'tis a game.
 
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At the moment cargo is bought in quantities of mass but stored in standardised containers. This can only really mean that containers with the densest materials are under filled so that the lightest materials are at maximum capacity. This doesn't make a lot of sense (especially when you consider the lightest commodity is hydrogen) .

I think it would be good if cargo was still bought and sold in standardized volumes but each commodity had a different density and therefore mass. Cargo holds would therefore be Volume Constrained instead of Mass Constrained.

This would introduces a new game mechanic where on any landing pad with gravity you could be constrained by your vertical thrusters maximum acceleration in m/s^2 (determined by your Total Mass and thruster force) and the local gravity in m/s^2 (at the moment a standardised simulated gravity, but in the future planets with differing gravities too) . Outposts would be effectively non constrained in this manner due to virtually no gravity while stations would either deny docking rights until you jettison some cargo (at a appropriate distance) or stop trading before you hit your mass limit. This would also need to be a considered constraint for mission availability. Considering how this would only be a significant factor for some dense metal commodities (or ships that have weak thrust) it should not be a problem for most players, but it might allow for a new class of specialty craft that have a small cargo bay but a relatively high thrust meaning they could be the optimal solution for transporting valuable commodities, sort of like a space armored van.

The new unit for cargo volume could just be a standard cargo container without reference to what that volume is but I think it's logical that some special cargo would not be transported by containers, in particular I'm thinking slaves and any other future paying passengers, also some machinery and technology might be oversized. I'm thinking any passenger would be transported in a coffin sized stasis chamber with independent life support and would probably take up about 1m^3 of volume (2.5m X 0.5m X 0.8m) , meanwhile a standard cargo container could be more like 0.2m^3 (0.5m X 0.5m X 0.8m) minus the edges so it has a octagon profile. So units for commodities could either be 1m^3 or 0.2m^3.

At the moment there seems to be 3 types of mass (Hull, Cargo, Fuel) and 2 types of flight that use various masses to calculate flight characteristics. The first type of flight is normal thruster propelled flight, I haven't done thorough tests but it seems to use only the Hull Mass to calculate the acceleration and maximum speed of the craft (not counting the thrusters and power distributor) . The second is a hyperspace jump, this uses Hull Mass and Cargo Mass to calculate the maximum jump range of a craft. Fuel Mass doesn't change with how full the tanks are but the tanks just have a module mass that goes towards the Hull Mass.

I would suggest that all 3 types of mass always be used to calculate both types of flight. The obvious problem is Fuel Mass as you can currently easily gain fuel, but the only way to get rid of it is to use it, and who wants to be doing circles at 2000c for an hour just to get a little more jump range (you could probably supercruise the extra distance faster!). The obvious answer to the problem is to add a fuel dump option and a sell fuel at Stations and Outposts option.

This could add some nice strategy to fuel management other than keep it full and buy cheap (if you are not scooping) , there would be a risk/reward for keeping your fuel low because you would be faster, more agile and could jump further, but you could not potentially sell excess fuel at stations and would not be able to skip a fuel scooping just because a particular star is very hot. If fuel dumping also provided some heat dumping it would be a further mechanic which would add a optional layer of complexity that experts could exploit and add further utility to silent running. Also by counting Cargo Mass as part of the flight characteristics it would also allow a strategy of dumping cargo to become more agile or faster (fight or flight) when you are being pursued. Good for the purser if you drop gold and run, bad for them if you drop lead and fight.

You should start a Kickstarter campaign so you can make your own game. We'll call it "Cargo Captain". I am sure that there are two or three people who would contribute.:rolleyes:
 
Gold containers could just be smaller than food containers. If you say a sidewinder can haul 4 tons of the least dense material in the game then that defines how large all the cargo bays are. Problem solved.

i realize the all look the same size but really how hard is it to ever see these canisters of different types side by side to scale floating next to each other where that comparison is valid? As has been said: 'tis a game.

It will matter more when you can actually walk around your ship and the station. Also if they make flight physics be effected by mass after planetary landings they will have more problems. We know the game will change a lot in time, I'm just trying to guide the course.
 
It's a good idea. But this game isn't realistic. It's pseudo realistic and throws out realism for the convenience of gameplay. Is what I'd say, but it's a bit more haphazard than that. It's thrown out based on the instincts of Frontier Devs and the 'feeling' they want to create.
 
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