Case against realism - Jimquisition episode about RDR2 and other 'realism' based games

[duffbeeeer]

I think you're missing his point. He isn't talking about 'hardcore' experiences vs 'casual', he's talking about obsessive attention to detail and how that can detract from enjoyment. The game doesn't have to be Dark Souls level brutal to suffer from time wasting animations, needlessly complex but mundane gameplay, and unnecessary detail 'fluff'.

I disagree with your point about gamers needing to be kicked in the nether regions in order to appreciate their experiences, though, even though it's a bit off topic from what Jim is talking about.

The term time wasting animations is subjective. Do you think a man at that time would have skinned the whole forest in 30 mins or even needed to? You might answer "but its just a game" and thats absolutely fine. For me its about immersing myself in that world and that also includes doing chores. Rockstar even implemented them for the camp life. It sure is a polarizing decision to do so, especially regarding this budget of the title. It takes alot of balls to do it and taking the financial risks. You should all be welcoming this development because it means much more variety in games in the long run. Also this step is critical for games to become an higher form of art. Games can give us things movies and books cant and that is immersion. The developers on the world are just scratching the surface.

[video=youtube_share;kpEAdTXYT1Y]https://youtu.be/kpEAdTXYT1Y[/video]

 

[Roybe]

Realism vs gameplay...let's look around our home here:

Ship shipping. An added sense of realism to wait for your ship...or nothing but a reason to shut off your machine and come back tomorrow....

That's the controversy the OP is talking about. Does the time you are 'playing'/'wasting' ratio work for gameplay or just become a real life simulation of drudge work....

 

[Roybe]

The term time wasting animations is subjective. Do you think a man at that time would have skinned the whole forest in 30 mins or even needed to? You might answer "but its just a game" and thats absolutely fine. For me its about immersing myself in that world and that also includes doing chores. Rockstar even implemented them for the camp life. It sure is a polarizing decision to do so, especially regarding this budget of the title. It takes alot of balls to do it and taking the financial risks. You should all be welcoming this development because it means much more variety in games in the long run. Also this step is critical for games to become an higher form of art. Games can give us things movies and books cant and that is immersion. The developers on the world are just scratching the surface.

'My emmerrrsion'...killing games since its inception. If I have to do chores in a game...I'll go do them in real life and get way better rewards for my efforts....

 

[duffbeeeer]

Realism vs gameplay...let's look around our home here:

Ship shipping. An added sense of realism to wait for your ship...or nothing but a reason to shut off your machine and come back tomorrow....

That's the controversy the OP is talking about. Does the time you are 'playing'/'wasting' ratio work for gameplay or just become a real life simulation of drudge work....

I fully understad your point but where do you draw the line ? shouldnt we be able to insantly teleport to colonia via wormhole? Why are the systems so big and SC so boring and taking so long?

RDR2 has 5 secs long animations Jim is complaining about. 5 secs for not looking goofy while skinning or looting people. I find that rather amusing to have a problem with and a symptom of the instant gratification mindset we live in.

'My emmerrrsion'...killing games since its inception. If I have to do chores in a game...I'll go do them in real life and get way better rewards for my efforts....

See you are a gamer thinking about rewards. For me its the journey. RDR2 might not be for you.

 

[Jenner]

The term time wasting animations is subjective. Do you think a man at that time would have skinned the whole forest in 30 mins or even needed to? You might answer "but its just a game" and thats absolutely fine. For me its about immersing myself in that world and that also includes doing chores. Rockstar even implemented them for the camp life. It sure is a polarizing decision to do so, especially regarding this budget of the title. It takes alot of balls to do it and taking the financial risks. You should all be welcoming this development because it means much more variety in games in the long run. Also this step is critical for games to become an higher form of art. Games can give us things movies and books cant and that is immersion. The developers on the world are just scratching the surface.

Variety in game experiences is fantastic. I'm glad devs try all sorts of things, including those of the 'time wasting' sort. However, games don't *need* that to become true art.

To me, having to do chores in a game past a certain point becomes, well....a chore. I do chores IRL. I don't play games to do chores.

There are plenty of things games do for immersion's sake that I'm totally down with. I've long advocated for space legs around here, despite the many counter-arguments that its' just a waste of time and effort on the devs part to include such 'realism' in a spaceship game. Being able to walk around my ship = immersive. However, being forced to sleep or eat or wait for the shop to open before I can sell cargo in Elite is not something I think should be added, no matter how 'realistic' it may be.

There is immersion and then there's wasting time. Of course it's subjective and I won't lecture anyone on their own tastes.

 

[Cosmo Bozo]

RDR2 has 5 secs long animations Jim is complaining about. 5 secs for not looking goofy while skinning or looting people. I find that rather amusing to have a problem with and a symptom of the instant gratification mindset we live in.

It's not just about looking goofy either it is gameplay, it makes the game feel more real because it can affect whether you approach a situation in a realistic way. If you didn't have them you could hop from body to body instantly looting them while someone was shooting at you which turns the game from a believable setting to arcade mode... there's room for both types and already plenty of arcade games out there.

It's like mega fast reloading in shooters, it's possibly less frustrating but it also removes an element of strategy in when you reload and if you have to find cover to do so.

 

[Goose4291]

I don't see how having to watch the same animation over and over again is suddenly "hardcore" and "real gamer" experience with "meaning".

I'm just going to throw it out there.

Perhaps the animations are in there for when we get RDR2's online component?

Means you'll have to check your surroundings before you start skinning, lest you get bumped.

 

[Roybe]

I fully understad your point but where do you draw the line ? shouldnt we be able to insantly teleport to colonia via wormhole? Why are the systems so big and SC so boring and taking so long?

RDR2 has 5 secs long animations Jim is complaining about. 5 secs for not looking goofy while skinning or looting people. I find that rather amusing to have a problem with and a symptom of the instant gratification mindset we live in.



See you are a gamer thinking about rewards. For me its the journey. RDR2 might not be for you.

First, 5 second long animations....with a shut down of the game each time, isn't the problem. The problem is how many times during a session are you locked out from anything else than watching that same animation again and again..tied to the level of requirement to 'do something' in said game. If I play a game for 100 hours what % of the time am I not able to do what I desire? When you add up all the 'hurry up and wait' actions, a lot of games are just that..hurry up and wait...and wait.

As for the discussion of immersion vs game play...it is the same discussion. How much time do I have to wait being 'immersed' before I can enjoy what I desire to do? I want to be involved in the game. In this game I have a choice, to fly a long jump specific ship to where I want to be...then wait to bring in the ship I want to play with...which is fine if I am only desiring to play as a solo person.

But if I want to wing up and have to travel any distance to get to play with folks...then I have to get there and wait for my ship to get there...or take an extra amount of minutes travel time to bring it (IF I'm in it). I just don't bother....or try to set up a schedule with friends...and hope we can get that to work out. There is a sense of instant gratification, I admit, but that is the gratification to do what you desire in the game immediately. Not have to jump through time gates designed to keep you from what you want to do.


I personally like the idea of instant travel...since, regardless, you have to travel to the place in the first place...but the travel ISN'T the most fun for many players...it is, for you, but the travel for me is just slowing me down from what I want to be doing anyway (unless I am wanting to enjoy the travel, then I can just ignore the instant travel and move along as I desire for that session)...increasing the time for me to play the way I want isn't fun...and decreases my desire to play the game.

 

[biot]

In fairness to Jim, the title of this thread isn't what he is talking about in that video. He is talking about taking detail and realism to the point where it adds nothing or even detracts from the gameplay. He aptly expresses it in his usual understated and eloquent way by describing it as the developer, er, pleasuring themselves and forcing you to watch it over and over. Of course he phrases it a bit differently than I have, but that's the gist of it.

 

[PhanttoM]

In fairness to Jim, the title of this thread isn't what he is talking about in that video. He is talking about taking detail and realism to the point where it adds nothing or even detracts from the gameplay. <snip>

Yeah, like how RDR2 has realistic horse testicles.

^I initially thought that was a joke.

 

[SpacialKatana]

It's the same debate we have over ED - is something gameplay , or it it grind. The same arguments are playing out around whether probes should be infinite or not, and it's the same questions - is this something that's fun, or just busy work. And the same answer - some will like it, others - not so much.

Nice vid though, first I've seen complaining about BoTW in anyway at all

2nd I've seen, and pretty much about the same things. I think Rockstar games are over-rated generally and all the big 'game review' sites are paid-up shills anyway. Good game, sure, perfect 10/10? Get out of town !