Chaff should generate Heat

[DragoonKnight]

Chaff in Elite is literally the only defense system that does not have any downsides to it. You can equip Dual Chaff launchers and spam it all day long. However the sensors on our ships are looking for thermal signatures and the only way to confuse thermal / infrared sensors looking for thermal signatures is to provide them with something hotter. Therefore Chaff is very hot. However deploying chaff does not cause any heat on our ships. This should be addressed, both for balance and immersion purposes.

The limitations of chaff are - 10 uses until you have to reload

Let us take a look at the other defense systems available in Elite
SCB - generate a metric ton of heat. Require heat sinks in order not to burn your ship.
Point Defense - Does not cover the entire ship, especially large ships. Has limits on its firing arc and rate of fire. Can be defeated by a large number of missiles fired at once.
ECM - must be manually fired and tends to aggro every ship it hits, assuming they were not hostile before

 

[PavelKCZ]

Chaff in Elite is literally the only defense system that does not have any downsides to it. You can equip Dual Chaff launchers and spam it all day long. However the sensors on our ships are looking for thermal signatures and the only way to confuse thermal / infrared sensors looking for thermal signatures is to provide them with something hotter. Therefore Chaff is very hot. However deploying chaff does not cause any heat on our ships. This should be addressed, both for balance and immersion purposes.

The limitations of chaff are - 10 uses until you have to reload

Let us take a look at the other defense systems available in Elite
SCB - generate a metric ton of heat. Require heat sinks in order not to burn your ship.
Point Defense - Does not cover the entire ship, especially large ships. Has limits on its firing arc and rate of fire. Can be defeated by a large number of missiles fired at once.
ECM - must be manually fired and tends to aggro every ship it hits, assuming they were not hostile before

Ehm, why exactly ? NPCs are immune to any heat damage at all and in PvP players are using mostly fixed weapons or they know how to untarget and change the gimballed/turreted weapons to fixed. But maybe I missed something.

 

[Werewolf13]

However the sensors on our ships are looking for thermal signatures and the only way to confuse thermal / infrared sensors looking for thermal signatures is to provide them with something hotter.

Excellent point! It's the 34th CENTURY for GOD'S SAKE!

Which begs the question:
Where's the Quantum RADAR or at least precision millimeter radar (milimeter radars are around now) that can see out further than a lousy 6 miles. Way, way further. H.ell - the CIWS (close in weapon system) way back in the early 80's could shoot down missiles moving at 2000 mph (faster than anything not in super cruise can fly). And all we get are lousy thermal based radars? Idiocracy must rule the galaxy in the 34th century.

<shakes head> Some things in ED are just plain stupid! Don't get me started on the airplane speed the ships fly at when not in supercruise - no - not a good idea at all.

 

[Brimstone]

No, chaff doesn't need to generate heat. Some things are better left alone.

 

[Argus Leadhead]

Chaff is basically just ribbons/ flakes of metal used to confuse tracking systems. Why would it create heat? They don't cause you to lose lock-on. They only confuse gimbals and turrets, which as far as I can tell, don't rely on heat signatures. A flare on the other hand is burning magnesium and other metals to give them specific colour. They create heat, but would be useless in a vacuum. They need some kind of oxidizer to keep burning and there's no O2 in a vacuum to do it.

You used to be able to time dropping a heatsink to confuse missiles as they are indeed hotter than your ship is when dropped. Not sure if they still work in that regard.

 

[Perseus]

If chaff were to be hot, wouldn't it's release cool the ship? I quite like this idea but there's no way it'll find it's way into the game.
I'd also like the ECM bursts to mess up gimballed/turreted weapon systems.

 

[Bam]

Its space Chaff though, normal rules don't apply. Also, don't tell anyone I said this, its just a game.

 

[Alex Brentnall]

This should be addressed, both for balance and immersion purposes.

The science doesn't add up, the heat doesn't add up, immersion isn't fixable for this without handwavium or overhaul, but going into balance a second yes it is but not how you think.

Chaff is equally effective for everyone using it but small ships are less target-able so benefit more than large ships that will be easier hit with un-targeted gimballed weapons or take more glancing hits if attacker doesn't de-target.
Arguably chaff also only gives you a few seconds breathing space where as PD/ECM actively stop missiles and SCB give shields back. All 3 have more "active results" rather than a more general targeting confusion.

Thats the way I see it anyway.

 

[Arvel Yael]

Chaff doesn't need to generate heat.
Aeronautical chaff doesn't generate heat, and while flares do, that heat is local to the flare and doesn't affect the deploying aircraft.

I've seen plenty of folks insisting that ED should be hard because it's realistic, but I think this is the first time I've seen someone want some mechanics to be unrealistically difficult.

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

Chaff in Elite is literally the only defense system that does not have any downsides to it. …

Chaff is the counter to gimbaled and turreted weapons.
The downside of chaff is, that fixed weapons aren't affected by chaff and that un-targeting turns gimbaled weapons into fixed weapons (without the slightly higher damage of fixed weapons).

Thinking of it, fixed weapons should get a buff…

 

[Ca$hback]

Chaff doesn't need to generate heat.
Aeronautical chaff doesn't generate heat, and while flares do, that heat is local to the flare and doesn't affect the deploying aircraft.

This.___

 

[S.H.A.D.O]

Chaff is just small thin strips of aluminum foil. (actually invented by us Brits, although it was called 'Window')

 

[Obnoxious_Gamer]

I love it when people call for "realism" in a game with hit points, limited-range missiles the size of a small car, nuclear engines with an exhaust velocity of under 500 meters per second, foot-wide heat sinks that can drain all heat from a 150-meter-long ship for ten seconds no matter what, Alcubierre Drives that ignore completely all laws of physics they don't break under normal conditions, the Corvette's awful jump range and weapon placement, authorities that prefer to scan both ships before shooting despite one being an obvious criminal, the recharge time of downed shields not being the same despite larger ships having proportionally larger reactors, distributors, and capacitors, the complete negation of newton Ian physics while boosting, the fact that boosting the engines doesn't damage them, engines that don't use power from their subsystem under normal flight but gain speed when more power is allocated to said subsystem, the lack of the ability to name your own ship, reactors that still work at 10% integrity, mass locking as an on/off switch when it should be a quadratic speed multiplier, stations that can be "lost" despite being available on the magical galaxy map, the fact that FSDs require a massive capacitor charge followed by a ridiculous amount of fuel during a high-wake jump but not in supercruise, one guy who manages to sell literally everything in the galaxy for 15% cheaper, small railguns that put out insane amounts of heat even on huge ships, module classes that go up in size by a factor of two when it should be four assuming we're talking about a standard cube shape, the base hull weight of the Anaconda, the lack of module storage of any type, engineer mods that are so extensive they take incredibly rare materials to craft ( but can be removed with the click of a button), nonvariable-height landing gear in a universe where landing on planets is extremely common, capital ships without long-range weapons, police scans that can be blocked by stations said police are guarding, no anti-scan shielding or cargo holds, shielding that stays intact during supercruise and high-wake operations despite it jutting out further than deployed weapons, the availability of the Eagle despite its obsolescence and the apparent end to its manufacture, insurance claims that cover over five hundred million dollars, shields that'll protect a ship from terrain impacts while allowing said ship's landing gear to make contact (but don't protect SRVs from terrain impacts)...

I could go on. Feel free to quote this any time some fanboy makes a "muh realisms" argument.

 

[Werewolf13]

I love it when people call for "realism" in a game with hit points, limited-range missiles the size of a small car, nuclear engines with an exhaust velocity of under 500 meters per second, foot-wide heat sinks that can drain all heat from a 150-meter-long ship for ten seconds no matter what, Alcubierre Drives that ignore completely all laws of physics they don't break under normal conditions, the Corvette's awful jump range and weapon placement, authorities that prefer to scan both ships before shooting despite one being an obvious criminal, the recharge time of downed shields not being the same despite larger ships having proportionally larger reactors, distributors, and capacitors, the complete negation of newton Ian physics while boosting, the fact that boosting the engines doesn't damage them, engines that don't use power from their subsystem under normal flight but gain speed when more power is allocated to said subsystem, the lack of the ability to name your own ship, reactors that still work at 10% integrity, mass locking as an on/off switch when it should be a quadratic speed multiplier, stations that can be "lost" despite being available on the magical galaxy map, the fact that FSDs require a massive capacitor charge followed by a ridiculous amount of fuel during a high-wake jump but not in supercruise, one guy who manages to sell literally everything in the galaxy for 15% cheaper, small railguns that put out insane amounts of heat even on huge ships, module classes that go up in size by a factor of two when it should be four assuming we're talking about a standard cube shape, the base hull weight of the Anaconda, the lack of module storage of any type, engineer mods that are so extensive they take incredibly rare materials to craft ( but can be removed with the click of a button), nonvariable-height landing gear in a universe where landing on planets is extremely common, capital ships without long-range weapons, police scans that can be blocked by stations said police are guarding, no anti-scan shielding or cargo holds, shielding that stays intact during supercruise and high-wake operations despite it jutting out further than deployed weapons, the availability of the Eagle despite its obsolescence and the apparent end to its manufacture, insurance claims that cover over five hundred million dollars, shields that'll protect a ship from terrain impacts while allowing said ship's landing gear to make contact (but don't protect SRVs from terrain impacts)...

I could go on. Feel free to quote this any time some fanboy makes a "muh realisms" argument.

At last someone has said it!
Thank You, thank you THANK YOU!

 

[Ren Garris]

I love it when people call for "realism" in a game with hit points, limited-range missiles the size of a small car, nuclear engines with an exhaust velocity of under 500 meters per second, foot-wide heat sinks that can drain all heat from a 150-meter-long ship for ten seconds no matter what, Alcubierre Drives that ignore completely all laws of physics they don't break under normal conditions, the Corvette's awful jump range and weapon placement, authorities that prefer to scan both ships before shooting despite one being an obvious criminal, the recharge time of downed shields not being the same despite larger ships having proportionally larger reactors, distributors, and capacitors, the complete negation of newton Ian physics while boosting, the fact that boosting the engines doesn't damage them, engines that don't use power from their subsystem under normal flight but gain speed when more power is allocated to said subsystem, the lack of the ability to name your own ship, reactors that still work at 10% integrity, mass locking as an on/off switch when it should be a quadratic speed multiplier, stations that can be "lost" despite being available on the magical galaxy map, the fact that FSDs require a massive capacitor charge followed by a ridiculous amount of fuel during a high-wake jump but not in supercruise, one guy who manages to sell literally everything in the galaxy for 15% cheaper, small railguns that put out insane amounts of heat even on huge ships, module classes that go up in size by a factor of two when it should be four assuming we're talking about a standard cube shape, the base hull weight of the Anaconda, the lack of module storage of any type, engineer mods that are so extensive they take incredibly rare materials to craft ( but can be removed with the click of a button), nonvariable-height landing gear in a universe where landing on planets is extremely common, capital ships without long-range weapons, police scans that can be blocked by stations said police are guarding, no anti-scan shielding or cargo holds, shielding that stays intact during supercruise and high-wake operations despite it jutting out further than deployed weapons, the availability of the Eagle despite its obsolescence and the apparent end to its manufacture, insurance claims that cover over five hundred million dollars, shields that'll protect a ship from terrain impacts while allowing said ship's landing gear to make contact (but don't protect SRVs from terrain impacts)...

I could go on. Feel free to quote this any time some fanboy makes a "muh realisms" argument.

This is good and all' you make VERY valid points..... I would have actually read them had you interjected some SPACES into your wall o' text.

But you did make some sense.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

While we are nerfing chaff, why not make heat sinks generate heat as well?

 

[JerryLove]

Bah!

Kill chaff entirely. Punish gimbaled weapons with reduced damage (you already do, but maybe tweak it) and/or reduced range. Be done with it.

While I'm at it: decide if a sensor is something in the ship (discovery scanner, ship sensor, surface scanner) or outside the ship (wake scanner, kill warrant scanner).
Decide if a shield is something inside (shield) or outside (shield booster).
Let us carry ammo in cargo (or leave in the unlimited ammo bug) and punish kinetic with magazine load time / travel time (again, you do, but make that the sole (non heat/power) mechanic).

You could perhaps replace the chaff launcher with a heat radiator (increases the rate of heat loss passively (though nowhere near as much as the heat sink launcher does actively), raises visibility).

 

[PiLhEaD]

I am getting confused by people wanting the game to be even less fun than it already is. <shrugs>

 

[Frenotx]

I agree with your assumption that the chaff flakes are heated. I disagree, however, that this means launching them should generate heat. A clever designer would just dump the ship's heat into the flakes before launching them, similarly to how the ship dumps heat into heatsinks. Therefore if anything, it would be logical for firing chaff to actually REDUCE the ship's heat, slightly. From a gameplay perspective though, I'm fine with them just not affecting your heat at all.

As for the "where's the super advanced, long range radar? Why are our sensors so lame?" question, that's easy: stealth technology evolved faster than radar. Anti-radar stealth got so effective and readily accessible that radar became entirely useless, and heat became the only way to reliably track ships.

 

[Tel Prydain]

Bah!

Kill chaff entirely. Punish gimbaled weapons with reduced damage (you already do, but maybe tweak it) and/or reduced range. Be done with it.

While I'm at it: decide if a sensor is something in the ship (discovery scanner, ship sensor, surface scanner) or outside the ship (wake scanner, kill warrant scanner).
Decide if a shield is something inside (shield) or outside (shield booster).
Let us carry ammo in cargo (or leave in the unlimited ammo bug) and punish kinetic with magazine load time / travel time (again, you do, but make that the sole (non heat/power) mechanic).

You could perhaps replace the chaff launcher with a heat radiator (increases the rate of heat loss passively (though nowhere near as much as the heat sink launcher does actively), raises visibility).

Yes... to all of that.