Horizons - Change order of the latitude and longitude readout on the hud to be the same as pre-2.2 - WHY???

[Valnik]

Please correct me if I am wrong but:
The lat/long coordinates on Earth work like this:

-flying North (0) increases the values in the positive axis
-flying South (180) increases the values in the negative axis ,
-flying East (90) increases the values in the positive axis
-flying West (270) increases the values in the negative axis

It was like that originally in Horizons but:

• It got reversed (I think with “Engineers”). It messed completely my sense of navigation on planetary flying.
• In 2.2 it was reversed to the original (at last).
• Now in 2.2.01 they say it is reversed again!

Q1 Why?
Q2 Is it going to change again?

With persistent locations on planetary surfaces (as it was the case with the “barnacles”) it is essential to have ONE CORRECT system of coordinates in order to navigate.

Am I the only player which thinks this is a problem?

I wonder if anyone from FD can provide an answer.

 

[Valnik]

Am I the only player which thinks this is a problem?

Probably !

 

[CMDR Ash]

Probably !

L O L

 

[Valnik]

L O L

Seriously, I was sure that not many were bothered with this, but I was expecting some kind of reaction…

 

[GodBlock]

I've not really used the coordinate system before the arrival of the alien bases

Seem to me like they are the wrong way around and my head hurts

Just give us a way to click a point on the planet in system map and have a waypoint shown on our HUD or something

 

[Valnik]

I've not really used the coordinate system before the arrival of the alien bases

Seem to me like they are the wrong way around and my head hurts

Just give us a way to click a point on the planet in system map and have a waypoint shown on our HUD or something

There is definitely a need to be able to “mark” a point on a planet surface. At least it could be something temporary, some kind of “special” limpet.
But anyway this is a step further.

At least we should have ONE steady coordinates system, so we know which direction we need to fly to.

 

[Rampant]

Please correct me if I am wrong but:
The lat/long coordinates on Earth work like this:

-flying North (0) increases the values in the positive axis
-flying South (180) increases the values in the negative axis ,
-flying East (90) increases the values in the positive axis
-flying West (270) increases the values in the negative axis

It was like that originally in Horizons but:

• It got reversed (I think with “Engineers”). It messed completely my sense of navigation on planetary flying.
• In 2.2 it was reversed to the original (at last).
• Now in 2.2.01 they say it is reversed again!

Q1 Why?
Q2 Is it going to change again?

With persistent locations on planetary surfaces (as it was the case with the “barnacles”) it is essential to have ONE CORRECT system of coordinates in order to navigate.

Am I the only player which thinks this is a problem?

I wonder if anyone from FD can provide an answer.

As a real life aviator I prefer the way it is now. Northings should come first - this number can't exceed 90° or be less than -90°.

However, whichever way you list them, as long as you know which way around they are, then all is good enough.

Cheerz

 

[Valnik]

As a real life aviator I prefer the way it is now. Northings should come first - this number can't exceed 90° or be less than -90°.

However, whichever way you list them, as long as you know which way around they are, then all is good enough.

Cheerz

Thank you for your comment, very Interesting point of view, especially when it comes from a real flyer.
Ok I could live with that, as long as it is persistent and does not change from update to update.

 

[GG7]

Thank you for your comment, very Interesting point of view, especially when it comes from a real flyer.
Ok I could live with that, as long as it is persistent and does not change from update to update.

This has always been confusing, and I hope they stop changing this around all the time. I was just starting to get use to the previous version! [rolleyes]

But as others have said.... What we really need is some kind of WAY POINT feature that allows up to MARK a specific location on a planet and have it become a "persistent" navigational aid! This is especially valuable when it comes to locating and documenting the locations of the new geysers and other geologic annomolies introduced in 2.2.

There are also supposed to be some VERY interesting new structures and alien points of interest on planets that according to Frontier themselves, none of us have managed to find yet, which surprised them. I would say that the reason we haven't found this stuff is because all of these planet based things are a monumental PITA to work with right now!

Frontier really needs to get serious about finally giving us some real surface based navigational aids that will make preserving and sharing discoveries something worth pursuing.

 

[Valnik]

This has always been confusing, and I hope they stop changing this around all the time. I was just starting to get use to the previous version! [rolleyes]

But as others have said.... What we really need is some kind of WAY POINT feature that allows up to MARK a specific location on a planet and have it become a "persistent" navigational aid! This is especially valuable when it comes to locating and documenting the locations of the new geysers and other geologic annomolies introduced in 2.2.

There are also supposed to be some VERY interesting new structures and alien points of interest on planets that according to Frontier themselves, none of us have managed to find yet, which surprised them. I would say that the reason we haven't found this stuff is because all of these planet based things are a monumental PITA to work with right now!

Frontier really needs to get serious about finally giving us some real surface based navigational aids that will make preserving and sharing discoveries something worth pursuing.

Totally agree with you. Surface based navigational aid is lacking in the game.
The instruments we have to work with right now are primitive even with today’s standards, not 3302!
I imagine a Cessna today has much more than we have in a space ship of the future.
We should organize some kind of group that will make some proper suggestions (maybe there is already something there and I just do not know about it).

 

[Rampant]

Totally agree with you. Surface based navigational aid is lacking in the game.
The instruments we have to work with right now are primitive even with today’s standards, not 3302!
I imagine a Cessna today has much more than we have in a space ship of the future.
We should organize some kind of group that will make some proper suggestions (maybe there is already something there and I just do not know about it).

About the Cessna - kinda true what you say, however, *everything* is based on reference to a "fixed" Earth. GPS is a signal from a satellite orbiting Earth. Magnetic compass uses Earth's magnetic field. Gyro Magnetic compasses use "the long term accuracy of the magnetic field and refine using the short term accuracy of a gyro". And that gyro has to have corrections made to it when transported from one part of the Earth's surface to another, because gyros fix themselves in space, not relative to the Earth's surface. They also need corrections while stationary, because the Earth rotates in space. Finally, inertial navigation units (INU) also use linear accelerometers (space referenced, corrected to Earth frame of reference) and gyros (angular accelerometers corrected for Earth frame of reference). The INU is not very accurate in the grand scheme of long distance space travel, but is the only one from the load of Earth navigation devices that could be used successfully in space.
PS - lowly Cessnas don't have INUs

Cheerz

Mark H

(Navigational Guru and Instructor)

 

[Bomba Luigi]

My sense of orientation on planets definitly is messed up now with 2.2, I get confused. Which heading does now increase/decrease what? Is latitude still the one on the Top? As I said, I'm really confused

 

[Rampant]

My sense of orientation on planets definitly is messed up now with 2.2, I get confused. Which heading does now increase/decrease what? Is latitude still the one on the Top? As I said, I'm really confused

Latitude (northings) is now (E|D 2.2.01) the top figure. Use heading 360° to increase the northings, heading 180° to decrease. Range is -90 (south pole) to 90 (north pole).
Longitude (eastings) is now the bottom figure. Use heading 090° to increase the eastings, 270° to reduce the eastings value. Range -180 to 180.

 

[Khelder]

It's a bit late but just to clarify...

By the time 2.0 was released, everything was fine. With the release of 2.1, the heading readout was "fixed??" so that it was now 180° out (0° was actually pointing South when it should be pointing North). In 2.2 the heading readout was corrected (back to 2.0 state), but the lat/long values (in the lower right of the central hud layout) were swapped so that longitude was now shown first. This not only contradicted general standards but also reversed untold number of readings that players had possibly recorded from previous versions.

It's really a bit odd that we've gone through all of this because I can't for the life of me figure out what needed "fixing" after 2.0. But here we are.

I haven't tested yet, but hopefully we are now back to the correct 2.0 state. Which should be heading 0° actually points North (to the North pole) and latitude is displayed above longitude.

The above is what I added to the patch thread. Things have been a bit of a mess, but should be correct now. Remember that there have been two things at play (which have been changed at different times).

1. The heading indicator: This was broken in 2.1, but was fixed in 2.2.
2. The lat/long values: The order of these was initially incorrect (longitude was first). It was changed during 2.0 beta so that by 2.0 it was correct. It has been correct up until 2.2 beta when they flipped it for some unknown reason*. It has now been corrected in 2.2.01. When I say "correct" here, I mean "correct" as in latitude then longitude is the more commonly accepted standard.

Hopefully, it won't change again.

* My guess would be this: Someone internally entered a bug saying something along the lines of "heading the wrong way around". Programmer looks at that and says to himself, "That's an easy fix. I'll just swap the order." I could be completely wrong, but I'm lost for any other reason for it.

 

[Mercury7]

Yes it is a problem: there are standards for these things. N/E is positive. Anyone who paid attention during Math class would see why.

I hope N/E is positive, and that Latitude appears first!

 

[Valnik]

About the Cessna - kinda true what you say, however, *everything* is based on reference to a "fixed" Earth. GPS is a signal from a satellite orbiting Earth. Magnetic compass uses Earth's magnetic field. Gyro Magnetic compasses use "the long term accuracy of the magnetic field and refine using the short term accuracy of a gyro". And that gyro has to have corrections made to it when transported from one part of the Earth's surface to another, because gyros fix themselves in space, not relative to the Earth's surface. They also need corrections while stationary, because the Earth rotates in space. Finally, inertial navigation units (INU) also use linear accelerometers (space referenced, corrected to Earth frame of reference) and gyros (angular accelerometers corrected for Earth frame of reference). The INU is not very accurate in the grand scheme of long distance space travel, but is the only one from the load of Earth navigation devices that could be used successfully in space.
PS - lowly Cessnas don't have INUs

Cheerz

Mark H

(Navigational Guru and Instructor)

Well…, I realize that this is complicated.
In my opinion there should be:

A) A “tool” where you punch in the destination coordinates and you get the right heading and distance (from where you are at the moment).
Right now In order to do this I use an excel file, with a formula that a kind (and much more clever than me) commander has posted in the forum some time ago. But isn’t it stupid to use an external application (I mean outside ED) to perform the tasks you need inside the game?

B) the ability to mark waypoints on the surface. Either by clicking on the “map” (like the bookmarks on the galaxy map) or by “planting” your own signal beacon when flying, wherever you want.

I wonder if the real life aviators out there agree

 

[Siobhan]

Well…, I realize that this is complicated.
In my opinion there should be:

A) A “tool” where you punch in the destination coordinates and you get the right heading and distance (from where you are at the moment).
Right now In order to do this I use an excel file, with a formula that a kind (and much more clever than me) commander has posted in the forum some time ago. But isn’t it stupid to use an external application (I mean outside ED) to perform the tasks you need inside the game?

B) the ability to mark waypoints on the surface. Either by clicking on the “map” (like the bookmarks on the galaxy map) or by “planting” your own signal beacon when flying, wherever you want.

I wonder if the real life aviators out there agree

Not a rl flyer, but a flight-sim enthusiast, and totally agree. Especially with regard to beacons/bookmarks.

 

[Valnik]

Not a rl flyer, but a flight-sim enthusiast, and totally agree. Especially with regard to beacons/bookmarks.

Yep, as many others have said before, surface waypoints will give much more meaning in planetary flying. Especially in those rocky landscapes that we are restricted for the time.

I remember how thrilled I was when the “barnacles” were introduced (the only persistent points on planets at that time, excluding the bases of course) and what a fun it was to try and plot a route between them, using coordinates and improvised maps.

In general there is a need for persistent meaningful features on planets, which will provide a real sense of navigation – exploration. Otherwise you are just flying over a barren landscape, beautiful and eye-catching but nevertheless boring.

A waypoint/beacon function could balance this lack.

 

[Rampant]

Yep, as many others have said before, surface waypoints will give much more meaning in planetary flying. Especially in those rocky landscapes that we are restricted for the time.

I remember how thrilled I was when the “barnacles” were introduced (the only persistent points on planets at that time, excluding the bases of course) and what a fun it was to try and plot a route between them, using coordinates and improvised maps.

In general there is a need for persistent meaningful features on planets, which will provide a real sense of navigation – exploration. Otherwise you are just flying over a barren landscape, beautiful and eye-catching but nevertheless boring.

A waypoint/beacon function could balance this lack.

Totally agree. We need more of them - persistent POIs.

And more importantly, we do actually need some way to generate our own destination waypoints. As an aviator I don't have much difficulty, but it could be so much easier to use than just the simplistic information we have - solely latitude, longitude and heading.

(I Also often wonder how the prime meridian is arbitrarily defined in E|D? Perhaps it was simply a start of the static galaxy definition such as prime meridian being closest to the body being orbited, and then subsequently *start galaxy now* was activated...)

Cheerz

Mark H

 

[Codger]

There was a bug that reversed them, it was in the patch notes. They fixed it back.

It is correct now, with latitude first (top), and longitude second (bottom), on your hud.

Unfortunately during the bug a lot of coordinates got posted with them reversed, which makes life difficult when trying to figure out which is which.