PvP Chieftain vs Cutter on the Last Day of Beta

[Martian Successor]

Just wanted to share this moment from the beta where I met CMDR Truesilver for the first time in-game and we had a duel. Twas awesome fun sparring against someone whom I regard so highly. Hope you enjoy the video guys and girls.


[video=youtube;aqhg2c-DdoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhg2c-DdoY[/video]

 

[seko]

Just wanted to share this moment from the beta where I met CMDR Truesilver for the first time in-game and we had a duel. Twas awesome fun sparring against someone whom I regard so highly. Hope you enjoy the video guys and girls.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqhg2c-DdoY

Nice vid - he hardly broke a sweat

 

[Deleted member 115407]

Nice job, Martian!

 

[Martian Successor]

Nice vid - he hardly broke a sweat

Ha, yeah there was no cracking those shields. I put the fear of God into the Chieftain's canopy engineer though

Nice job, Martian!

Thanks man.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I admire your tenacity, thanks for sharing that.
Duly repped.

 

[GJ51]

I liked the music

 

[Truesilver]

Ha ha, TY for posting this Martian. Likewise, it was great to meet such a valued fellow forum-ite at long last. Back slaps all round.

For those interested the Cutter weapon-set in the vid was (underneath) 2 x feedback cascade rails and 1 x super penetrator Imp Hammer, all long range and (top side) 2 x c3 and 2 x c2 high yield shell cannons, all gimballed, all long range.

Notwithstanding the long range mod the purpose of the cannons was to act effectively as short-range frags (and I actually fitted them in replacement for frags, wanting that slightly greater effective range). Long range is useless on gimbals unless fired at short range, lol.

The ship was not made to fight Chieftains especially or Martian in particular (it was a random encounter) but as a good all-rounder.

So basically the game-plan was to use the long range rails above around 2 km as first choice, but if necessary to use the cannons inside about 1 km (within which range chaff is of limited benefit against multiple high-speed projectiles). Gimbals were essential so as to be able to fire at a medium using the off-centre angles to stay away from my rails.

That left a gaping hole between around 1 km and 2 km, within which it is exceptionally difficult, when flying a Cutter, to shoot an evasive medium combat ship piloted by a guy like Martian.

But that's what an SLF is for...!!

Hence from my perspective the entire fight was either trying to get the Chieftain in front of my nose at over 2 km (which, wisely and not unexpectedly, Martian was reluctant to permit) or to get the Chieftain above the top of my ship and under 1 km. About the latter, you can see me trying to 'float' (upside down in the vid) above Martian frequently.

There's a bit near the end where I appear to go AFK. That was mah synthesis quiet time, lol.

Thanks once again Martian, it's always fascinating to see the other viewpoint.

o7

 

[Martian Successor]

Ha ha, TY for posting this Martian. Likewise, it was great to meet such a valued fellow forum-ite at long last. Back slaps all round.

For those interested the Cutter weapon-set in the vid was (underneath) 2 x feedback cascade rails and 1 x super penetrator Imp Hammer, all long range and (top side) 2 x c3 and 2 x c2 high yield shell cannons, all gimballed, all long range.

Notwithstanding the long range mod the purpose of the cannons was to act effectively as short-range frags (and I actually fitted them in replacement for frags, wanting that slightly greater effective range). Long range is useless on gimbals unless fired at short range, lol.

The ship was not made to fight Chieftains especially or Martian in particular (it was a random encounter) but as a good all-rounder.

So basically the game-plan was to use the long range rails above around 2 km as first choice, but if necessary to use the cannons inside about 1 km (within which range chaff is of limited benefit against multiple high-speed projectiles). Gimbals were essential so as to be able to fire at a medium using the off-centre angles to stay away from my rails.

That left a gaping hole between around 1 km and 2 km, within which it is exceptionally difficult, when flying a Cutter, to shoot an evasive medium combat ship piloted by a guy like Martian.

But that's what an SLF is for...!!

Hence from my perspective the entire fight was either trying to get the Chieftain in front of my nose at over 2 km (which, wisely and not unexpectedly, Martian was reluctant to permit) or to get the Chieftain above the top of my ship and under 1 km. About the latter, you can see me trying to 'float' (upside down in the vid) above Martian frequently.

There's a bit near the end where I appear to go AFK. That was mah synthesis quiet time, lol.

Thanks once again Martian, it's always fascinating to see the other viewpoint.

o7

Nice. Throughout the fight I was like, "This is THE guy who wrote the guides on evasive flying, you better not embarass yourself."

I was sporting a general all-rounder weapons set with 3 long range small rails (2 super pen, 1 cascade), medium focused PA with TLB and 2 large long range cannons with high yield shell. Game plan being to eventually lower shields and then go to town on modules with the HYS cannons and rails. Those shields weren't having any of it though. I think for that I would mod two APA's, one with phasing, and switch out the medium PA for a HYS canon. I'd try and crack the Cutter's canopy with a direct phasing shot to it and then last out the fight for 25 minutes, lol

The Chieftain is such a great weapons platform though and so manouverable it's just a joy to fly. I'm afraid it puts my beloved FAS out of a job, like seriously the FAS has no reason to exist after the Chieftain drops. Not sure what the devs plan to do about that. I think the Chief is great and do not want any nerfs placed on it, instead I would buff the FAS with something like a 5th utility slot, make it a great point defence platform for example.

 

[The Replicated Man]

I think the Chieftain vs a Fas would be a interesting fight.

Rinzlero7o7o7 (FAS) vs Hazmango (Chieftain)

 

[Riverside]

Nice. Throughout the fight I was like, "This is THE guy who wrote the guides on evasive flying, you better not embarass yourself."

I was sporting a general all-rounder weapons set with 3 long range small rails (2 super pen, 1 cascade), medium focused PA with TLB and 2 large long range cannons with high yield shell. Game plan being to eventually lower shields and then go to town on modules with the HYS cannons and rails. Those shields weren't having any of it though. I think for that I would mod two APA's, one with phasing, and switch out the medium PA for a HYS canon. I'd try and crack the Cutter's canopy with a direct phasing shot to it and then last out the fight for 25 minutes, lol

The Chieftain is such a great weapons platform though and so manouverable it's just a joy to fly. I'm afraid it puts my beloved FAS out of a job, like seriously the FAS has no reason to exist after the Chieftain drops. Not sure what the devs plan to do about that. I think the Chief is great and do not want any nerfs placed on it, instead I would buff the FAS with something like a 5th utility slot, make it a great point defence platform for example.

I'd be interested to see the pilots swap ships

 

[Truesilver]

Nice. Throughout the fight I was like, "This is THE guy who wrote the guides on evasive flying, you better not embarass yourself."

I was sporting a general all-rounder weapons set with 3 long range small rails (2 super pen, 1 cascade), medium focused PA with TLB and 2 large long range cannons with high yield shell. Game plan being to eventually lower shields and then go to town on modules with the HYS cannons and rails. Those shields weren't having any of it though. I think for that I would mod two APA's, one with phasing, and switch out the medium PA for a HYS canon. I'd try and crack the Cutter's canopy with a direct phasing shot to it and then last out the fight for 25 minutes, lol

The Chieftain is such a great weapons platform though and so manouverable it's just a joy to fly. I'm afraid it puts my beloved FAS out of a job, like seriously the FAS has no reason to exist after the Chieftain drops. Not sure what the devs plan to do about that. I think the Chief is great and do not want any nerfs placed on it, instead I would buff the FAS with something like a 5th utility slot, make it a great point defence platform for example.

Ah, no ... a popular misconception I'm afraid Mr Successor.

The game doesn't "know" where phasing hits a shielded ship ... there's no "direct phasing". The game just takes 12% of the damage to the shields and applies it to the hull without modification for resistances or range.

The reason we see canopies crack under phasing is because all hull damage transmits (potentially, via RNG) to the canopy, irrespective of location. Hence ships with shields up but low hull due to phasing will often lose canopy before the end.

In other words, phasing damage is without location and we can't deliberately aim for canopies (or anything else) with it, sorry!

 

[Martian Successor]

Ah, no ... a popular misconception I'm afraid Mr Successor.

The game doesn't "know" where phasing hits a shielded ship ... there's no "direct phasing". The game just takes 12% of the damage to the shields and applies it to the hull without modification for resistances or range.

The reason we see canopies crack under phasing is because all hull damage transmits (potentially, via RNG) to the canopy, irrespective of location. Hence ships with shields up but low hull due to phasing will often lose canopy before the end.

In other words, phasing damage is without location and we can't deliberately aim for canopies (or anything else) with it, sorry!

You had one job FD, one job! Make phasing great again! Well there goes that dream [haha]

I have a large phasing PA on my all PA FAS but it does 1% damage per hit. By the time it would bring down a PvP Cutter's hull we'd have space legs

Our old grizzled friend RNG once more to blame:

Spoiler

 

[Martian Successor]

I'd be interested to see the pilots swap ships

The only way it would be balanced is if I had 2 SLF multicrew and Truesilver was only allowed to use his feet to operate his joystick

 

[Truesilver]

I'd be interested to see the pilots swap ships

The only way it would be balanced is if I had 2 SLF multicrew and Truesilver was only allowed to use his feet to operate his joystick

Lol, light years too kind!

But ...

... I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this.

Assuming proper outfitting, practice and basically all-round PvP competence in the Big Ship ...

... I don't that the Big Ship + SLF ever loses to the medium. Not v Chieftain, not v FAS, not v FdL.

I think that the idea that FdL beats Big Ship + SLF is just forum bunkum. And none of the continuous TLB I ate in Beta changed one single outcome.

As the old boxing adage goes:

"A good big 'un beats a good little 'un."

But as ever with matters PvP the proof is not to be found in debate. It's put on reddit and set to music.

If I can be bothered to make a Cutter for 3.0 Live I will offer myself up as either victor or vanquished of as many FdL engagements as it takes to prove, or disprove, the point.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

Excellent thread.
Thanks for the loadout breakdowns etc.

I had a good laugh at Truesilver's ship name.
Ever polite...

 

[The Replicated Man]

Lol, light years too kind!

But ...

... I'm going to stick my neck out here and say this.

Assuming proper outfitting, practice and basically all-round PvP competence in the Big Ship ...

... I don't that the Big Ship + SLF ever loses to the medium. Not v Chieftain, not v FAS, not v FdL.

I think that the idea that FdL beats Big Ship + SLF is just forum bunkum. And none of the continuous TLB I ate in Beta changed one single outcome.

As the old boxing adage goes:

"A good big 'un beats a good little 'un."

But as ever with matters PvP the proof is not to be found in debate. It's put on reddit and set to music.

If I can be bothered to make a Cutter for 3.0 Live I will offer myself up as either victor or vanquished of as many FdL engagements as it takes to prove, or disprove, the point.

What about Feedback cascade? Any good way to counter that?

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

I'm curious why you put the super pen on the hammers and the feedback on the rails, Truesilver?

And does that also make sense on the c1/c2s of the 'Vette?

 

[Truesilver]

What about Feedback cascade? Any good way to counter that?

No 'good' way on a big ship, no. There are some flight counters (e.g. waiting for your opponent to boost past you to evade your close-up weapons, then triggering) that help to get a bit more than the 10% through, though, and bear in mind of course that if he has only one FC rail, usually you'll get about half of the size 8 SCB through, unless he has really good timing.

The true answers, though, are base shield strength + SLF.

The SLF I think is integral to the big ship's survival, big v medium.

I'm curious why you put the super pen on the hammers and the feedback on the rails, Truesilver?

And does that also make sense on the c1/c2s of the 'Vette?

Note it was one hammer and two rails. The reason was that on a big ship I would always use 2 x c2 FC rails to ensure that one single volley would take the whole 90% of any size of SCB (as I'll probably only get one chance).

Two hammers run hot and would not add much to the SCB takedown. (The firing cycle does complete slightly quicker so they would add a little if fired late, but not much.)

In contrast, one hammer can be run continuously and over time does considerably more damage than one rail (partly due to the raw stats but also due to human error in the firing initiation, at least on my part, in that I'll occasionally mistime a rail, whereas a hammer always gives me the 'on paper' damage).

Of course some prefer rails against subsystems due to the 'all in one' nature of the attack but I'm happy with either. In a fight immediately before this duel (same instance, a Viper III piloted by another friendly forum goer) the super pen hammer more than proved its worth, as it chain-fired away at the hull of the small enemy.

About the Vette it really comes down to whether you want to 'max out' your cascade with 2 x C2 (rails or Hammers) or make do with slightly less.

 

[Bob Lighthouse]

No 'good' way on a big ship, no. There are some flight counters (e.g. waiting for your opponent to boost past you to evade your close-up weapons, then triggering) that help to get a bit more than the 10% through, though, and bear in mind of course that if he has only one FC rail, usually you'll get about half of the size 8 SCB through, unless he has really good timing.

The true answers, though, are base shield strength + SLF.

The SLF I think is integral to the big ship's survival, big v medium.



Note it was one hammer and two rails. The reason was that on a big ship I would always use 2 x c2 FC rails to ensure that one single volley would take the whole 90% of any size of SCB (as I'll probably only get one chance).

Two hammers run hot and would not add much to the SCB takedown. (The firing cycle does complete slightly quicker so they would add a little if fired late, but not much.)

In contrast, one hammer can be run continuously and over time does considerably more damage than one rail (partly due to the raw stats but also due to human error in the firing initiation, at least on my part, in that I'll occasionally mistime a rail, whereas a hammer always gives me the 'on paper' damage).

Of course some prefer rails against subsystems due to the 'all in one' nature of the attack but I'm happy with either. In a fight immediately before this duel (same instance, a Viper III piloted by another friendly forum goer) the super pen hammer more than proved its worth, as it chain-fired away at the hull of the small enemy.

About the Vette it really comes down to whether you want to 'max out' your cascade with 2 x C2 (rails or Hammers) or make do with slightly less.

Ok thanks for clearing that up.
I guess my question really revolves around how much am I losing feedback cascade wise, by using c1 rails for that?

I sort of like the idea of the super pens (hammer or rail) being on a tangent in the c2s, but if I'd be better off otherwise I'd like to consider that too.

 

[Truesilver]

Ok thanks for clearing that up.
I guess my question really revolves around how much am I losing feedback cascade wise, by using c1 rails for that?

I sort of like the idea of the super pens (hammer or rail) being on a tangent in the c2s, but if I'd be better off otherwise I'd like to consider that too.

I'm not aware of definitive values but I think it pretty much scales by weapon damage on the one hand and SCB health on the other hand.

Put another way if we theorise that a c2 rail removes 45% of the charge of a class 8 SCB in one hit, then a c1 rail probably does ...

23.3 / 41.5 * 0.45 = 25% removal.

But of course that would then be correspondingly much more of a smaller SCB. And small rails have a faster firing cycle. I know that Morbad uses 2 x c1 on his Corvette.

Doesn't add much to the above but worth checking out Nerwan and Crimson Kaim's original testing on this (Mr Nerwan is one my much-missed former wingmates, may they one day return to ED):

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...Hammers-with-the-new-feedback-cascade-changes