Cockpit ice near stars... ?

[sam75]

This may be an obvious answer and I am most probably being stupid, but I have a question..... (I did search the forum first..)

I noticed that if I get "close" to a star (example Asellus Primus A at about 10.79 ls, which is 2,009,987 miles) and shut down my ship systems, the ship temperature will drop and ice will form on the cockpit screen, showing that condensation within the ship is freezing.

Is this theoretically correct? I understand that the energy emitted from the star needs a physical body to absorb the radiation and heat it up, so space itself will be cold, but surely the spaceship will heat up?

Thanks

 

[FS3DPete]

This may be an obvious answer and I am most probably being stupid, but I have a question..... (I did search the forum first..)

I noticed that if I get "close" to a star (example Asellus Primus A at about 10.79 ls, which is 2,009,987 miles) and shut down my ship systems, the ship temperature will drop and ice will form on the cockpit screen, showing that condensation within the ship is freezing.

Is this theoretically correct? I understand that the energy emitted from the star needs a physical body to absorb the radiation and heat it up, so space itself will be cold, but surely the spaceship will heat up?

Thanks

Apollo 13 was exposed to space while the heating system was switched off to conserve power for re-entry. According to the Astronauts, they closed the window shutters to stop the sun from bothering them, and the cabin temperature dropped rather significantly to the point of freezing the moisture inside.

They say it never got warm in the LM again, even after opening the windows back up. The CM had to be heated from the internal heaters once they could safely switch the power back on for re-entry.

More information can be seen here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer

 

[rootsrat]

Apollo 13 was exposed to space while the heating system (...) /snip

Great, informative post, +repped.

 

[eleanorsbee]

Apollo 13 was 91 million miles away from the sun though .... Sam was 2 million .... does that make a difference ?

 

[peteuplink]

Apollo 13 was 91 million miles away from the sun though .... Sam was 2 million .... does that make a difference ?

It does. The planet Mercury is 28.5 million miles away from the Sun and the temperature on the planet reaches 800 degrees Fahrenheit (430 degrees Celsius). Because the planet has no atmosphere to retain that heat, night time temperatures on the surface can drop to -280 degrees Fahrenheit (-170 degrees Celsius). You do get some ice formation on Mercury but only at the bottom of very deep craters where the suns light never penetrates.

At 2 million miles the temperature would be much, much hotter and there would be no formation of ice on the metal skin of a space ship as even the side of the ship that's in shadow would be heated. If not by direct sunlight, then certainly by conduction of heat from the hot side of the ship and also convection from the heat of the surrounding space.

The space shuttle's reinforced carbon-carbon heat shield was designed to withstand temperatures of up to 4,700° to ensure that the spacecraft and its passengers can survive the friction heat generated when it re-enters the atmosphere from orbit. If the shield wrapped the entire shuttle, astronauts could fly to within 1.3 million miles of the sun. But the integrity of the shield degrades rapidly above 4,700°, and the cockpit would begin to cook. Much hotter than that, the shields would fail altogether, and the vehicle would combust in less than a minute.

So no... no ice.

 

[ScottGust]

My pilot never seems to need to eat or drink or take a dump, is this theoretically possible...even its not, its a game, some features are implemented to be FUN...go figure.

 

[Spook]

My pilot never seems to need to eat or drink or take a dump, is this theoretically possible...even its not, its a game, some features are implemented to be FUN...go figure.

What do you think he's doing as soon as you log off?

"Phew - that Axis blokes finally taken a break, gangway and break out the extra soft triple-ply. There's a monster about to dock."

 

[M3SS3NG3R]

While realism must sometimes take a backseat for gameplay, I think we can agree this is an area that needs some work. This has inspired me to post some ideas in this thread. Let me know what you guys think.

 

[sam75]

Interesting stuff, thanks for the responses FS3DPete and peteuplink

 

[ScottGust]

Ur welcome

 

[Nos Feratu]

What do you think he's doing as soon as you log off?

"Phew - that Axis blokes finally taken a break, gangway and break out the extra soft triple-ply. There's a monster about to dock."

Log 'out' surely?

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

If enough radiation is getting through to melt the ice, the pilot is cooked. If enough conduction is getting through to melt the ice, the windows are opaque due to being white hot. If we allow that the ship can somehow be this close to a star, we have to assume that the windows and hull (given no shields in SC) are perfect reflectors of all but visible wavelengths. If we can even look at a star, we have to assume that the screen has a lot of control over what is getting through even on visible wavelengths anyway.

So yes, ice is perfectly consistent.

Edit:

One might think that a cooked pilot is a non sequitur to ice formation, but if enough radiation gets through to melt ice at any distance, all we have to do to cook the pilot is go a fraction closer to the star. So we must assume that we have complete control over the interior environment of the ship. So if we turn off the heating, it will get cold. But ice should form everywhere, not just on the windows.

 

[D'Kaeth]

All these reasoned thoughts ...can we /please/ get back to the poop jokes??

Kidding, of course. I have no expertise to add. Just wanted to say the original question and subsequent ideas make for great reading. Thanks all.

 

[eleanorsbee]

My pilot never seems to need to eat or drink or take a dump, is this theoretically possible...even its not, its a game, some features are implemented to be FUN...go figure.

Errr .... YOU are the pilot dude .... You eat and drink and poo when you choose ... I do it after I have docked, but feel free to hav a **** in the middle of a skirmish if you like

 

[sam75]

If enough radiation is getting through to melt the ice, the pilot is cooked. If enough conduction is getting through to melt the ice, the windows are opaque due to being white hot. If we allow that the ship can somehow be this close to a star, we have to assume that the windows and hull (given no shields in SC) are perfect reflectors of all but visible wavelengths. If we can even look at a star, we have to assume that the screen has a lot of control over what is getting through even on visible wavelengths anyway.

So yes, ice is perfectly consistent.

Edit:

One might think that a cooked pilot is a non sequitur to ice formation, but if enough radiation gets through to melt ice at any distance, all we have to do to cook the pilot is go a fraction closer to the star. So we must assume that we have complete control over the interior environment of the ship. So if we turn off the heating, it will get cold. But ice should form everywhere, not just on the windows.

I like this explanation

AXIS I think you missed the point of my question, I didn't ask if cockpit ice near stars was "fun".... but you get back you your poo fetish

 

[peteuplink]

If enough radiation is getting through to melt the ice, the pilot is cooked. If enough conduction is getting through to melt the ice, the windows are opaque due to being white hot. If we allow that the ship can somehow be this close to a star, we have to assume that the windows and hull (given no shields in SC) are perfect reflectors of all but visible wavelengths. If we can even look at a star, we have to assume that the screen has a lot of control over what is getting through even on visible wavelengths anyway.

So yes, ice is perfectly consistent.

Edit:

One might think that a cooked pilot is a non sequitur to ice formation, but if enough radiation gets through to melt ice at any distance, all we have to do to cook the pilot is go a fraction closer to the star. So we must assume that we have complete control over the interior environment of the ship. So if we turn off the heating, it will get cold. But ice should form everywhere, not just on the windows.

Unless you were in a parallel universe where the laws of thermodynamics make no sense, then you wouldn't get ice on any part of the ship if we were 2 million miles away from a hot object like a star. As I said in my above post, Mercury is 28.5 million miles away from the Sun and the only place where ice forms on Mercury is at the bottom of very deep craters where the suns light and radiation never penetrates. It doesn't form on any other part of the planet, not even on the dark side, as the surface temperature is to hot and it evaporates.

If ice can't form on a planet that's 28.5 million miles away from the sun, then it'll never form on an object that's less than 2 million miles away.

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/ice/ice_mercury.html

For ice to form you need water to be present, but water ice on the surface of the ship would evaporate directly to vacuum, and will rapidly sublime and escape into space unless it is kept cold at all times. Even if the inside of the ship is kept cool, the outside would still be incredibly hot and ice would not form... Unless, and this is where Elite's science may work in it's favour, the ship was protected by something that keeps it cool... Like the shields.

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

Unless you were in a parallel universe where the laws of thermodynamics make no sense, then we wouldn't get ice on any part of the ship if we were 2 million miles away from a hot object like a star. As I said in my above post, Mercury is 28.5 million miles away from the Sun and the only place where ice forms on Mercury is at the bottom of very deep craters where the suns light and radiation never penetrates. It doesn't form on any other part of the planet, not even on the dark side, as the surface temperature is to hot and it evaporates.

http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/ice/ice_mercury.html

For ice to form you need water to be present, but water ice on the surface of the ship would evaporate directly to vacuum, and will rapidly sublime and escape into space unless it is kept cold at all times. Even if the inside of the ship is kept cool, the outside would still be incredibly hot and ice would not form... Unless, and this is where Elite's science may work in it's favour, the ship was protected by something that keeps it cool... Like the shields.

No shields in SC. But of course the ice can only form on the inside, which is what the OP was asking about. Since people can exist inside, we have to be able to stop all radiation getting in anyway, which removes any requirement for proximity to the star to be an argument.

As I said above, if at any proximity to the star we allow radiation into the ship, the whole thing is broken (because we have made the interior uninhabitable). We have to have no radiation getting in at all to contemplate getting that close to a star.

But of course it's not real.

But if it were, within its constraints, ice is perfectly consistent.

 

[peteuplink]

No shields in SC. But of course the ice can only form on the inside, which is what the OP was asking about. Since people can exist inside, we have to be able to stop all radiation getting in anyway, which removes any requirement for proximity to the star to be an argument.

As I said above, if at any proximity to the star we allow radiation into the ship, the whole thing is broken (because we have made the interior uninhabitable). We have to have no radiation getting in at all to contemplate getting that close to a star.

But of course it's not real.

But if it were, within its constraints, ice is perfectly consistent.

But isn't the player talking about shutting everything down? I thought that wasn't possible in SC?

I noticed that if I get "close" to a star (example Asellus Primus A at about 10.79 ls, which is 2,009,987 miles) and shut down my ship systems, the ship temperature will drop and ice will form on the cockpit screen, showing that condensation within the ship is freezing.

There are shields in SC, they just don't recharge when you're in SC. But they're still on and reading 100% (or less if you've been hit) when you jump.

I must admit that I'm not sure how we could keep radiation out of the ship if the power systems were off and you were so close to a star. The environmental controls in the cockpit would be powered by the system and so if it was turned off the outside heat would quickly penetrate the ships hull through conduction and it would be cooked in a less than a minute at such a close range. Unless its made of some super material that reflects all heat, or is protected by the shields.

Unless the cooling is a powered system and the ships environmental controls are designed to work like a freezer unit that actually cools the interior of the ship to disguise it's heat signature... But why would you do something so foolish? It's dangerous for the pilot unless they're wearing some sort of protective suit... which they may be I've never heard that explained in Elite lore.

I say that this is one thing that we're going to have to accept works within the games "science", in the same way that people just accept that The Doctor flies around in a gigantic space ship that's squashed into a 5 foot by 9 foot box and can travel through time... it works because it does. :smilie:

 

[Hotblack Desiato]

I must admit that I'm not sure how we could keep radiation out of the ship if the power systems were off and you were so close to a star. The environmental controls in the cockpit would be powered by the system and so if it was turned off the outside heat would quickly penetrate the ships hull through conduction and it would be cooked in a less than a minute at such a close range.

Unless the cooling is a powered system and the ships environmental controls are designed to work like a freezer unit that actually cools the interior of the ship to disguise it's heat signature... But why would you do something so foolish? It's dangerous for the pilot unless they're wearing some sort of protective suit... which they may be I've never heard that explained in Elite lore.

I say that this is one thing that we're going to have to accept works within the games "science", in the same way that people just accept that The Doctor flies around in a gigantic space ship that's squashed into a 5 foot by 9 foot box and can travel through time... it works because it does. :smilie:

Yep... but one final note - for any of it to work, if it ever did, the ship must be totally reflective except for visible light. Which means that it must be actively heated within. So if you turn off the heaters, you get freezing condensation.

 

[sam75]

But isn't the player talking about shutting everything down? I thought that wasn't possible in SC?

Yes I used SC to get as close to the star as possible until the "too close" alert kicked me into normal flight, then I stopped the ship and turned all systems off...