Combat discussion - length, PvP, and fun. How do we reconcile all three?

[KaizoMK]

One of the things I've wondered about is combat length, and according to the devs they're also discussing it. As a strictly solo player, I'm used to combat ranging from a few seconds to a few minutes, more in the case of a wing and lots of running away on my part. I think the short intense (ish?) bouts are the way to go. If you die in solo, it's rarely in a brief encounter unless there's a massive power disparity. Usually you have a few minutes to at least try to get away.

Enter open. It's more or less the same thing except somebody has to die. That gets frustrating because every death means loss, and such a loss can potentially set you back MASSIVELY. Not necessarily bad, but I feel death is indeed more likely in open, virtually inevitable, and is obviously made worse by flat griefing style murder. In other games with death penalty, PvP generally ignores the death penalty because dying to a pc is more likely and generally kind of sucks. I can't for the life of me think of a good way to implement this in ED without it being horribly exploitable, but you guys are smart.


So I have two questions:

1) how long should combat last, generally? Should the times differ between pve and PvP, as to perhaps make player fights last longer and seem less anti climactic?

2) is there a clever way to alter the death penalty, such that being flat out murdered by a pc gives you a pass on the insurance? Would we even want to do that?

Thoughts?

 

[lefty1117]

Maybe they should consider an opt-in flag for pvp, to encourage more to play in Open. That can be balanced a number of ways, such as certain mission types requiring you to be pvp enabled, or certain instance types, etc. It would cut down on the senseless murder for people just passing through but still make pvp prominent in the areas where it should be - for example if you're carrying merits or propaganda, you should be pvp flagged automatically. Just a thought, have not really thought it through fully.

An alternative would be to drastically enhance the security system to be something more akin to EVE online, where you have very high security newbie systems with an overwhelming NPC security response, and other systems that have a slower or less response. Security levels exist in the game but don't seem to be very prominent and are not effective at curbing player behavior.

 

[Kazacy]

One of the things I've wondered about is combat length, and according to the devs they're also discussing it. As a strictly solo player, I'm used to combat ranging from a few seconds to a few minutes, more in the case of a wing and lots of running away on my part. I think the short intense (ish?) bouts are the way to go. If you die in solo, it's rarely in a brief encounter unless there's a massive power disparity. Usually you have a few minutes to at least try to get away.

Enter open. It's more or less the same thing except somebody has to die. That gets frustrating because every death means loss, and such a loss can potentially set you back MASSIVELY. Not necessarily bad, but I feel death is indeed more likely in open, virtually inevitable, and is obviously made worse by flat griefing style murder. In other games with death penalty, PvP generally ignores the death penalty because dying to a pc is more likely and generally kind of sucks. I can't for the life of me think of a good way to implement this in ED without it being horribly exploitable, but you guys are smart.


So I have two questions:

1) how long should combat last, generally? Should the times differ between pve and PvP, as to perhaps make player fights last longer and seem less anti climactic?

2) is there a clever way to alter the death penalty, such that being flat out murdered by a pc gives you a pass on the insurance? Would we even want to do that?

Thoughts?

For the first point i am not really sure what you really want, and for the second point i think i can resume for you:
- i want to play in the open without consequences (aka killed by a player); my question is why the death from a player should be treated differently than death from a npc? Death is death (and in this game is more like a property damage), and thanks to the insurance we pay a measly 5% from the value of the ship and modules. What if the insurance is 0? Killed by an npc will be the same for you as killed by a player?

EDIT: for lefty: in my opinion if you log on the open you have the pvp flag already activated. Enjoy!

 

[Starbuckz]

So I have two questions:

1) how long should combat last, generally? Should the times differ between pve and PvP, as to perhaps make player fights last longer and seem less anti climactic?

2) is there a clever way to alter the death penalty, such that being flat out murdered by a pc gives you a pass on the insurance? Would we even want to do that?

Thoughts?

1. It should last as long as the pilots' skill allow it to last. By that I mean someone shouldn't be able to prolong it when he is clearly inferior to his opponent. Mistakes are not being punished enough in ED. Fights should be very short if there is one side obviously stronger than the other.
An equal fight could go on forever, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B5rnBQZpJY (do not shoot me, okay? I just think THIS is an awesome example for how a space fight should be). Fly in a straight line? You're dead. Turning too sharply? You're dead..... you get the point.

2. Pros: more pvp Cons: more griefing, and just no thrill to it...

 

[lefty1117]

EDIT: for lefty: in my opinion if you log on the open you have the pvp flag already activated. Enjoy!

That is true. I'm just suggesting an alternative way to cut down on murder but encourage more Open play. Personally I think having Solo & private group is a big mistake and undermines the MMO aspects of this game. They should have gone in one direction or the other, single or multiplayer, not this middle road which is far too easy to exploit - and only ends up making both sides unhappy.

 

[Kazacy]

That is true. I'm just suggesting an alternative way to cut down on murder but encourage more Open play. Personally I think having Solo & private group is a big mistake and undermines the MMO aspects of this game. They should have gone in one direction or the other, single or multiplayer, not this middle road which is far too easy to exploit - and only ends up making both sides unhappy.

I couldn't agree more; in my opinion separate saves for solo/private and open without interferences for powerplay (meaning your actions in solo cannot affect people in open). Then we can talk about gradual security in systems, not a bad idea in my opinion, and i consider myself somehow a pirate.

 

[Iskariot]

1) how long should combat last, generally?

I am happy with the way it is now.

2) is there a clever way to alter the death penalty, such that being flat out murdered by a pc gives you a pass on the insurance? Would we even want to do that?

I am happy with the way it is now.

 

[CMDR Zantiry Kaine]

For point 1, could be a tough call. Too short and it just isn't much fun, but too long and it usually degrades into an endless circling match to see who slips first.

For the second point, I would love to see it done the way GTA online handles it. If your not a valid target (Wanted, belonging to an opposing power etc.) and someone blows up your ride, THEY pay the insurance lol. If you were a valid target, its handled as it is now. An alternate system would be based on the fact that we are all members of the pilots federation. You kill a fellow member without just cause and you get a penalty against your pilots fed rank similar to how you lose rep in the major factions for killing their ships.

 

[KaizoMK]

Maybe they should consider an opt-in flag for pvp, to encourage more to play in Open. That can be balanced a number of ways, such as certain mission types requiring you to be pvp enabled, or certain instance types, etc. It would cut down on the senseless murder for people just passing through but still make pvp prominent in the areas where it should be - for example if you're carrying merits or propaganda, you should be pvp flagged automatically. Just a thought, have not really thought it through fully.

An alternative would be to drastically enhance the security system to be something more akin to EVE online, where you have very high security newbie systems with an overwhelming NPC security response, and other systems that have a slower or less response. Security levels exist in the game but don't seem to be very prominent and are not effective at curbing player behavior.

The problem is that it's super cheesy if there's a ship in existence that's seemingly invulnerable to your attacks. It is interesting, being PvP flagged when taking part in powerplay activities...makes a ton of sense. The real issue with pk is that senseless killing isn't met with the right security anywhere, so the penalty for it is nil, while the penalty for death is usually quite meaningful to the victim. Having systems with excellent security response time would be great, I would even be okay with it instantly happening.

@kazacy, PvP and pve are incredibly different in how they're perceived at the least. Dying at all in pve sucks, but the fault is always with the victim (or the system, if the system is terrible. Not the case most of the time in ED.) In PvP the fault lies with the aggressor, which is usually not the dead player. Death being largely out of your hands is a substantial penalty over the normal cost of a new ship. And that's even excluding station briefing.

I feel that pk absolutely has a place in this game, but the penalty of being out of your control ought to be taken into account, somehow.

 

[CMDR Derrida]

PVP does last a lot longer between 'combat ready' ships unless you're out numbered (and even the you can usually system jump out of there). Unfortunately there is a vicious circle in Power Play at the moment where combat ships undermining systems mostly come up against ships delivering media, and vice versa. All they need to do is give a few merits for hanging out in your own system and defending to change this: Combat ships face combat ships.
I have no idea if this answered either of your questions, but I hope it party did, somewhere.

 

[KaizoMK]

For point 1, could be a tough call. Too short and it just isn't much fun, but too long and it usually degrades into an endless circling match to see who slips first.

For the second point, I would love to see it done the way GTA online handles it. If your not a valid target (Wanted, belonging to an opposing power etc.) and someone blows up your ride, THEY pay the insurance lol. If you were a valid target, its handled as it is now. An alternate system would be based on the fact that we are all members of the pilots federation. You kill a fellow member without just cause and you get a penalty against your pilots fed rank similar to how you lose rep in the major factions for killing their ships.

The rank penalty rubs me the wrong way, but hell yea in the insurance. XD

 

[Distance]

Between two competent pvp players no one dies unless they want to stick around and fight to the death due to shield cells, boosters, high wake jumps and interdiction cooldown.

 

[CMDR Zantiry Kaine]

The rank penalty rubs me the wrong way, but hell yea in the insurance. XD

Yea the rank penalty bit was worded kinda badly on my part. I didn't mean you would lose progress in your elite rank. More like an extra reputation system of ranking so you get an extra tag when targeted. For example instead of showing as dangerous it would be dangerous - unfriendly or dangerous - hostile. The tag would also make you fair game for anyone to attack. Although that would probably just be considered a prize for the griefers so probably wouldnt help anything, and might even make it a bit worse as people went for the tags so...yea not my brightest idea lol

 

[GluttonyFang]

One of the things I've wondered about is combat length, and according to the devs they're also discussing it. As a strictly solo player, I'm used to combat ranging from a few seconds to a few minutes, more in the case of a wing and lots of running away on my part. I think the short intense (ish?) bouts are the way to go. If you die in solo, it's rarely in a brief encounter unless there's a massive power disparity. Usually you have a few minutes to at least try to get away.

Enter open. It's more or less the same thing except somebody has to die. That gets frustrating because every death means loss, and such a loss can potentially set you back MASSIVELY. Not necessarily bad, but I feel death is indeed more likely in open, virtually inevitable, and is obviously made worse by flat griefing style murder. In other games with death penalty, PvP generally ignores the death penalty because dying to a pc is more likely and generally kind of sucks. I can't for the life of me think of a good way to implement this in ED without it being horribly exploitable, but you guys are smart.


So I have two questions:

1) how long should combat last, generally? Should the times differ between pve and PvP, as to perhaps make player fights last longer and seem less anti climactic?

2) is there a clever way to alter the death penalty, such that being flat out murdered by a pc gives you a pass on the insurance? Would we even want to do that?

Thoughts?

First of all, face-planted into a wall of Solo/PvE bias is taking a little time for me to recover, so give me one second.

... Why the hell are NPC caused death any different from Player caused death? Death is a death. When you have the option to high-wake out of any situation you dislike and low-waking out of super cruise the moment you see a player in the instance with you. Bottom line 15 seconds wait and legitimate (oh god I am laughing) combat log. what more do you want?

1. Fight lengths are determined by the current shield meta, shield down = get the hell out. Whoever stacks more shield cell banks win, use the meta weapons or die. Ganking is a valid tactic and something easy to escape from with high-wake.

"You won't die unless you want to die" is the current state of the game in terms of PvP.

2. Why are we appeasing people who do not even have the resolve to lose anything to begin with? If this is Elite Dangerous, make it dangerous.

 

[Morbad]

Enter open. It's more or less the same thing except somebody has to die.

I've spent a lot of time fighting other CMDRs, and probably 60-70% of the engagements I'm in result in one party or the other successfully disengaging, not exploding.

1) how long should combat last, generally? Should the times differ between pve and PvP, as to perhaps make player fights last longer and seem less anti climactic?

As long as it takes.

I've had active combats last anywhere from the amount of time it takes a boosting Clipper to cross a 600m gap (not long), to constant pursuit with multiple engagements where I though my shoulder would give out before the ships involved.

2) is there a clever way to alter the death penalty, such that being flat out murdered by a pc gives you a pass on the insurance? Would we even want to do that?

I would not find a lesser ship loss penalty desirable. What's the point in shooting someone down if they aren't going to feel the loss? What fun is risk free combat?

If people want a friendly sparring match, that can already be done easily enough. Real combat is about bleeding your opponent's will and ability to oppose you by inflicting tangible losses that either convince them to stay away or become so expensive that they have to farm more money before harassing you further, or which at least contain credible potential for such loss.