Combat Feedback Three

[xdeath]

I made a couple posts a while back detailing my feedback on combat during the alpha. Now I am here again summarizing my points and adding a few more things that I have noticed. A number of other posters on the forums as well pointed out issues with combat. It seems that NONE of their issues were addressed at all. It was disappointing.

There are a few things I want to get out of the way first.

1. Frontier stated in a PC Gamer magazine interview, that they wanted combat to fall somewhere between Call of Duty and ArmA. They did not want it to be an arcade shooter. It’s very clear to me that they backpedalled on this. I’m not going to bring this up. I am going to focus on the combat and game as it stands on its own, for the most part.
2. For some reason, Halo was brought up in previous threads as being similar to Odyssey’s combat. Except Halo is fun. I’ve recently started a playthrough of the MC Collection. Halo does NOT have the ridiculous sponge that Odyssey has.
3. Frontier is a very talented group of developers. They have the ability to make this work.
4. A lot of this is OPINION. That being said, I know it is shared by a lot of other people.
5. Meta refers to Shields and Armour vs. Kinetic and Thermal. I don’t want to re-explain this every time.
6. My focus is on PvE, and primarily on the lone CMDR experience. Yet I imagine that any change I suggest would benefit the PvP as well.
7. There are Rank Zero NPCs. These are civilians. I have not included them in any of my analyses or critiques.

So, starting off, there is no way around this, Odyssey’s combat is bad. Enemies are too spongy, even at lower ranks. The meta is way too prevalent. The AI is built around the aforementioned sponge and meta, making them annoying and a bit dumb. The grind is built to provide a sense of progression, but in all reality, it just eases the frustration. All of this creates a tedious, chore-like experience where the fun is short lived. It’s an arcade-like experience, but pales in comparison to its contemporaries.

First, the sponge.
For the unaware, this refers to the amount of hits an enemy can absorb before falling.

Currently, a single bar of shield takes 5 laser hits to drop(from the laser rifle). This doesn’t seem too bad at first, but an enemy has a bar of shield for every rank. Currently, I have seen as high as rank five. In addition, there is still the armour/health to cut through after the shields.
It is a little bit harder to measure amour. I’m certain it gets stronger between ranks, but it is always one solid bar of armour. In addition, there is location based damage, so it is hard to tell the exact number of hits it takes to drop someone.

The TK Aphelion, laser rifle, has 25 shots in a magazine.
Obviously, it takes 25 hits with the laser rifle to drop a rank five enemies shields. However, you are not going to land every hit. So it’s going to be two reloads just to take out the shields. The shield recharge delay is very short, only a few seconds. While you are trying to take down their health with your kinetic rifle, their shields are likely to recharge. The recharge starts at about 50% so it’s back to the laser rifle to take them down again.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the meta was non-existent. That the laser rifle did the same damage to health/armour as it did shields. If you landed every shot, you would have to reload twice, or three times if the shield recharged. Realistically, you are looking at 5-6. Two reloads to take down shields, two for health, and 1 or 2 more for every time the shields recharge.
What caps this off, is that these are not singular enemies. They spawn in groups of all the same rank. They are not static either. They will retreat to cover when their shields drop. They will shoot back at you.
You simply do not have enough resources to take out any rank 5 npcs(before upgrading).

What throws a wrench into this already awful system, is the Plasma “sniper” rifle. I haven’t much experience with this weapon, but it takes out shields usually in one hit, same with health. A magazine has three shots. I’m not sure how effective it is against higher ranked NPCs. This makes this weapon the optimal choice. It’s only downside? It’s a slow moving projectile so you have to lead targets a bit.
The stark difference in this weapon's effectiveness vs other weapons is astounding. It’s unbalanced to the extreme.

The Meta Prevalence
This is where the sponge gets even worse. It is so prevalent. It’s not just optimal, it is necessary to use thermal against shields kinetic against armour. Take, for example, a rank one npc. 5 from the laser rifle shots to take out shields, but the remaining 20 shots in your magazine will not take out their health.
What this leads to is constant, clunky weapon swapping just to take out singular targets. This wouldn’t be so bad if it was limited to higher ranked npcs. However, it is necessary for ALL ranks of NPCs.
The aforementioned Plasma sniper rifle again throws a wrench into this, showing again, how unbalanced it is.

Combining the above two points on Meta and Sponge.
Rank 1 NPCs are supposed to be canon fodder. They should go down easy, and they do, in a way. But it takes too long, and it takes too much ammunition.

The AI
For the most part, the AI is designed around close range combat. I found it very inconsistent. If you are outside of medium range. They seem to be unable to hit you. They are easy to lose around corners. Yet, at times, they show some intelligence. Such as spreading out to flank you and using terrain dips and rises as cover.
I think the AI could be good, but it is intentionally designed around the above gameplay design choices.

Upgrades and The Grind
This is a hard one to pin down. It simply doesn’t make ANY SENSE.
Not only that, it’s worse than the grind in the base game. You can get by without grinding in the base game, but it almost feels like a necessity in Odyssey.
Full disclosure, I have not done any upgrades in Odyssey.

Weapon and armour upgrades increase damage dealt, decrease damage taken, and allow for mods. Because the upgrade components are not easy(relatively speaking) to come by, it becomes a grind.
Here is the problem, though, the combat is not fun at the start. The grind is there to ease the frustration. Which is the wrong way to do a grind.
In a good grindy MMO, it’s fun at the start, and the grind rewards you with more fun. Additionally, the activity of the grind itself is usually fun.
So, when it comes to Odyssey.
It’s not fun at the start.
The Grind doesn’t make it more fun, just eases frustration.
The actual grinding activities are a 50-50 of fun/not fun.

The worst thing is, they took the mobile game strategy of grind by making it frustrating, but didn’t give an option to pay to skip the grind. I’m not advocating for pay to win. What I want is for this to be removed. It’s mobile mechanics without the business model.

From what I understand(correct me if I am wrong, please), in addition to special mods, basic mods are installed by engineers. Basic mods being, scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors. This doesn’t make any sense. Even in real life, your average gun owner should be able to install any of those things on the appropriate weapon. It simply does not make any sense that this is gated behind upgrading both for the mod slot and the engineer to install the mod.

Lastly, sniper rifles, in games, need to be fired while aiming. Otherwise, they are incredibly inaccurate. This is designed to prevent them from being used effectively at close range. The Plasma Sniper Rifle is initially equipped with a short range scope, making it effective at close range. It’s more effective at close range than the shotgun, and it’s three shots before reload compared to shotguns two shots. It’s so unbalanced.

All in all, combat is frustrating, unbalanced, and, in my opinion, counter to the true spirit of Elite, but... it doesn't end there.

The SRV
Even more effective than the plasma sniper rifle is the SRV. This thing can mow down NPC’s left and right. They have no decent defense against it, nor a counter. Even rank five NPCs are chewed up.
Worse still, it is too easy. I am torn between going on foot and enduring the frustration, or using the SRV and having no challenge.

Grenades
Does anybody use these?
The problem is this, the low gravity causes the grenades to bounce like crazy. This does not affect NPCs it seems. I’ve noticed that their grenades don’t seem to bounce the same way.
Just an observation.

The weapons don’t sound overly great
In a game with stellar sound design, this is a little disappointing.

Confined combat arenas
There are a lot of great locales to use. The alpha release had some really great rock scattering and fungal forests, these would make great battle fields. Only having combat zones in a settlement would not be taking advantage of all that Elite/Odyssey have to offer.

Encounter Stages
This has been a problem since Horizons. There is combat on the planet surface, and there is ship to ship combat in space. There is very little ship to ship combat above the planet surface, and a lot of that combat has to be instigated by the player. The new POI’s are not guarded by ships.

Headshots
Headshots on an unshielded target are not lethal, outside of the plasma sniper rifle.

Lack of diverse enemies
As of now, there are only 5 ranks of human NPCs.

The Artemis suit has weapon slots, but at what point are you going to use them while studying plants?

Proposed solutions and Suggestions
It is important in constructive criticism to provide potential solutions and fixes.

What would make the biggest difference, in my opinion, would be the outright removal of the linear upgrade system from the weapons. They should always do their maximum amount of damage.
This achieves two things right away:

1. It would reduce the sponge/TTK.
2. Removes the tedious grind.

In turn, it reduces the frustrating chore experience of combat and grind, making it more fun.

Basic mods, such as improved scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors should not require an engineer.

The plasma sniper rifle should be altered.

• The projectile should be faster, and just as lethal.
• NPCs should spawn less frequently with this weapon, and have an accuracy that reflects their rank.
• The rifle should have a long range scope by default.
• The rate of fire should be reduced. It should be 1 shot before reloading, to compensate for its lethality, and make it a less effective short range weapon.

In addition to the above, the effectiveness of armour and shields should be reduced in a range of 25-50% both to the players and NPCs. This is to encourage the use of cover, range, and using the appropriate weapon for a given situation.

NPCs should make effective use of cover, and players should have the ability to lean out of cover. It just looks silly that all the combatants are standing out in the open shooting at each other. The pre-alpha mission footage that they showed was slammed for that.

Reduce the meta prevalence
IMO, I find this to be the worst. The weapon swapping is clunky, and weird
While wearing the Artemis or Maverick suit, the weirdness comes from having to switch to a pistol in the midst of combat when you have a rifle. A side arm is not meant to be used in that way. It is supposed to be a backup weapon.
Regardless of your approach(Laser Rifle, Kinetic Pistol, or Kinetic Rifle, Laser Pistol), it just makes no sense to use a pistol when you have a rifle.

Reducing the meta would allow you to be more diverse when using the dominator suit. Right now, other than the plasma sniper rifle, the optimal loadout is Laser Rifle + Kinetic Rifle.

The SRV
Have barricades or portable bunkers in POIs for NPCs to retreat to when they are attacked by an SRV. Not for every POI, but for some at least.
Have NPCs retreat to interiors when in settlements or retreat to cover.
Point is, make it difficult for the player to get a lock on them.
What you SHOULDN’T do, is counter SRV usage by super buffing ground weapons/shields or nerfing the SRV. Personally, I think that handheld weapons are already too effective against vehicles.
The actual weapon counter to the SRV, and other vehicles, is the rocket launcher. Certain NPCs should be equipped with the rocket launcher, which they prefer to use against vehicles.
Other different types of weapons could be introduced. Such as a shouldered laser cannon that is too clunky to work on human targets, but works on vehicles.

Encounter Stages
Have POIs that have air support. So you fight a ship above the POI then land to engage ground forces. This way simple encounters occur in stages, and it’s just fun.

Enemy Diversity
Have enemies of different ranks spawn in the same group.
Have different types of enemies, such as powered armour or robots, that require different strategies to bring them down.

Thanks for reading. PS
I think my points are a little weak in some areas because I just didn't have the time to mull over them. I am hoping, through discussion, that we can make a good case for some form of better combat. I really want this game to succeed.

 

[TJX]

Definitely could use lean functions to peak and fire from cover or at least some sort of third person sticky cover system. To me that would make combat feel kind of tactical.

Also being able to go prone is definitely needed in this game especially if we're fighting in open barren environments.

 

[xdeath]

Definitely could use lean functions to peak and fire from cover or at least some sort of third person sticky cover system. To me that would make combat feel kind of tactical.

Also being able to go prone is definitely needed in this game especially if we're fighting in open barren environments.

Agree on the Prone.
A binocular or zoom system, both for on foot, and in vehicles is also a necessity.
Space legs and FPS has been talked about since kickstarter. It is a bit difficult to find now, but I recall that the general consensus from the backers being a deep tactical system akin to ArmA.
Now, while I would prefer that, I understand that the playerbase might not want an experience as hardcore as ArmA. I would be happy with an ArmA-lite, if you will.
What I am absolutely not happy with, is the system as it currently stands. Even if they toned it down to Halo's level, it would be a substantial improvement. Not what I would prefer, but better than the current system.

I really hate to say this, but it is garbage. I am absolutely baffled about the state of Odyssey right now.
Combat is bad.
Progression is bad.
Exploration is a loosely tacked on system. It's not bad, but so... lacking.
Stealth could work, but is a little janky and lacking stealth mechanics and UI.
Salvaging is surprisingly good, but will get stale rather quickly.

If I was to hazard a guess, this wasn't focus tested. Or, it was in the alpha, but they didn't have time to respond to the feedback.
Since they have reworked systems before, I hope they do the same for combat. By improving the combat, they could, possibly, turn this update around.

 

[knollengnom]

+1

@xdeath Thank you very much for this great summary of the current issues, which IMHO are really holding back the game, as well as the countless suggestions on how to improve them. I couldn't agree more.

It is indeed a little sad that pretty much all of these problems had been raised during alpha already and were not addressed at all, but maybe there were simply too many more pressing issues to be dealt with first. Seeing launch day, this appears likely. So let's just hope for the best.
I also hope FDev saved the alpha forum contents before taking them down, I remember dozens upon dozens of pages of good and constructive discussions on how combat could be improved there.

 

[xdeath]

+1

@xdeath Thank you very much for this great summary of the current issues, which IMHO are really holding back the game, as well as the countless suggestions on how to improve them. I couldn't agree more.

It's very important, I feel, to focus hard on whatever issue bothers you the most.
For me, it was combat. I genuinely believed that if combat wasn't fixed by release, that Odyssey would get a lot of backlash.
The central component to Odyssey, largely underwhelming, where the fun is gated behind a really bad progression system.
There are a number of other issues I have with Odyssey, but I want to focus on this one first.

It is indeed a little sad that pretty much all of these problems had been raised during alpha already and were not addressed at all, but maybe there were simply too many more pressing issues to be dealt with first. Seeing launch day, this appears likely. So let's just hope for the best.
I also hope FDev saved the alpha forum contents before taking them down, I remember dozens upon dozens of pages of good and constructive discussions on how combat could be improved there.

I think it was down to resources and time. When they gave Odyssey's release date on May 19th, so soon after the alpha. I knew there was no time to change anything.
I guess we also all knew that the early PC release was a beta for the console. Originally, I thought it was going to be a performance and graphics thing, but now, it seams to cover gameplay as well.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

First, the sponge.
For the unaware, this refers to the amount of hits an enemy can absorb before falling.

Currently, a single bar of shield takes 5 laser hits to drop(from the laser rifle). This doesn’t seem too bad at first, but an enemy has a bar of shield for every rank. Currently, I have seen as high as rank five. In addition, there is still the armour/health to cut through after the shields.
It is a little bit harder to measure amour. I’m certain it gets stronger between ranks, but it is always one solid bar of armour. In addition, there is location based damage, so it is hard to tell the exact number of hits it takes to drop someone.

The TK Aphelion, laser rifle, has 25 shots in a magazine.
Obviously, it takes 25 hits with the laser rifle to drop a rank five enemies shields. However, you are not going to land every hit. So it’s going to be two reloads just to take out the shields. The shield recharge delay is very short, only a few seconds. While you are trying to take down their health with your kinetic rifle, their shields are likely to recharge. The recharge starts at about 50% so it’s back to the laser rifle to take them down again.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the meta was non-existent. That the laser rifle did the same damage to health/armour as it did shields. If you landed every shot, you would have to reload twice, or three times if the shield recharged. Realistically, you are looking at 5-6. Two reloads to take down shields, two for health, and 1 or 2 more for every time the shields recharge.
What caps this off, is that these are not singular enemies. They spawn in groups of all the same rank. They are not static either. They will retreat to cover when their shields drop. They will shoot back at you.
You simply do not have enough resources to take out any rank 5 npcs(before upgrading).

I also pointed out the ridiculous Time-To-Kill (TTK) values in Odyssey. It seems like Frontier factored in G5 weapons and Engineering upgrades from the start, and therefore it is expected that they player grinds out upgrades or suffers longer TTKs vs. NPCs.

What throws a wrench into this already awful system, is the Plasma “sniper” rifle. I haven’t much experience with this weapon, but it takes out shields usually in one hit, same with health. A magazine has three shots. I’m not sure how effective it is against higher ranked NPCs. This makes this weapon the optimal choice. It’s only downside? It’s a slow moving projectile so you have to lead targets a bit.
The stark difference in this weapon's effectiveness vs other weapons is astounding. It’s unbalanced to the extreme.

It's not that the Executioner is unbalanced... it's that all other options are vastly underperforming, maybe save for the shotgun. The Executioner is the only one that is capable of quickly and reliably eliminating opponents, which is especially vital when you're assaulting settlements alone. Everything else results in an elongated spongefest where you're quickly surrounded by seven other guards while you're still on number one.

...I did point out in the Alpha forums that we should have tested the plasma weapons in the Alpha, and that we should have weapon balancing discussions in Phase 2 of the Alpha, but hey - better late than never, I guess.

The Meta Prevalence
This is where the sponge gets even worse. It is so prevalent. It’s not just optimal, it is necessary to use thermal against shields kinetic against armour. Take, for example, a rank one npc. 5 from the laser rifle shots to take out shields, but the remaining 20 shots in your magazine will not take out their health.
What this leads to is constant, clunky weapon swapping just to take out singular targets. This wouldn’t be so bad if it was limited to higher ranked npcs. However, it is necessary for ALL ranks of NPCs.
The aforementioned Plasma sniper rifle again throws a wrench into this, showing again, how unbalanced it is.

Combining the above two points on Meta and Sponge.
Rank 1 NPCs are supposed to be canon fodder. They should go down easy, and they do, in a way. But it takes too long, and it takes too much ammunition.

Pretty much my sentiment exactly, save for the Executioner (see my comments above). I don't like the weapon swapping and the damage resistances are far too extreme for mismatched damage types, so I'm relying on plasma weapons instead. Even with a G2 Oppressor (plasma rifle) I need to dump the majority of a 50 round magazine into an NPC in a Low CZ to kill them at close range.

The AI
For the most part, the AI is designed around close range combat. I found it very inconsistent. If you are outside of medium range. They seem to be unable to hit you. They are easy to lose around corners. Yet, at times, they show some intelligence. Such as spreading out to flank you and using terrain dips and rises as cover.
I think the AI could be good, but it is intentionally designed around the above gameplay design choices.

I'm pretty certain all the NPCs I fight got their training from Lord Shaxx from Destiny 2 because they throw ALL THE GRENADES!

Seriously - I could be right in the face of a Striker and they (and their buddies) decide to whip out their grenades instead. I never lose my shields to gunfire in CZs - just those shield buster grenades.

Upgrades and The Grind
This is a hard one to pin down. It simply doesn’t make ANY SENSE.
Not only that, it’s worse than the grind in the base game. You can get by without grinding in the base game, but it almost feels like a necessity in Odyssey.
Full disclosure, I have not done any upgrades in Odyssey.

Weapon and armour upgrades increase damage dealt, decrease damage taken, and allow for mods. Because the upgrade components are not easy(relatively speaking) to come by, it becomes a grind.
Here is the problem, though, the combat is not fun at the start. The grind is there to ease the frustration. Which is the wrong way to do a grind.
In a good grindy MMO, it’s fun at the start, and the grind rewards you with more fun. Additionally, the activity of the grind itself is usually fun.
So, when it comes to Odyssey.
It’s not fun at the start.
The Grind doesn’t make it more fun, just eases frustration.
The actual grinding activities are a 50-50 of fun/not fun.

As I mentioned above - G5 weapons and suits were factored in to all facets of combat in Odyssey. The end result is players feeling weak and NPCs feeling like bullet sponges at G1.

Now have a look at how many materials you need to G5 your gear.

You can get to G3 by purchasing equipment, but you still need a hefty amount of materials to get up to G5. You'll likely be stuck at G3 until you can build up a sizable stockpile of materials, items and data, but be wary - you cannot remove an Engineering mod from your equipment. Make a mistake or change your mind? You have to trash the item and grind out a new one. This kills build experimentation for all but the most persistent players.

The worst thing is, they took the mobile game strategy of grind by making it frustrating, but didn’t give an option to pay to skip the grind. I’m not advocating for pay to win. What I want is for this to be removed. It’s mobile mechanics without the business model.

From what I understand(correct me if I am wrong, please), in addition to special mods, basic mods are installed by engineers. Basic mods being, scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors. This doesn’t make any sense. Even in real life, your average gun owner should be able to install any of those things on the appropriate weapon. It simply does not make any sense that this is gated behind upgrading both for the mod slot and the engineer to install the mod.

Yeah, I'd prefer if the optics for weapons didn't eat a ModSlot. At least, I'm assuming they do - I don't see any other location where they'd be listed in the stats page.

Lastly, sniper rifles, in games, need to be fired while aiming. Otherwise, they are incredibly inaccurate. This is designed to prevent them from being used effectively at close range. The Plasma Sniper Rifle is initially equipped with a short range scope, making it effective at close range. It’s more effective at close range than the shotgun, and it’s three shots before reload compared to shotguns two shots. It’s so unbalanced.

It does have a long reload and inaccurate hipfire spread, but I agree on the short range scope. The Executioner falls flat on the "sniper rifle" role it is supposed to occupy, unless your targets sit perfectly still and take two large neon-pink grapefruits to the face... which NPCs do if you're 100+ m away from them, oddly enough.

All in all, combat is frustrating, unbalanced, and, in my opinion, counter to the true spirit of Elite, but... it doesn't end there.

The SRV
Even more effective than the plasma sniper rifle is the SRV. This thing can mow down NPC’s left and right. They have no decent defense against it, nor a counter. Even rank five NPCs are chewed up.
Worse still, it is too easy. I am torn between going on foot and enduring the frustration, or using the SRV and having no challenge.

Do the NPCs use rockets? If not, they should...

Grenades
Does anybody use these?
The problem is this, the low gravity causes the grenades to bounce like crazy. This does not affect NPCs it seems. I’ve noticed that their grenades don’t seem to bounce the same way.
Just an observation.

This is where knowing the gravity of the planet you're on is important. You need throw your grenades so that they bounce closer to you but detonate on your target. I've been able to land successful grenade hits reliably this way, and those shield busters are great for draining a whole squad's worth of shields in one go. Follow that up with a frag or some Executioner fire and boom! squad wipe.

Also - the bubble shield is your friend.

I will add that maybe the grenade bounce could be turned down a bit. Sometimes it feels like they are made of super rubber when they bounce off of something.

The weapons don’t sound overly great
In a game with stellar sound design, this is a little disappointing.

The plasma weapons could use a do-over, especially the Oppressor. I think that one's bugged and the audio is not playing on every shot fired. It's more like every other shot to my ears.

The other ones I am ok with. The Eclipse sounds super aggressive - I love it.

Confined combat arenas
There are a lot of great locales to use. The alpha release had some really great rock scattering and fungal forests, these would make great battle fields. Only having combat zones in a settlement would not be taking advantage of all that Elite/Odyssey have to offer.

Encounter Stages
This has been a problem since Horizons. There is combat on the planet surface, and there is ship to ship combat in space. There is very little ship to ship combat above the planet surface, and a lot of that combat has to be instigated by the player. The new POI’s are not guarded by ships.

I am disappointed that ship combat and surface combat aren't tied together in a more dynamic way. For example, you should win a ship CZ to break through a blockade to land some much-needed reinforcements at a surface CZ, where the battle will continue. I understand that they're two separate instances, but I can dream...

Headshots
Headshots on an unshielded target are not lethal, outside of the plasma sniper rifle.

I don't think I've needed a headshot with the Executioner to finish an NPC off... pretty sure I've hit a few in the foot and taken them out.

Lack of diverse enemies
As of now, there are only 5 ranks of human NPCs.

As well as four classes - Commando, Scout, Striker and Marksman. Likely tied to the limited number of weapons we currently have. I'd like to see some LMGs added for lane suppression...

The Artemis suit has weapon slots, but at what point are you going to use them while studying plants?

The Artemis has the longest battery life out of all the suits (well, at least it did in the Alpha - is that still the case?). I suspect it'll be very useful infiltrating Guardian and Thargoid structures that likely won't have suit recharge stations for us to use, and thus forcing us to rely on battery packs to keep us topped up on suit power.

Couple that with an Extended Battery Life mod and you'll be able to walk around with your shield up for a very long time. I have one on my G3 Dominator suit that I purchased and can practically forget I have my shield up in a settlement as it is.

Proposed solutions and Suggestions
It is important in constructive criticism to provide potential solutions and fixes.

What would make the biggest difference, in my opinion, would be the outright removal of the linear upgrade system from the weapons. They should always do their maximum amount of damage.
This achieves two things right away:

1. It would reduce the sponge/TTK.
2. Removes the tedious grind.

In turn, it reduces the frustrating chore experience of combat and grind, making it more fun.

Emphasis mine, and holy yes indeed!

Basic mods, such as improved scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors should not require an engineer.

Agree on the optics, not entirely certain about the magazines and suppressors, though I'm open to the suggestion.

The plasma sniper rifle should be altered.

• The projectile should be faster, and just as lethal.
• NPCs should spawn less frequently with this weapon, and have an accuracy that reflects their rank.
• The rifle should have a long range scope by default.
• The rate of fire should be reduced. It should be 1 shot before reloading, to compensate for its lethality, and make it a less effective short range weapon.

Agree on the projectile speed increase - same can be said for, well, all of the projectile weapons in Odyssey really.

Ambivalent on the ROF adjustment. The Executioner's recoil is enough to prevent it from overly accurate spam firing at mid range. Additionally, I am anticipating an Increased ROF mod from the Engineers, so that mod might cancel out this adjustment. However, since it is a precision weapon, I'm open to testing a lower ROF.

I will have to disagree on the magazine adjustment. The Executioner will always be at least a two shot kill against a shielded target thanks to the damage gate between shield HP and Armor HP. With it's already inherently long reload time, this would make it overly cumbersome to use and force the use of the Extended Magazine mod to compensate.

As I mentioned above, I don't think the Executioner is the problem - frankly, it's probably the only weapon working as it should.

In addition to the above, the effectiveness of armour and shields should be reduced in a range of 25-50% both to the players and NPCs. This is to encourage the use of cover, range, and using the appropriate weapon for a given situation.

Hooray for lower TTK!

NPCs should make effective use of cover, and players should have the ability to lean out of cover. It just looks silly that all the combatants are standing out in the open shooting at each other. The pre-alpha mission footage that they showed was slammed for that.

I agree - that and the "Rush B" mentality needs to be adjusted. Kinda funny when you see a line of NPCs beelining it to the nearest control point the instant it goes online.

Reduce the meta prevalence
IMO, I find this to be the worst. The weapon swapping is clunky, and weird
While wearing the Artemis or Maverick suit, the weirdness comes from having to switch to a pistol in the midst of combat when you have a rifle. A side arm is not meant to be used in that way. It is supposed to be a backup weapon.
Regardless of your approach(Laser Rifle, Kinetic Pistol, or Kinetic Rifle, Laser Pistol), it just makes no sense to use a pistol when you have a rifle.

That was one of the first things I pointed out in the Alpha forums - why do I have a rifle when I need my sidearm to strip the shields off my target at a distance first?

The SRV
Have barricades or portable bunkers in POIs for NPCs to retreat to when they are attacked by an SRV. Not for every POI, but for some at least.
Have NPCs retreat to interiors when in settlements or retreat to cover.
Point is, make it difficult for the player to get a lock on them.
What you SHOULDN’T do, is counter SRV usage by super buffing ground weapons/shields or nerfing the SRV. Personally, I think that handheld weapons are already too effective against vehicles.
The actual weapon counter to the SRV, and other vehicles, is the rocket launcher. Certain NPCs should be equipped with the rocket launcher, which they prefer to use against vehicles.
Other different types of weapons could be introduced. Such as a shouldered laser cannon that is too clunky to work on human targets, but works on vehicles.

Emphasis mine.

A heavy laser or plasma weapon could be fun - thinking of the Spartan Laser from Halo or those Vanu plasma launchers from Planetside 2 - specifically the Lancer with it's charge mechanic.

Encounter Stages
Have POIs that have air support. So you fight a ship above the POI then land to engage ground forces. This way simple encounters occur in stages, and it’s just fun.

Similar to what I suggested earlier, that would be a lot of fun.

Enemy Diversity
Have enemies of different ranks spawn in the same group.
Have different types of enemies, such as powered armour or robots, that require different strategies to bring them down.

Or more weapon classes for more tactical options...

Thanks for reading. PS
I think my points are a little weak in some areas because I just didn't have the time to mull over them. I am hoping, through discussion, that we can make a good case for some form of better combat. I really want this game to succeed.

Plenty of good suggestions here. I'm also hopeful that with some discussion the FPS combat can be improved. We have a decent foundation here - we just need to iron out some of the finer details.

 

[knollengnom]

It's very important, I feel, to focus hard on whatever issue bothers you the most.
For me, it was combat. I genuinely believed that if combat wasn't fixed by release, that Odyssey would get a lot of backlash.
The central component to Odyssey, largely underwhelming, where the fun is gated behind a really bad progression system.

I feel the same way. Maybe this is because I for one was extremely excited for the on-foot combat in Odyssey, maybe more than others, at least from what I have gathered skimming through the posts on here.

Another minor thing to add concerning the material grind for weapons: I really don't get why the the progression towards weapon upgrades and attachments is not directly linked to the combat activity itself. Why not let killed enemies randomly drop materials, so that fighting e.g. in combat zones allows you to progress towards new weapon upgrades? Is this disconnect on purpose? It just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.

 

[knollengnom]

Bump for more visibility. Would love the CMs to take note of this and communicate the feedback to the dev teams. Thank you!

 

[JTFireblaze]

From what I understand(correct me if I am wrong, please), in addition to special mods, basic mods are installed by engineers. Basic mods being, scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors. This doesn’t make any sense. Even in real life, your average gun owner should be able to install any of those things on the appropriate weapon. It simply does not make any sense that this is gated behind upgrading both for the mod slot and the engineer to install the mod.

This. Most of the mods we have to grind for now are just boring. I mean that in the sense that they are basic. A scope, extended mag, a suppressor.

Firstly, how can only 9 people in the entire galaxy have the knowledge and ability to install these
Secondly, why do I need to collect Cat Memes and Rubber Bands to install a stock scope
Thirdly, why are they permanently fused to my weapon and un-removable

My solution to this:

Have all "basic tier" mods purchasable at Pioneer Supplies stores for credits. It allows you to get a start on the engineering stuff without being bogged down with thingumajig grinds. You can do some basic tweaks and get feel for weapons.

Engineers are reserved for more advanced, after market mods. They can tweak existing basic mods, or generate new "exotic" mods. Like a thermal mod for your kinetic rifle, or a phase shot to penetrate shields.

Mods are swappable like ship modules. The current system is a massive step backwards and the permanence of the mods is just terrible.

Encounter Stages
This has been a problem since Horizons. There is combat on the planet surface, and there is ship to ship combat in space. There is very little ship to ship combat above the planet surface, and a lot of that combat has to be instigated by the player. The new POI’s are not guarded by ships.

Sphere of combat is difficult to balance I guess. Having ships hovering above the battlefields launching dumbfires at the surface might be quite challenging for foot soldiers. I'd opt for settlements to have a bubble shield around them to prevent ships being overpowered in these spaces, but it can be disabled so that ships can eventually be used.

Some ship presence (and NPC SRVs) would be a huge boon to these settlements, after all, FDev were keen to promote the Sphere of Combat, so they should actually implement it.

Lack of diverse enemies
As of now, there are only 5 ranks of human NPCs.

This is a problem with the loadouts. Every enemy has a gun, a shield and maybe they'll lob a grenade at you. Gets stale after a little while.

I'd opt for more diversity in shields and armour. If shields were slightly rarer on the battlefield and had bi-weave or prismatic mod variants that affected your movement speed, or armour was more prevalent and stronger - again affecting movement speed. A few examples:

• A party of scavengers might only have one small shield between them, so they're forced to use heavier armour. You're now encouraged to use kinetic or explosive damage without weapon swapping every single kill.
• High tech squads with large shields, and weaker armour. You bring in the laser weaponry to take them out
• NPC SRVs that require heavy weapons. Rocket launcher, or a beam laser gun that's heavy and slow (Spartan Laser anyone?)
• Juggernaut NPCs with huge prismatic shields and armour that move slowly and require coordination to take down
• Snipers with bi-weaves or even no shields that can move fast around the battlefield.
• Captains that have significantly higher tier equipment than their squad who would be less equipped, like a boss fight with adds.

Then ease up on the tiered grunt system, and instead sprinkle some more varied enemies like this.

A low tier settlement will be full of basics and maybe a low rank Captain. A high security one will have snipers posted, a couple of Juggernauts acting as bouncers, SRV patrols.

Anarchy systems could have a tendency to have more scavenger/armour class combatants, High Tech goes for shields. Now you can equip loadouts based on the system you're heading to as well...

Right now the combat is passable, but it does nothing special. And does get samey very fast. Even with the engineer mods it doesn't look to change up anything. High tier battlefields you're just doing the same thing but with bigger numbers.

 

[Sairus Kaeri]

I would add. Why does everyone only use one type of combat suit? It is unlikely that the military forces of a superpower will use weapons of the enemy or a third party.
There should be at least 3-4 with different characteristics.
Combat suits: Federation, Empire, Alliance, Independents.
For example, Empire suits have more shields but less armor resistance.

 

[Agrar Therenus]

I made a couple posts a while back detailing my feedback on combat during the alpha. Now I am here again summarizing my points and adding a few more things that I have noticed. A number of other posters on the forums as well pointed out issues with combat. It seems that NONE of their issues were addressed at all. It was disappointing.

There are a few things I want to get out of the way first.

1. Frontier stated in a PC Gamer magazine interview, that they wanted combat to fall somewhere between Call of Duty and ArmA. They did not want it to be an arcade shooter. It’s very clear to me that they backpedalled on this. I’m not going to bring this up. I am going to focus on the combat and game as it stands on its own, for the most part.
2. For some reason, Halo was brought up in previous threads as being similar to Odyssey’s combat. Except Halo is fun. I’ve recently started a playthrough of the MC Collection. Halo does NOT have the ridiculous sponge that Odyssey has.
3. Frontier is a very talented group of developers. They have the ability to make this work.
4. A lot of this is OPINION. That being said, I know it is shared by a lot of other people.
5. Meta refers to Shields and Armour vs. Kinetic and Thermal. I don’t want to re-explain this every time.
6. My focus is on PvE, and primarily on the lone CMDR experience. Yet I imagine that any change I suggest would benefit the PvP as well.
7. There are Rank Zero NPCs. These are civilians. I have not included them in any of my analyses or critiques.

So, starting off, there is no way around this, Odyssey’s combat is bad. Enemies are too spongy, even at lower ranks. The meta is way too prevalent. The AI is built around the aforementioned sponge and meta, making them annoying and a bit dumb. The grind is built to provide a sense of progression, but in all reality, it just eases the frustration. All of this creates a tedious, chore-like experience where the fun is short lived. It’s an arcade-like experience, but pales in comparison to its contemporaries.

First, the sponge.
For the unaware, this refers to the amount of hits an enemy can absorb before falling.

Currently, a single bar of shield takes 5 laser hits to drop(from the laser rifle). This doesn’t seem too bad at first, but an enemy has a bar of shield for every rank. Currently, I have seen as high as rank five. In addition, there is still the armour/health to cut through after the shields.
It is a little bit harder to measure amour. I’m certain it gets stronger between ranks, but it is always one solid bar of armour. In addition, there is location based damage, so it is hard to tell the exact number of hits it takes to drop someone.

The TK Aphelion, laser rifle, has 25 shots in a magazine.
Obviously, it takes 25 hits with the laser rifle to drop a rank five enemies shields. However, you are not going to land every hit. So it’s going to be two reloads just to take out the shields. The shield recharge delay is very short, only a few seconds. While you are trying to take down their health with your kinetic rifle, their shields are likely to recharge. The recharge starts at about 50% so it’s back to the laser rifle to take them down again.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the meta was non-existent. That the laser rifle did the same damage to health/armour as it did shields. If you landed every shot, you would have to reload twice, or three times if the shield recharged. Realistically, you are looking at 5-6. Two reloads to take down shields, two for health, and 1 or 2 more for every time the shields recharge.
What caps this off, is that these are not singular enemies. They spawn in groups of all the same rank. They are not static either. They will retreat to cover when their shields drop. They will shoot back at you.
You simply do not have enough resources to take out any rank 5 npcs(before upgrading).

What throws a wrench into this already awful system, is the Plasma “sniper” rifle. I haven’t much experience with this weapon, but it takes out shields usually in one hit, same with health. A magazine has three shots. I’m not sure how effective it is against higher ranked NPCs. This makes this weapon the optimal choice. It’s only downside? It’s a slow moving projectile so you have to lead targets a bit.
The stark difference in this weapon's effectiveness vs other weapons is astounding. It’s unbalanced to the extreme.

The Meta Prevalence
This is where the sponge gets even worse. It is so prevalent. It’s not just optimal, it is necessary to use thermal against shields kinetic against armour. Take, for example, a rank one npc. 5 from the laser rifle shots to take out shields, but the remaining 20 shots in your magazine will not take out their health.
What this leads to is constant, clunky weapon swapping just to take out singular targets. This wouldn’t be so bad if it was limited to higher ranked npcs. However, it is necessary for ALL ranks of NPCs.
The aforementioned Plasma sniper rifle again throws a wrench into this, showing again, how unbalanced it is.

Combining the above two points on Meta and Sponge.
Rank 1 NPCs are supposed to be canon fodder. They should go down easy, and they do, in a way. But it takes too long, and it takes too much ammunition.

The AI
For the most part, the AI is designed around close range combat. I found it very inconsistent. If you are outside of medium range. They seem to be unable to hit you. They are easy to lose around corners. Yet, at times, they show some intelligence. Such as spreading out to flank you and using terrain dips and rises as cover.
I think the AI could be good, but it is intentionally designed around the above gameplay design choices.

Upgrades and The Grind
This is a hard one to pin down. It simply doesn’t make ANY SENSE.
Not only that, it’s worse than the grind in the base game. You can get by without grinding in the base game, but it almost feels like a necessity in Odyssey.
Full disclosure, I have not done any upgrades in Odyssey.

Weapon and armour upgrades increase damage dealt, decrease damage taken, and allow for mods. Because the upgrade components are not easy(relatively speaking) to come by, it becomes a grind.
Here is the problem, though, the combat is not fun at the start. The grind is there to ease the frustration. Which is the wrong way to do a grind.
In a good grindy MMO, it’s fun at the start, and the grind rewards you with more fun. Additionally, the activity of the grind itself is usually fun.
So, when it comes to Odyssey.
It’s not fun at the start.
The Grind doesn’t make it more fun, just eases frustration.
The actual grinding activities are a 50-50 of fun/not fun.

The worst thing is, they took the mobile game strategy of grind by making it frustrating, but didn’t give an option to pay to skip the grind. I’m not advocating for pay to win. What I want is for this to be removed. It’s mobile mechanics without the business model.

From what I understand(correct me if I am wrong, please), in addition to special mods, basic mods are installed by engineers. Basic mods being, scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors. This doesn’t make any sense. Even in real life, your average gun owner should be able to install any of those things on the appropriate weapon. It simply does not make any sense that this is gated behind upgrading both for the mod slot and the engineer to install the mod.

Lastly, sniper rifles, in games, need to be fired while aiming. Otherwise, they are incredibly inaccurate. This is designed to prevent them from being used effectively at close range. The Plasma Sniper Rifle is initially equipped with a short range scope, making it effective at close range. It’s more effective at close range than the shotgun, and it’s three shots before reload compared to shotguns two shots. It’s so unbalanced.

All in all, combat is frustrating, unbalanced, and, in my opinion, counter to the true spirit of Elite, but... it doesn't end there.

The SRV
Even more effective than the plasma sniper rifle is the SRV. This thing can mow down NPC’s left and right. They have no decent defense against it, nor a counter. Even rank five NPCs are chewed up.
Worse still, it is too easy. I am torn between going on foot and enduring the frustration, or using the SRV and having no challenge.

Grenades
Does anybody use these?
The problem is this, the low gravity causes the grenades to bounce like crazy. This does not affect NPCs it seems. I’ve noticed that their grenades don’t seem to bounce the same way.
Just an observation.

The weapons don’t sound overly great
In a game with stellar sound design, this is a little disappointing.

Confined combat arenas
There are a lot of great locales to use. The alpha release had some really great rock scattering and fungal forests, these would make great battle fields. Only having combat zones in a settlement would not be taking advantage of all that Elite/Odyssey have to offer.

Encounter Stages
This has been a problem since Horizons. There is combat on the planet surface, and there is ship to ship combat in space. There is very little ship to ship combat above the planet surface, and a lot of that combat has to be instigated by the player. The new POI’s are not guarded by ships.

Headshots
Headshots on an unshielded target are not lethal, outside of the plasma sniper rifle.

Lack of diverse enemies
As of now, there are only 5 ranks of human NPCs.

The Artemis suit has weapon slots, but at what point are you going to use them while studying plants?

Proposed solutions and Suggestions
It is important in constructive criticism to provide potential solutions and fixes.

What would make the biggest difference, in my opinion, would be the outright removal of the linear upgrade system from the weapons. They should always do their maximum amount of damage.
This achieves two things right away:

1. It would reduce the sponge/TTK.
2. Removes the tedious grind.

In turn, it reduces the frustrating chore experience of combat and grind, making it more fun.

Basic mods, such as improved scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors should not require an engineer.

The plasma sniper rifle should be altered.

• The projectile should be faster, and just as lethal.
• NPCs should spawn less frequently with this weapon, and have an accuracy that reflects their rank.
• The rifle should have a long range scope by default.
• The rate of fire should be reduced. It should be 1 shot before reloading, to compensate for its lethality, and make it a less effective short range weapon.

In addition to the above, the effectiveness of armour and shields should be reduced in a range of 25-50% both to the players and NPCs. This is to encourage the use of cover, range, and using the appropriate weapon for a given situation.

NPCs should make effective use of cover, and players should have the ability to lean out of cover. It just looks silly that all the combatants are standing out in the open shooting at each other. The pre-alpha mission footage that they showed was slammed for that.

Reduce the meta prevalence
IMO, I find this to be the worst. The weapon swapping is clunky, and weird
While wearing the Artemis or Maverick suit, the weirdness comes from having to switch to a pistol in the midst of combat when you have a rifle. A side arm is not meant to be used in that way. It is supposed to be a backup weapon.
Regardless of your approach(Laser Rifle, Kinetic Pistol, or Kinetic Rifle, Laser Pistol), it just makes no sense to use a pistol when you have a rifle.

Reducing the meta would allow you to be more diverse when using the dominator suit. Right now, other than the plasma sniper rifle, the optimal loadout is Laser Rifle + Kinetic Rifle.

The SRV
Have barricades or portable bunkers in POIs for NPCs to retreat to when they are attacked by an SRV. Not for every POI, but for some at least.
Have NPCs retreat to interiors when in settlements or retreat to cover.
Point is, make it difficult for the player to get a lock on them.
What you SHOULDN’T do, is counter SRV usage by super buffing ground weapons/shields or nerfing the SRV. Personally, I think that handheld weapons are already too effective against vehicles.
The actual weapon counter to the SRV, and other vehicles, is the rocket launcher. Certain NPCs should be equipped with the rocket launcher, which they prefer to use against vehicles.
Other different types of weapons could be introduced. Such as a shouldered laser cannon that is too clunky to work on human targets, but works on vehicles.

Encounter Stages
Have POIs that have air support. So you fight a ship above the POI then land to engage ground forces. This way simple encounters occur in stages, and it’s just fun.

Enemy Diversity
Have enemies of different ranks spawn in the same group.
Have different types of enemies, such as powered armour or robots, that require different strategies to bring them down.

Thanks for reading. PS
I think my points are a little weak in some areas because I just didn't have the time to mull over them. I am hoping, through discussion, that we can make a good case for some form of better combat. I really want this game to succeed.

This is very much what I have been trying to express, but not as in-detail as your post.

The tiresome "Learn to play" responses inevitably appear, and what they fail to appreciate is we want challenge, but just in the right place and at the right difficulty level.

 

[Filbert]

I would add. Why does everyone only use one type of combat suit? It is unlikely that the military forces of a superpower will use weapons of the enemy or a third party.
There should be at least 3-4 with different characteristics.
Combat suits: Federation, Empire, Alliance, Independents.
For example, Empire suits have more shields but less armor resistance.

It all adds to the niggling feeling that this expansion is a little half-baked and could have used some more time and fresh ideas. Not to say I haven't been having immense fun with Odyssey, because I have and am, but I feel like there is so much wasted potential. I only hope FDev build on the platform going forward but I fear what we have now is it.

 

[Drelthar]

I made... (loads of good points)

I agree with everything except the part about laser/kinetic.

The shileds and armour - laser kinetic thing is fine to me, it makes things a tad more interesting. Just using one weapon all the time is merp

 

[knollengnom]

I agree with everything except the part about laser/kinetic.

The shileds and armour - laser kinetic thing is fine to me, it makes things a tad more interesting. Just using one weapon all the time is merp

I would maybe be okay with it if it was rebalanced to feel a little more realistic and less gamey, if the bullet sponge was removed and if the animations for switching weapons were a lot faster and more fluid. And maybe just make personal shields on NPCs a little less common...

 

[xdeath]

Bump for more visibility. Would love the CMs to take note of this and communicate the feedback to the dev teams. Thank you!

I appreciate it. I believe it is poor form for an OP to bump their own thread. I'm not going to say no to anyone else bumping my thread

This is very much what I have been trying to express, but not as in-detail as your post.

The tiresome "Learn to play" responses inevitably appear, and what they fail to appreciate is we want challenge, but just in the right place and at the right difficulty level.

Challenge in terms of strategy and skill, not a test of patience and frustration.

I agree with everything except the part about laser/kinetic.

The shileds and armour - laser kinetic thing is fine to me, it makes things a tad more interesting. Just using one weapon all the time is merp

Interesting, yes, which is why I say reduced, not removed. On tougher enemies, sure, but on low rank enemies, it shouldn't make a difference what weapon you use.



I have some updates on my combat experience. I've recently taking to assaulting settlements for materials, solo. I have more experience with plasma weapons now.
The Manticore Executioner(plasma sniper rifle) has a whopping 15.0 points of damage base. The plasma assault rifle does a measly 0.8.
I upgraded my plasma assault 1 grade, now it does 1.0 damage. 0.2 damage increase?!?
Now, I fought a lot of rank 0 unshielded. They take around 10-20 shots from the plasma assault rifle(1.0 damage) before they go down. This is bad. Half the time, they are wearing simple clothes. 1 shot should be enough to seriously wound or incapacitate someone.

It absolutely blows my mind how much more effective the plasma sniper rifle is as a close range weapon compared to the shotgun.
This is unbalanced... to the extreme.

My goal right now, is to upgrade the plasma assault rifle fully and see how it fairs, but, base on it's track record so far, it's not going to make much of a difference.
This problem is more serious than I realized. I'm very concerned.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

My goal right now, is to upgrade the plasma assault rifle fully and see how it fairs, but, base on it's track record so far, it's not going to make much of a difference.

Fully G5'd the damage is much better, but the projectile velocity is still garbage - the Greater Range mod doesn't help with that and is presumably bugged, at least that's what it seems to me. It can reliably eliminate multiple low-level targets at close range if they aren't moving much before reloading. I can down a single mid-level target (3 shield bars) within a magazine under the same circumstances.

I have my issues with it, but the Oppressor is my current go-to primary. That may change after I fully Engineer it and then I get around to upgrading an AR-50... I was quite fond of that rifle in the Alpha.

 

[CMDR The Riz]

View attachment 234253

Fully G5'd the damage is much better, but the projectile velocity is still garbage - the Greater Range mod doesn't help with that and is presumably bugged, at least that's what it seems to me. It can reliably eliminate multiple low-level targets at close range if they aren't moving much before reloading. I can down a single mid-level target (3 shield bars) within a magazine under the same circumstances.

I have my issues with it, but the Oppressor is my current go-to primary. That may change after I fully Engineer it and then I get around to upgrading an AR-50... I was quite fond of that rifle in the Alpha.

Just wanted to add on to this with the following demonstration:

Source: https://youtu.be/ksf9AwVXjTk?t=101


This was recorded a few days ago, before I added the Stability mod. I was testing out how the G5 damage felt in a low CZ, but it bugged out partway in and sent me a ways outside of the settlement, which is where this recording picks up.

 

[fus roh potato]

Linear power progression models are rubbish for anything sandbox, simulator, or exploration based imo. Not only that, but it's the laziest choice to offering anything. I'd rather work for options, style, control, and prestige. Getting the feeling the game designers are a little too old and out of touch here, like they modeled the game after some 90's korean mmo but without the mmo part. Nobody wants to have their emergent gameplay stolen and replaced with collect 90 clumps of bees wax to upgrade their DPS.

 

[dewelcodex1]

I made a couple posts a while back detailing my feedback on combat during the alpha. Now I am here again summarizing my points and adding a few more things that I have noticed. A number of other posters on the forums as well pointed out issues with combat. It seems that NONE of their issues were addressed at all. It was disappointing.

There are a few things I want to get out of the way first.

1. Frontier stated in a PC Gamer magazine interview, that they wanted combat to fall somewhere between Call of Duty and ArmA. They did not want it to be an arcade shooter. It’s very clear to me that they backpedalled on this. I’m not going to bring this up. I am going to focus on the combat and game as it stands on its own, for the most part.
2. For some reason, Halo was brought up in previous threads as being similar to Odyssey’s combat. Except Halo is fun. I’ve recently started a playthrough of the MC Collection. Halo does NOT have the ridiculous sponge that Odyssey has.
3. Frontier is a very talented group of developers. They have the ability to make this work.
4. A lot of this is OPINION. That being said, I know it is shared by a lot of other people.
5. Meta refers to Shields and Armour vs. Kinetic and Thermal. I don’t want to re-explain this every time.
6. My focus is on PvE, and primarily on the lone CMDR experience. Yet I imagine that any change I suggest would benefit the PvP as well.
7. There are Rank Zero NPCs. These are civilians. I have not included them in any of my analyses or critiques.

So, starting off, there is no way around this, Odyssey’s combat is bad. Enemies are too spongy, even at lower ranks. The meta is way too prevalent. The AI is built around the aforementioned sponge and meta, making them annoying and a bit dumb. The grind is built to provide a sense of progression, but in all reality, it just eases the frustration. All of this creates a tedious, chore-like experience where the fun is short lived. It’s an arcade-like experience, but pales in comparison to its contemporaries.

First, the sponge.
For the unaware, this refers to the amount of hits an enemy can absorb before falling.

Currently, a single bar of shield takes 5 laser hits to drop(from the laser rifle). This doesn’t seem too bad at first, but an enemy has a bar of shield for every rank. Currently, I have seen as high as rank five. In addition, there is still the armour/health to cut through after the shields.
It is a little bit harder to measure amour. I’m certain it gets stronger between ranks, but it is always one solid bar of armour. In addition, there is location based damage, so it is hard to tell the exact number of hits it takes to drop someone.

The TK Aphelion, laser rifle, has 25 shots in a magazine.
Obviously, it takes 25 hits with the laser rifle to drop a rank five enemies shields. However, you are not going to land every hit. So it’s going to be two reloads just to take out the shields. The shield recharge delay is very short, only a few seconds. While you are trying to take down their health with your kinetic rifle, their shields are likely to recharge. The recharge starts at about 50% so it’s back to the laser rifle to take them down again.
Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the meta was non-existent. That the laser rifle did the same damage to health/armour as it did shields. If you landed every shot, you would have to reload twice, or three times if the shield recharged. Realistically, you are looking at 5-6. Two reloads to take down shields, two for health, and 1 or 2 more for every time the shields recharge.
What caps this off, is that these are not singular enemies. They spawn in groups of all the same rank. They are not static either. They will retreat to cover when their shields drop. They will shoot back at you.
You simply do not have enough resources to take out any rank 5 npcs(before upgrading).

What throws a wrench into this already awful system, is the Plasma “sniper” rifle. I haven’t much experience with this weapon, but it takes out shields usually in one hit, same with health. A magazine has three shots. I’m not sure how effective it is against higher ranked NPCs. This makes this weapon the optimal choice. It’s only downside? It’s a slow moving projectile so you have to lead targets a bit.
The stark difference in this weapon's effectiveness vs other weapons is astounding. It’s unbalanced to the extreme.

The Meta Prevalence
This is where the sponge gets even worse. It is so prevalent. It’s not just optimal, it is necessary to use thermal against shields kinetic against armour. Take, for example, a rank one npc. 5 from the laser rifle shots to take out shields, but the remaining 20 shots in your magazine will not take out their health.
What this leads to is constant, clunky weapon swapping just to take out singular targets. This wouldn’t be so bad if it was limited to higher ranked npcs. However, it is necessary for ALL ranks of NPCs.
The aforementioned Plasma sniper rifle again throws a wrench into this, showing again, how unbalanced it is.

Combining the above two points on Meta and Sponge.
Rank 1 NPCs are supposed to be canon fodder. They should go down easy, and they do, in a way. But it takes too long, and it takes too much ammunition.

The AI
For the most part, the AI is designed around close range combat. I found it very inconsistent. If you are outside of medium range. They seem to be unable to hit you. They are easy to lose around corners. Yet, at times, they show some intelligence. Such as spreading out to flank you and using terrain dips and rises as cover.
I think the AI could be good, but it is intentionally designed around the above gameplay design choices.

Upgrades and The Grind
This is a hard one to pin down. It simply doesn’t make ANY SENSE.
Not only that, it’s worse than the grind in the base game. You can get by without grinding in the base game, but it almost feels like a necessity in Odyssey.
Full disclosure, I have not done any upgrades in Odyssey.

Weapon and armour upgrades increase damage dealt, decrease damage taken, and allow for mods. Because the upgrade components are not easy(relatively speaking) to come by, it becomes a grind.
Here is the problem, though, the combat is not fun at the start. The grind is there to ease the frustration. Which is the wrong way to do a grind.
In a good grindy MMO, it’s fun at the start, and the grind rewards you with more fun. Additionally, the activity of the grind itself is usually fun.
So, when it comes to Odyssey.
It’s not fun at the start.
The Grind doesn’t make it more fun, just eases frustration.
The actual grinding activities are a 50-50 of fun/not fun.

The worst thing is, they took the mobile game strategy of grind by making it frustrating, but didn’t give an option to pay to skip the grind. I’m not advocating for pay to win. What I want is for this to be removed. It’s mobile mechanics without the business model.

From what I understand(correct me if I am wrong, please), in addition to special mods, basic mods are installed by engineers. Basic mods being, scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors. This doesn’t make any sense. Even in real life, your average gun owner should be able to install any of those things on the appropriate weapon. It simply does not make any sense that this is gated behind upgrading both for the mod slot and the engineer to install the mod.

Lastly, sniper rifles, in games, need to be fired while aiming. Otherwise, they are incredibly inaccurate. This is designed to prevent them from being used effectively at close range. The Plasma Sniper Rifle is initially equipped with a short range scope, making it effective at close range. It’s more effective at close range than the shotgun, and it’s three shots before reload compared to shotguns two shots. It’s so unbalanced.

All in all, combat is frustrating, unbalanced, and, in my opinion, counter to the true spirit of Elite, but... it doesn't end there.

The SRV
Even more effective than the plasma sniper rifle is the SRV. This thing can mow down NPC’s left and right. They have no decent defense against it, nor a counter. Even rank five NPCs are chewed up.
Worse still, it is too easy. I am torn between going on foot and enduring the frustration, or using the SRV and having no challenge.

Grenades
Does anybody use these?
The problem is this, the low gravity causes the grenades to bounce like crazy. This does not affect NPCs it seems. I’ve noticed that their grenades don’t seem to bounce the same way.
Just an observation.

The weapons don’t sound overly great
In a game with stellar sound design, this is a little disappointing.

Confined combat arenas
There are a lot of great locales to use. The alpha release had some really great rock scattering and fungal forests, these would make great battle fields. Only having combat zones in a settlement would not be taking advantage of all that Elite/Odyssey have to offer.

Encounter Stages
This has been a problem since Horizons. There is combat on the planet surface, and there is ship to ship combat in space. There is very little ship to ship combat above the planet surface, and a lot of that combat has to be instigated by the player. The new POI’s are not guarded by ships.

Headshots
Headshots on an unshielded target are not lethal, outside of the plasma sniper rifle.

Lack of diverse enemies
As of now, there are only 5 ranks of human NPCs.

The Artemis suit has weapon slots, but at what point are you going to use them while studying plants?

Proposed solutions and Suggestions
It is important in constructive criticism to provide potential solutions and fixes.

What would make the biggest difference, in my opinion, would be the outright removal of the linear upgrade system from the weapons. They should always do their maximum amount of damage.
This achieves two things right away:

1. It would reduce the sponge/TTK.
2. Removes the tedious grind.

In turn, it reduces the frustrating chore experience of combat and grind, making it more fun.

Basic mods, such as improved scopes, expanded magazines, and suppressors should not require an engineer.

The plasma sniper rifle should be altered.

• The projectile should be faster, and just as lethal.
• NPCs should spawn less frequently with this weapon, and have an accuracy that reflects their rank.
• The rifle should have a long range scope by default.
• The rate of fire should be reduced. It should be 1 shot before reloading, to compensate for its lethality, and make it a less effective short range weapon.

In addition to the above, the effectiveness of armour and shields should be reduced in a range of 25-50% both to the players and NPCs. This is to encourage the use of cover, range, and using the appropriate weapon for a given situation.

NPCs should make effective use of cover, and players should have the ability to lean out of cover. It just looks silly that all the combatants are standing out in the open shooting at each other. The pre-alpha mission footage that they showed was slammed for that.

Reduce the meta prevalence
IMO, I find this to be the worst. The weapon swapping is clunky, and weird
While wearing the Artemis or Maverick suit, the weirdness comes from having to switch to a pistol in the midst of combat when you have a rifle. A side arm is not meant to be used in that way. It is supposed to be a backup weapon.
Regardless of your approach(Laser Rifle, Kinetic Pistol, or Kinetic Rifle, Laser Pistol), it just makes no sense to use a pistol when you have a rifle.

Reducing the meta would allow you to be more diverse when using the dominator suit. Right now, other than the plasma sniper rifle, the optimal loadout is Laser Rifle + Kinetic Rifle.

The SRV
Have barricades or portable bunkers in POIs for NPCs to retreat to when they are attacked by an SRV. Not for every POI, but for some at least.
Have NPCs retreat to interiors when in settlements or retreat to cover.
Point is, make it difficult for the player to get a lock on them.
What you SHOULDN’T do, is counter SRV usage by super buffing ground weapons/shields or nerfing the SRV. Personally, I think that handheld weapons are already too effective against vehicles.
The actual weapon counter to the SRV, and other vehicles, is the rocket launcher. Certain NPCs should be equipped with the rocket launcher, which they prefer to use against vehicles.
Other different types of weapons could be introduced. Such as a shouldered laser cannon that is too clunky to work on human targets, but works on vehicles.

Encounter Stages
Have POIs that have air support. So you fight a ship above the POI then land to engage ground forces. This way simple encounters occur in stages, and it’s just fun.

Enemy Diversity
Have enemies of different ranks spawn in the same group.
Have different types of enemies, such as powered armour or robots, that require different strategies to bring them down.

Thanks for reading. PS
I think my points are a little weak in some areas because I just didn't have the time to mull over them. I am hoping, through discussion, that we can make a good case for some form of better combat. I really want this game to succeed.

bumping this.

 

[CMDR YV]

@xdeath Thanks for starting this conversation! Agree with you to 110% and this thread should be kept on top because current FPS state and combat progression is beyond boring... While its foundation with movement, shooting mechanics and staggering damage is pretty decent!

On topic:

I agree that ALL weapons should be buffed to G5 and beyond levels of damage while health/shields should be lowered to reduce TTK and make combat more challenging and dynamic. Also, argument that shorter TTK will make the game too challenging is already broken by shield-to-health gating damage mechanic which makes even the most OP Executioner an at least TWO-shot killer.

Although, the problem with progression remains. Material grind is there not because FDev had a specific goal to waste precious resources on drawing hundreds of teeni-tini 3D-models of materials. This mechanic is there to hold the player back from acquiring the most powerful weapons and thereby artificially bloating the gameplay time of this content-narrow expansion. But this whole mechanic of material grinding to aquire better weapons/mod them is TOTALLY rediculous in a context of Space Simulator that Elite is. (Would definitely work in a post-apocalyptic setting though! )

The possible solution for not material-based progression would be licensing. Basically, when you start the game you are a Pilots Federations CMDR, a freelancer with lisence to pilot a starship and freedom to ally with any faction. While space is strictly controlled by navies, the on-ground facilities are vulnerable to armed attacks. (Like shootings or acts of terrorism. Both I find extremely terrible and disgusting in IRL context.) Thereby ALL galactic powers have put some strict RESTRICTIONS on possession of firearms, which can be breached by acquiring weapon licenses and buy permissions. System to get a license may look like this:

1. ALL commanders can buy Civ-Grade (civilian versions) of most of the weapons: these versions are semi-automatic only and don`t support any attachments except for scopes and extended mags. (Modification support is limited by 1/2 slots, but can be extended by Engineering!)
2. After reaching a friendly reputation with a faction the Commander can get an invitation to acquire a basic weapons license from a Superpower.
3. Basic license allows commander to purchase full-automatic variants of above mentioned weapons. Also, to complicate things, different powers may have different military doctrines and thereby supply only a limited range of weapons based on manufacturer, like Empire-Lasers, Feds-Kinetics and Alliance/independent-Plasma. Weapons bought with a basic license can not be modified because of restrictions on military gear. (Modification support can be added by Engineering!)
4. After some service for that Superpower (Counted in combat-based missions executed + combat rank + reputation rank.) the Commander may be offered an Advanced weapons license - means purchase of Mil-Grade (military top-grade) weapons with unlocked multiple attachment slots and no need for any Engineering.

Weapons license can be degraded/revoked based on players destructive activities like piracy/homicide/ganking on said superpowers territory. Degrading of weapons license may come with a real-time cooldown. Like - killed some civilians at Achenar - can not purchase military-grade lasers from empire, nor start grinding for a new license for a week.

Reasoning behind civilian/military variants is that while retaining similar per-shot damage it creates possibility of higher damage-per-second for military variants while keeping civilian variants viable because of easier control/higher accuracy of per-shot fire.
Risk of revoking of weapons license may hold gankers at bay and push all players to stronger RP of loyalty to a specific faction.
Also, Engineering in this system is an opportunity for alternative progression instead of mandatory mechanic. The Player can choose between grinding the rank and grinding the materials. Like, you can be a lawless pirate with "connections" and sport a modified civilian rifle that has a military-grade silencer and a full-auto mod.

Same system may be applied to suits (Mil-Grade vs Civ-Grade) and attachments/mods, like thermal-vision for helmet and scope would be definitely locked behind Advanced Weapons license, while a basic suppressor would be buyable in any anarchy system, but unattachable to a starter civilian weapon without engineering.

Need to mention that this alternative progression system while being pretty radical and realistic is extremely low-demanding on development resources because Civ-Grade and Mil-Grade equipment SHOULD be visually identical and only differ with (not damage/health-related!) stats and mod/attachment capacity.

If done right - with such a system even a Newbee CMDR with a Civ-Grade starter pistol will be able to put down a Veteran Player in Mil-Grade modded suit from a point-blank distance, but still be nowhere as effective as abovementioned Veteran with his full-auto Assault Rifle with an extended mag and a termal-scope, which can kill a whole squad of NPC/Players from mid-distance while surrounded by total darkness...