Combat Logging - Definition and Suggested Changes

[NeoTron]

Combat Logging is a very hot topic in Elite Dangerous, and for good reasons. It's something most players involved with PvP have had to deal with. Unfortunately there's a lot of confusion what "combat logging" actually is. I've seen it applied in these cases:

1. Logging out after being interdicted or in other situations, while not actually in combat (in a situation where the logging out player has a reason to feel threatened by another player).
2. Logging out while in combat, after waiting 15 seconds.
3. Logging out instantly while in combat, 100% avoiding death (through a number of methods, all using outside-game mechanics)

Only #3 is actually an exploit and it seems, relatively speaking, quite rare. The other two are fully allowed within the current combat / game rules. However I do agree that all three match the "essence" of combat logging and are detrimental to the PvP aspect of the game. This post is here to suggest some changes to eliminate case 1 and 2 - case 3 is a technical issue that I will not address. The suggestions I have to improve PvP and remove sanctioned combat loggings are listed below. In reality it's very standard and matches most other MMO's that I'm aware of. I.e nothing revolutionary.

1. Remove the possibility to log out while in combat / in danger.
2. Remove ability to log out after interdiction (i.e be considered in-danger), at least until the FDL is back online, for both parties (i.e interdictor and interdictee).
3. Require a 15-30 second timeout while logging out in (potentially) unsafe conditions.
4. The following should be considered safe conditions with instant logout:
   • While docked.
   • While supercruising and not being interdicted.
   • While in normal space, without enemy ships or player ships

These changes wouldn't affect normal game play much but would prevent legal/sanctions way to escape combat by leaving the game. It would also ensure that anyone that does leave suddently did so using shady methods (or in some cases due to crash/loss of Internet). It would significantly clean up the reports of combat loggers as well.

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

Is killing the ED process during combat considered "combat logging"?

 

[ThirdNostril]

Wasn't there a long thread for this? Anyway I think the best solution would be to have AI (matching in skill level/rank) take over the ship belonging to the Logofski as soon as the connection is lost. A period of 2-3 minutes sounds about good?

 

[NeoTron]

That would be case #3. Combat logging exploiting means killing the process, computer or network to avoid combat.

- - - Updated - - -

Wasn't there a long thread for this? Anyway I think the best solution would be to have AI (matching in skill level/rank) take over the ship belonging to the Logofski as soon as the connection is lost. A period of 2-3 minutes sounds about good?

Again, this is true for case #3. I'm talking about logging out using sanctioned methods, case 1 and 2.

 

[Distance]

Regardless of which method is used to the player observing it they all look exactly the same and anyone using them will be treated like a combat logger to me and a lot of people.

If FD showed a message that the player had exited through the menu it would be legal but still frowned upon. If they did do that they would have to up the timer a bit as even the "legitimiate" way to exit is way to short.

Using any of them is, to me dishonourable regardless.

 

[Cody]

Wasn't there a long thread for this?

Yeah... here!

 

[NeoTron]

This thread cares not whether it's dishonorable. It most likely is. That's not the point.

As for the fact that it "looks exactly the same" that is not true.

1. If they aren't in combat, clearly they can log out.
2. If they take damage and suddently disappear, they used the 15s timer.
3. If they stop taking damage and then disappear, it's combat logging.

Sure, it might be hard to see the difference between 2 and 3, but if they are actively being attacked, it's a noticeable difference. What I don't understand is people reporting someone for combat logging when they log out after interdiction without being in combat.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah... here!

I semi-recall that thread, but admit I didn't follow it. It is clear based on the dev post that combat logging is defined exactly as noted in my post, and that "dishonorable logging" is entirely ok.

 

[Distance]

1. If they aren't in combat, clearly they can log out.
2. If they take damage and suddently disappear, they used the 15s timer.
3. If they stop taking damage and then disappear, it's combat logging.

1. Never been disputed
2. Yep but to another player watching it looks the same
3. True but if you're not shooting someone you don't know for sure

If I pirate a player and I'm not shooting and typing to them it looks exactly the same whether they exited through menu of from plug pulling.

This has been the case a couple of times when a trader has asked me "how to I drop cargo".

 

[NeoTron]

I've seen people making reports (in streams) when the interdicted pilot logged out while being scanned actually. In either case, the solutions I proposed in the original thread will remove all possible ways of making a dishonorable logout. That will make it infinitely easier to determine if someone is a combat logger since either they logged out (combat logger) or they didn't.

 

[Distance]

I've seen people making reports (in streams) when the interdicted pilot logged out while being scanned actually. In either case, the solutions I proposed in the original thread will remove all possible ways of making a dishonorable logout. That will make it infinitely easier to determine if someone is a combat logger since either they logged out (combat logger) or they didn't.

I report and video anyone logging out in a "combat" situation.

I agree with your ideas except the timer should be longer.

 

[kobyov]

As a quick fix that could (probably) be implemented without significant changes, I'd suggest the message 'CMDR MrLogoff has logged out' and/or 'Connection to CMDR MrLogoff interrupted' be broadcast within the local scope to make it totally unambiguous as to if it's combat loggin or dishonourable logging.

 

[Distance]

As a quick fix that could (probably) be implemented without significant changes, I'd suggest the message 'CMDR MrLogoff has logged out' and/or 'Connection to CMDR MrLogoff interrupted' be broadcast within the local scope to make it totally unambiguous as to if it's combat loggin or dishonourable logging.

Works for me. It would probably mean any ship that was going to be hostile opening up on the cmdr though so it would certainly discourage it

 

[NeoTron]

Only problem with this it that it could be spammy in stations. I suppose though, you could easily avoid the messaging if they logged out while docked.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

As a quick fix that could (probably) be implemented without significant changes, I'd suggest the message 'CMDR MrLogoff has logged out' and/or 'Connection to CMDR MrLogoff interrupted' be broadcast within the local scope to make it totally unambiguous as to if it's combat loggin or dishonourable logging.

I wouldn't mind seeing a broadcast if a player is attempting to log out. I know this would kill some people's immersion. I think they should get over it. But a toggle on/off probably wouldn't bother me so I guess that's the best answer.

And for people saying that AI should take over, it's not that easy. Because of the P2P nature of the game, I don't think AI can take over. Someone more knowledgeable can correct me on this. I believe the logger's ship is gone, and the attacker doesn't necessarily have any of the logger's ship information, thus can't replicate it in the form of an AI.

 

[NeoTron]

The thing is, the AI thing, if at all, should only happen if a user bypasses the in-game methods of leaving the game. You shouldn't be stuck in-game when logging out normally. And yes, that would be nice but really not the purpose of this post since it's primarily about proposed changes to the allowed way of logging out.

 

[Psycho Romeo]

How about this? Have the log out timer affected by the mass lock of a hostile ship.

 

[Nounverber]

I really don't understand why this has to be so complicated. The game should just leave all ships in game for N seconds regardless of method of disconnect or threat level. *drops mic*

 

[Lucifer Hate]

How about this? Have the log out timer affected by the mass lock of a hostile ship.

This would not work as bigger ships like Anacondas could still be in danger and be able to combat log as they the mass lock dont affect then from smaller ships

 

[kurush]

Is killing the ED process during combat considered "combat logging"?

That's basically the most obvious example. And I think we found already that FDev tries to enforce it even if you use the legit logout function repeatedly if you get reported.

In reality it's very standard and matches most other MMO's that I'm aware of. I.e nothing revolutionary.

It begs a question - did you play any? I am not aware of any MMO that prevents logging out in combat. In some you might find your toon dead, but that doesn't mean anything except a base trip. I am thinking SWTOR where you don't even have to pay equipment wear and tear if you get a PvP death.

 

[Majinvash]

Combat logging makes a joke of Open.

I have sent in the last week around 15 reports to FD support with accompanying videos.

I get a polite "Thats for your report" back but I also received one saying that the 15 seconds log out is legit.
I know its legit because FD put it in, but its also game breaking.

15 seconds is nothing, what it is. Is an insult to anyone doing any sort of PVP.

IF FD really mean that combat logging is an exploit, then the 15 second timer is crippling them and giving loggers a free way out of danger.

It needs to be sorted before we can even start making a dent in video'd end process loggers.