Combat outfitting overhaul

Firstly, I appreciate the work FDev have done over the ships outfitting. The game mechanics has so much different entities to play with, like a lot of different tools and combat equipment, and I'm annoyed that combat ship building is so straight-line and stacking based.

My target is to give everyone a possibility to build a ship for his own playstyle. The idea is to describe ship's combat possibilities in three ways - durability, agility and firepower. If you want to build a combat ship, you have to choose between these three or combine them in different ways, but the idea is that no one ship should be outstanding in all three characteristics, and any of this characteristics ship can use as the main combat advantage if properly built.


Some specifics:
1. Mass should affect a ship speed, rotation rates and acceleration much more than we have now. Like we have it on small ships with EPT - heavily armored ship should be really slow, getting bigger penalties than -20 m/s to max speed, and turn/accelerate much slower.

2. And vice versa, lightweight ships should have a possibility to evade hits and use their speed and overall agility to outmaneuver armored builds, and effectively use boom-zoom tactics.

With current game balance, there are no reasons to reduce ship mass now, and armor stacking will always be preferable, except some special non-combat racing builds with EPT.

3. The main limiter in a combat ship building should be a Power Plant energy output, and PP should be the only module which affects the overall ship combat capabilities. PP output should be very limited, and we should to choose between durability, agility and firepower according to our playstyle and ship's basic stats.

4. Other modules, like shields, thrusters, armor, etc. should have a much bigger variety in mass and energy consumption. We have a module grades E-A now, and we can make usable all of them, depending on how much PP energy we allocate for our shields, thrusters, guns, etc; and how much agility we can sacrifice for the ship durability or module output.

5. Guns should consume much more power, and installing guns to all hardpoints should consume a LOT of energy, so you couldn't install a powerful thrusters or a heavy shield, or probably both.

Installing A-graded thrusters you should to know, that you will probably have no energy for installing a guns to all of your hardpoints, or for a high-grade durable shield. And that should be a normal situation!

6. Engineering should work like a module specializing: exchanging between mass and power consumption, strength and mass, applying special effects for example. The main idea is that engineers doesn't increase overall module output, but precisely tune your module stats to fit your build and playstyle better. SCB engineering could be a current in-game example.

All these changes should make maneuverable builds more maneuverable, slow builds become sluggish, and reduce time-to-kill a lot to make hit-and-run tactics possible to use, and to make a speed and acceleration a true advantage. To make a fight possible to win with a fewer amount of guns, but with a compensation as a significant agility/strength boost.

Example:
Imagine, we have a Python as a true multi-purpose ship. Basic speed stat is low, but it's pretty durable.
- We can use lightweight armor mods and powerful thrusters to create an interceptor with an opporunity to impose or escape fight; with, for example, 2 x Advanced Plasmas - we can't afford more due to the PP's limited output;

- Or, we can make an armor-stacked tank with a big firepower, which can stand in a fight for a long. But it can't leave fight immediately, and can't chase enemies - it's very slow due to the armor and weaker engines, so - defensive style of combat.

- Or, we can make a medium-weight shield-tank with a medium firepower, mediocre at all for balanced gameplay.

- Or something else...

I'd like to see all those builds viable and have their own role in the game.

Pros:
- Increases a number of viable builds A LOT - agile builds for assault-style gameplay, armored for defensive and more strategic, or mediocre at all - depending on what do you prefer, or how you combine E-A graded modules;
- Doesn't require programming of new mechanics - numeric values rebalance;
- Reduces gap between combat and multi-purpose builds - some builds may have empty slots left, allowing to fill them with cargo racks;
- Engineering is not mandatory to be effective in combat - unengineered ships are just less specialized, and not a garbage at all;
- Much easier to enter combat and PvP;

Cons:
- Requires complete re-definition of all parameters of all modules - massive balancing and testing work;
- May require some netcode improvements for more accurate agile ships displaying via p2p network.
 
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Agreed. Current heat and visibility management is binary - overheating or not, visible or not. If we could have a steep and more gameplay-influencing visibility and heat management system, we could consider emissions level as an another stat to play around. But it requires additional programming, unlike changes I have described above, and I think it may be outside of this topic.
 
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Basically we already have this as different ship classes, for example:
- fast and weak eagles
- fat cutters with a lot of fire power
 
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Basically we already have this as different ship classes, for example:
- fast and weak eagles
- fat cutters with a lot of fire power

These Cutters can hitscan Eagles now in FAOff mode, while being fully armored, with C8 shield and loaded to the top with SCBs. Yes, Eagle can run, but logic says that Cutter vs Eagle combat should be meaningless for both - Eagle shouldn't have a chance to break Cutter's shields, and Cutter shouldn't have a chance to hit an Eagle, while not using turreted weapons.

And my main idea is to make these differences significant between builds - for example, agressive maneuvering combat should be preferable for Lighweighted Python (not durable, but highly agile), hit-and-run volleys for the Interceptor Python (superior speed, low durability, medim firepower but with high one-shot damage), defensive combat style for the Heavily Armored Python (heavy armor, high firepower, very durable and can fight several ships, but cannot initiate/escape fights and track agile enemies --> uses turreted weapons)

Capped PP output and much greater module power consumption and weight increase progression should make a ship builiding more brain-involving, not a maxing out of an overall ship characteristics.
 
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These Cutters can hitscan Eagles now in FAOff mode, while being fully armored, with C8 shield and loaded to the top with SCBs. Yes, Eagle can run, but logic says that Cutter vs Eagle combat should be meaningless for both - Eagle shouldn't have a chance to break Cutter's shields, and Cutter shouldn't have a chance to hit an Eagle, while not using turreted weapons.

But Eagle in FAOff is still faster than Cutter in FAOff...
Turrets barely help against fast targets in close distance, they turn slower than gimbals and have blind zones, there is always safe place which is easy to find and maintain especially if target with turrets rotates slowly. In a long distance same because of bias. And do not forget about chaffs.

And my main idea is to make these differences significant between builds - for example, agressive maneuvering combat should be preferable for Lighweighted Python (not durable, but highly agile), hit-and-run volleys for the Interceptor Python (superior speed, low durability, medim firepower but with high one-shot damage), defensive combat style for the Heavily Armored Python (heavy armor, high firepower, very durable and can fight several ships, but cannot initiate/escape fights and track agile enemies --> uses turreted weapons)

Capped PP output and much greater module power consumption and weight increase progression should make a ship builiding more brain-involving, not a maxing out of an overall ship characteristics.

Seems that no one will use edge cases, because:
- fast and lightweight will explode from single shell of flac cannon or single hit of rapid fire weapon
- heavy and strong will survive much longer but eventually explode unable to make any shot and even not having ability to escape.
So only "in between" variations will be usable.

...How heavy eagle should deal with light cutter?..

There's a good mechanic in the existing spaceship design actually. And it does not seem like random or not reasonable. But that there's a lot of slightly not correct reviews and tests online which done by people without understanding what and why happen and where to look for result.
 
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But Eagle in FAOff is still faster than Cutter in FAOff...
Turrets barely help against fast targets in close distance, they turn slower than gimbals and have blind zones, there is always safe place which is easy to find and maintain especially if target with turrets rotates slowly. In a long distance same because of bias. And do not forget about chaffs.

Faster, but not enogh maneuverable to fully evade Cutter's fire. Meduium-skilled or better Cutter can use FAOff + boost to have enough time to melt Eagle's shield and bulkeads. Few, but enough. I'm talking about fixed weapons. Talking about gimbaled/turreted i can say that chaffs are not a panacea. And this Cutter is still armored, SCB-loaded and with max performing engines without any PP output complications.

Seems that no one will use edge cases, because:
- fast and lightweight will explode from single shell of flac cannon or single hit of rapid fire weapon
- heavy and strong will survive much longer but eventually explode unable to make any shot and even not having ability to escape.
So only "in between" variations will be usable.

1. From my PvP experience in different flight/space sims and combat games, egde cases are usually (but not always) the best performing ones in hands of skillful players.
2. It doesn't matter if ship building still stays diverse. IMO, if edge cases won't work, it will make combat ship building more thoughtful and prevent formation of a stale meta.
3.Turret damage, rotation speed, armor strength, equipment weight, etc... It's all about numeric values. We're discussing a concept, not a specific values! It's an iterative process of a definition of those values, and it's a devs's work to define them!

There's a good mechanic in the existing spaceship design actually. And it does not seem like random or not reasonable. But that there's a lot of slightly not correct reviews and tests online which done by people without understanding what and why happen and where to look for result.

In my opinion, current ship building system is a complete garbage. It doesn't involve any of your skill or doesn't consider your fighting style or tactics. It's just straightforward ship upgrading with the only one result with a few variations, like bi-weaves or prismatics, or a weapon loadout (talking about PvE, in PvP we have a hard-to-break meta of plasma weapons).
And I'm trying to break this principle and replace it with a balance-around principle used in most of nice PvP games, like EVE Online for example.
 
Sorry mate I dont agree with you. Who in their right mind while flying an Eagle would entertain taking on a heavily armed cutter? Cutter vs Thargoids ?????

You lost me with your over-use of the word "Should" it sounds too much of a whine. You are obviously biased towards smaller ships, I guess that is your play style, that's fine, pick on someone your own size. Lets look at it another way, players spend 1.2-1.5 billion on a heavily armoured and armed high end ship and are attacked by mongrels in "balanced" sidewinders and expect a fair fight?...oh wait a minute, there are players out there that fly in smaller ships with flight assist off and can skillfully remain behind the larger ships continuing to fire upon them.

Also, heat is already a big problem.


PS, I have small, medium and large fighters. To me its fine as is.
 
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the Cutter needs a nerf, that's my opinion, or every big ship for what it's worth. EZ-mode defense stacking without huge drawbacks shouldn't be a thing. a full wing of pacifier Vultures should be able to get thru a Cutter's shields with ease, yet a prismo Cutter stacked with boosters, guardian shield reinforcements and fully engineered can take sustained fire from 8 Pacifiers and still low-wake with active shields...
 
Sorry mate I dont agree with you. Who in their right mind while flying an Eagle would entertain taking on a heavily armed cutter? Cutter vs Thargoids ?????

You lost me with your over-use of the word "Should" it sounds too much of a whine. You are obviously biased towards smaller ships, I guess that is your play style, that's fine, pick on someone your own size. Lets look at it another way, players spend 1.2-1.5 billion on a heavily armoured and armed high end ship and are attacked by mongrels in "balanced" sidewinders and expect a fair fight?...oh wait a minute, there are players out there that fly in smaller ships with flight assist off and can skillfully remain behind the larger ships continuing to fire upon them.

Also, heat is already a big problem.


PS, I have small, medium and large fighters. To me its fine as is.

1. I'm talking not about "Eagle must win against Cutter", and not about my plaing style. I'm talking about that large ships don't behave as large ones.
2. You can not appeal to the price, because this is not a balancing characteristic.
3. Sorry about "should" overusing, English is not my native language.
4. Heat is not a big problem. It can be a problem, sometimes, but a big one... I've missed a moment yesterday when I've heated up to 370% and the only significant damage I got was... cargo hatch disabled. And I'm succssfully flying my another ship, double-banking Vulture, without any sufficent heat damage.
5. As I've said before, skillful Cutter will always have a possibility to hit an Eagle or something similar.
6. I'm not biased towards smaller ships, I'm against the mindless armor/shield booster stacking without any drawbacks, which we can see mostly on the large ships.

the Cutter needs a nerf, that's my opinion, or every big ship for what it's worth. EZ-mode defense stacking without huge drawbacks shouldn't be a thing. a full wing of pacifier Vultures should be able to get thru a Cutter's shields with ease, yet a prismo Cutter stacked with boosters, guardian shield reinforcements and fully engineered can take sustained fire from 8 Pacifiers and still low-wake with active shields...

You guys both missing that I'm talking abot not buffs/nerfs, but about a PP-limited ship building system. Even if It won't affect the inter-class balance, I'd like to see module mass/energy consumption significantly affect an overall ship speed+maneuverability/strength/firepower characteristics, that's the point.
 
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The OP is exactly what is needed, but it's been an ongoing issue for a long time. People want their Anacondas to fly like fighters for some reason, even though it throws all semblance of balance out the window. Ideally, something like a Cutter or an Anaconda would be much more of a static target, utilizing their current armor and shield advantages, turrets, and SLFs for defense against small ships.
 
Mass should affect a ship speed, rotation rates and acceleration much more than we have now.

totally.

The main limiter in a combat ship building should be a Power Plant energy output

also, but you're just describing the vulture pre-engineers. good times! :'(

also not just power, outfitting should be a real compromise between core aspects of the mechanics: power, heat, stealth, mass, speed, agility, defense and offense. now you just have to grind everything to max and have it all, there's no other sensible choice except edge cases or troll builds. plus stealth doesn't really work, and hull tanking is quite broken.

btw ...
flogging_dead_horse_what.jpg
 
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Darrett, znort

I appreciate that you guys got my point. It feels that bigger part of the community doesn't want to have any challenge in combat at all. I understand, that FDev want to make the game accessible for anyone, but I believe that it's possible to make a combat around "easy to learn - hard to master" principle.


The OP is exactly what is needed, but it's been an ongoing issue for a long time.

Yep. But it doesn't matter if it will be done in the right way till game lifecycle ends. I'm ready to wait.
I cannot say anything about FDev development organization and priorities, but I think that it could be done during 1-1.5 combat-oriented seasons or 2-3 another-feature-oriented-seasons.


also, but you're just describing the vulture pre-engineers. good times! :'(

Not exactly, but something similar, in much more deep and flexible way. Pre-engineering era had only A and D grades valuable.
 
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Not exactly, but something similar, in much more deep and flexible way. Pre-engineering era had only A and D grades valuable.

haha, true, but well E will never be valuable by definition, C is moot with credit inflation anyway and B ... B actually did have some value.

sorry if it looks like i'm hijacking your thread, but i really think engineers is what spoiled the fun here, it's definitely where things start to go south. what you ask for was actually there but got washed away by it.
 
It feels that bigger part of the community doesn't want to have any challenge in combat at all. I understand, that FDev want to make the game accessible for anyone, but I believe that it's possible to make a combat around "easy to learn - hard to master" principle.

indeed but just wanting to point out that if other people don't comment it's not necessarily because they don't want challenge. this is a dead horse (see picture :)). frontier has transitioned into the opposite direction as you suggest because it is financially sound for them. they don't need a niche title to be a even more niche game. so as it stands and with retention being what it is i would bet most of the players aren't even aware of this change, and those who are don't bother beating ...
 
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haha, true, but well E will never be valuable by definition, C is moot with credit inflation anyway and B ... B actually did have some value.
As I said in the first post, E-grade could be valuable if you want a module but don't have enough energy or mass margin for higher grades. You shouldn't consider with the current module grades balancing, I've imagined something like mass and energy consumption progression following the module performance increase.

So, I can append to my first post there:
E-grade install could be meaningful if E grade was the most energy/mass efficient. And vice versa, the most performing A-graded module should be less efficient than others --> efficiency decrease with the module performance progression.

Off-topic
sorry if it looks like i'm hijacking your thread, but i really think engineers is what spoiled the fun here, it's definitely where things start to go south. what you ask for was actually there but got washed away by it.

I've spent a bunch of time to make this topic alive and get people interested. Will be this thread viewed by devs or not depends on the discussion activity there, and on how long this thread will be on the top of the suggestions page. And that's not my thread, I'm only the topicstarter. So, I don't think that "hijack" word is relevant here.

indeed but just wanting to point out that if other people don't comment it's not necessarily because they don't want challenge. this is a dead horse (see picture :)). frontier has transitioned into the opposite direction as you suggest because it is financially sound for them. they don't need a niche title to be a even more niche game. so as it stands and with retention being what it is i would bet most of the players aren't even aware of this change, and those who are don't bother beating ...

A few posts before I was blamed in wining and author tried to convince me that everything is fine now with 1.5-billion Cutters behaving like a flying turrets. And there are a lot of people who are strongly against reducing the time-to-kill or mega-shields nerf, you can see them in the every relevant thread.
 
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E-grade install could be meaningful if E grade was the most energy/mass efficient. And vice versa, the most performing A-graded module should be less efficient than others --> efficiency decrease with the module performance progression.

i think this is already so, at least with some modules e.g. shield boosters. i do use E grade boosters in combat builds if i aim for speed because they give more for the ton, and iirc for the mw aswell, and the resistance bonus is the same. true, i see no other use for E modules because the efficiency is not worth the penalty in performance. so yeah, that would need to be tweaked.
 
i think this is already so, at least with some modules e.g. shield boosters.

Yes, but there are no reasons to install them now. I've experimented with the reverski-Mamba build and 30t mass reduction (including replacing shield bossters with the D-graded RA ones) gave something about +7 m/s of speed. It's pretty meaningless, IMHO, and I'm not talking about PP output, what isn't a problem anymore.

I'm expecting long range builds to be something like glass cannons - max speed to control the distance, without any heavy armor and high enough firepower to destroy the enemy before he gets into the fire range or escape.
With the current game balance we have a heavily armored-shield booster stacked-high dps-fast enough to control the distance long range reverski builds that are pretty efficient in fight, but ultimately boring to fight for/with.
 
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As someone who plays this game fairly “casually” I’m always slightly amused by the “I’m so good at this game it needs to made harder so it’s still a challenge for me” brigade. ;)

I only have moderate levels of engineering unlocked (G3 mostly, some things at G5, others at G1 or not at all) and had to flee from two engineered NPC vultures during an Elite assassination mission, escaping with 13% hull left on my Corvette. Sure, I’d lost all but one ring of shields taking out the main target (a Fer De Lance) whilst the pair of Vultures wailed on me with their beam lasers but, trust me, a properly flown vulture is more than nimble enough to sit in a ‘vettes blind spot ...

If there been only 1 Vulture? Yeh. I’d have had him. And quite right too - if the “smallest warship in the Federal Navy” can’t take out a single executive-toy-fighter then something would be very wrong with the balance in the game! Two Vultures? Probably still fine but throw that Fer De Lance in the mix, making a powerful wing of 3, yeh ... that should be challenging. I’m learning to use SCBs right now and then will try one again but the balance feels about right to me.

Now I know there are folks out there with 10,000MJ shields that would have simply parked up and laughed whilst annihilating all three of those ships. Then there are those who play the game 24x7 and would have taken them all on (and won!) in an unengineered Sidewinder packing pea-shooters. But please don’t scale the entire game to those outliers.
 
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