Combined Ship Scanners

[mossfoot]

One problem as the game grow and we get more stuff for it is that ships are getting awfully cramped for internal space. This is an even bigger problem for explorers. With planetary landings introduced most explorers WILL want to have a shield in case of accidents, so a long range explorer pretty much needs six internals:

Shield
SRV hanger
Fuel scoop
Field Repair Kit
Discovery scanner
Detailed scanner

For many ships that leaves zero internal slots for even a token amount of cargo they might come across on their travels. By adding the hanger snug ships are either cramped, or no longer viable explorers

But why do we have to have discovery and detail scanners separate? These are Class 1 sized units, and most ships outside of Small class ships don't even use Class 1 slots (the FDL being the only exception)

Can't we add a new product that combines them at a higher cost than their combined prices, have it take up a class 2 or 3 slot? That would free up an internal slot and make more ships exploring viable.


What do you think?

 

[Universal Evil]

As an explore at present time I think it sounds like a great idea/suggestion...

+1 rep

 

[himurastewie]

I've been wanting one of these since the Diamondback was released in 1.3. Since FD seems to be pretty adamant about not swapping around internals on that ship, the alternative is to have a class 2 scanner package that combines the ADS+DSS. Or implement some kind of module stacking, i.e. a C2 module slot can be divided down to 2x C1. The outfitting system they've built is becoming pretty limited as more ships are introduced, so we're starting to see ship layouts that are inflexible and that may have a lot of wasted space.

Then again, the outfitting aspect of this game needs a whole lot of love in general. Most of it having to do with explaining what, exactly, each module upgrade does and how it affects the ship. This includes giving us actual numbers and values beyond just the general knowledge that a bigger class number is generally better than a smaller number, and a lower position in the alphabet is better than a higher one. That's for a different thread, though.

 

[Ubiquitous Che]

I disagree.

I can see why people would want this. The problem is that doing this reduces the value of any ship with a large number of internal components.

Effectively, this is the same as letting a DBE owner pay to have an extra internal component. It messes with the power curve for ships even further, and it makes it easier to multi-role without consequences.

Both of those consequences are not to be accepted lightly.

And I say this as a very recent DBE owner (I swapped to piracy this week for fun, and don't see myself going back any time soon).

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Combining theh two scanners into a class-2 slot is a great idea.

It messes with the power curve for ships even further, and it makes it easier to multi-role without consequences.

When it is purely for the scanners, then it has no effect at all on any "power curve". However, combining combat-oriented modules would do this.

 

[Ubiquitous Che]

Combining theh two scanners into a class-2 slot is a great idea.

When it is purely for the scanners, then it has no effect at all on any "power curve". However, combining combat-oriented modules would do this.

Power curve applies to all the roles.

The Diamondback Explorer has only 5 slots. The Asp Explorer has 7.

Ideally you want to have at least 6 slots for exploration. Which means that the Diamondback has to sacrifice something when the go exploring.

Asp Explorer owners don't have to make any such tradeoff. Which makes the Asp more desirable for the exploration role than the Diamondback Explorer.

If DBE owners weren't faced with any tradeoffs, then the Asp becomes less desirable.

Combining the scanners would allow DBE owners to accommodate their needs without trade-offs. This undermines the value of the Asp Explorer. It effectively allows a synergy that pushes the Diamondback Explorer up so it is above the power-curve for exploration ships.

If we were going to make this change, then in order to keep the power curve in line for exploration we would need to take away one slot from the Diamondback Explorer and the ASP... But that would then push both of those ships under the curve from their current locations for the other roles.

The question to ask is not: Would such a component be cool and valuable and desired by explorers? Because of course the answer to this is 'yes'.

The question to ask is: Do we want to flatten the power curve for exploration ships but not anything else? Because that is what this component would inevitably do. And I think the answer, for now, is 'no'.

 

[mossfoot]

Power curve applies to all the roles.

The Diamondback Explorer has only 5 slots. The Asp Explorer has 7.

Ideally you want to have at least 6 slots for exploration. Which means that the Diamondback has to sacrifice something when the go exploring.

Asp Explorer owners don't have to make any such tradeoff. Which makes the Asp more desirable for the exploration role than the Diamondback Explorer.

If DBE owners weren't faced with any tradeoffs, then the Asp becomes less desirable.

Actually you already are sacrificing something even with the 5 slots - cargo.

If you combined the scanners, you could have the essentials mentioned:

Shield
SRV hanger
Fuel scoop
Field Repair Kit
Discovery scanner/Detailed scanner combo

But you'd have no cargo space. And since there are indeed things to find and collect out there that take up storage space (not just materials) that still constitutes a trade off.

Also, there is a difference between having a trade off and more or less forcing people to go for X ship if they want to do things. You don't want the ASP to be the ONLY choice for exploration for those sticking to medium or smaller ships.

 

[Ubiquitous Che]

Actually you already are sacrificing something even with the 5 slots - cargo.

If you combined the scanners, you could have the essentials mentioned:

Shield
SRV hanger
Fuel scoop
Field Repair Kit
Discovery scanner/Detailed scanner combo

But you'd have no cargo space. And since there are indeed things to find and collect out there that take up storage space (not just materials) that still constitutes a trade off.

I was exploring without a field repair.

My DBE had:

Shields
Cargo
Fuel Scoop
Discovery Scanner
Surface Scanner

Working out what to give up to get that SRV hangar is painful. But it's meant to be a little bit painful. That's the whole point of a lower-tier ship.

 

[mossfoot]

I was exploring without a field repair.

My DBE had:

Shields
Cargo
Fuel Scoop
Discovery Scanner
Surface Scanner

Working out what to give up to get that SRV hangar is painful. But it's meant to be a little bit painful. That's the whole point of a lower-tier ship.

You're exploring without field repair. Other people wouldn't want to. So it's still a sacrifice. My point remains - you can combine the two and still make it a tight fight for many smaller ships without it being too debilitating. Giving up one bit of kit is fine - two is a bit much. And don't forget there may be OTHER things to put in these slots in the future. We're not going to get more internal slots, but we no doubt will get more things to put in them.

 

[Witcherman]

I agree!

 

[AhabTheBad]

I'm with you on combining the discovery and detailed surface scanner.

If you're talking an advanced/disco package, make it a class 2 slot at just under 2mil credits.

Other modules, maybe not, but I have been asking for the scanner combo to be created for quite a while now.

 

[Lestat]

I think it fine the way it is. Each ship has it pros and cons. If they did not We would be flying a Sidewinder with 300 cargo on it.

 

[mossfoot]

I think it fine the way it is. Each ship has it pros and cons. If they did not We would be flying a Sidewinder with 300 cargo on it.

Really? Did you see the point I made at the start? An explorer ship needing six slots for dedicated exploration, or seven if you want even a token amount of cargo)?

You're basically limiting exploration to the Asp and Anaconda that way (if jump range is also a concern of yours). It didn't matter so much before, but now that added slot for the SRV changes the balance that existed before. A lot of explorers enjoyed flying in something that wasn't directly intended as an explorer but did the job well. I got to Elite Exploration in a T-6, for example.

And what happens when there's another item to add to your internals later on?

You're still basically forcing people to fill up two bigger slots with smaller items for no good reason. As I mentioned at the start, the only ship above a Small class that even has Class 1 slots is the FDL. So it's especially pointless to split them in larger ships, especially when they're part of the same hardware.

Hell make the combo sensor package a Class 3 internal instead of Class 2 if you want a more significant tradeoff, but it's something that most explorers are going to need unless we want the deep filled with only Asps and Anaconda.

 

[Lestat]

There also the new cobra.

Each ship has a weakness. If every ship could hold all the stuff then why bothering upgrade to a larger ship? Exploration can still go on With out the SRV Hanger. Some even risk flying with no Repair units. Even the Large ships has weakness like turn rate and such. Some might not be able to dock at small stations.

 

[mossfoot]

Weaknesses are fine, and it's not like all ships would suddenly become explorer class if the two sensors were combined. The Diamondback Explorer, for example, would still be short a slot for what you might call an optimal build. It's not so bad to compromise if there's one thing you have to leave behind. The same can't be said if you have to leave two things behind.

Consider: Taking an SRV pretty much also requires having a cargo rack, because of the number of things you will find out there and the fact your SRV can only hold 2 tons in it.

So if you want an SRV, you have to have cargo. You also have to have shields, because with all the different gravities and surfaces, the potential for accidents is much higher than exploring pre-planetary landing. You have to have both scanners. You have to have a fuel scoop.

That's six items that are pretty much mandatory. Only the auto-repair kit could be seen as optional. And long distance explorers are going to want that too. And that's all just for explorers who want to land on planets.

I'm all for strengths, weaknesses, and variety, but when exploration boils down to having X slots available for kit, you are limiting explorers to a very narrow number of ships. Pretty much Asps and Anacondas.

Also, not everything is about upgrading to a larger ship. Plenty of people are happy with midsized ships. But as an explorer I'd be limited to the Asp or the Type 6 for a mid-sized ships with enough slots on it to do things right.

You're not opening up the game by doing that, you're increasing specialization. There's already plenty of ships unsuitable or partially suitable for exploration, why make that situation even worse?

 

[Lestat]

So what you are going to have to do. Choice what you want in a Diamondback explorer to be. It should not be all in one ship. Which is what you are asking. Some would take the Shield out. So they could explore and land on planets. It brings a risk to it. Other players will look at other ships. Cobra mkIV Which should have the cargo space you need with out being a Large ship.

 

[mossfoot]

As I pointed out, even with a combined scanner most ships will have to still make some kind of compromise or sacrifice. This would just make the number of good explorers slightly larger. Or should the Asp be the only real choice out there?

 

[Lestat]

There also a Cobra mkIV which is also a small ship. So it smaller then the Asp.

Cobra Mk IV

 

[Phil^]

One problem as the game grow and we get more stuff for it is that ships are getting awfully cramped for internal space. This is an even bigger problem for explorers. With planetary landings introduced most explorers WILL want to have a shield in case of accidents, so a long range explorer pretty much needs six internals:

Shield
SRV hanger
Fuel scoop
Field Repair Kit
Discovery scanner
Detailed scanner

For many ships that leaves zero internal slots for even a token amount of cargo they might come across on their travels. By adding the hanger snug ships are either cramped, or no longer viable explorers

But why do we have to have discovery and detail scanners separate? These are Class 1 sized units, and most ships outside of Small class ships don't even use Class 1 slots (the FDL being the only exception)

Can't we add a new product that combines them at a higher cost than their combined prices, have it take up a class 2 or 3 slot? That would free up an internal slot and make more ships exploring viable.


What do you think?

The scanners shouldnt be internal modules at all - but utility slot modules like the cargo scanner, wake scanner, bounty scanner etc.
Far more consistent that way

 

[Mengy]

This is actually a much easier fix than to create a "combined" expensive scanner. All you need to do is make the Detailed Surface Scanner a utility mount and the entire situation is solved. And it even makes sense since the Kill Warrant Scanner is already a utility mount too. By just moving the DSS to utilities you free up that one internal and suddenly every ship that is struggling to find a place for the SRV Hangar can now carry it. No combat ships are effected, nothing becomes unbalanced, you wouldn't even need to change any prices nor power ratings.