commodities and cargo holds...one size fits all?

In the X-series some commodities like mining rock is XL and thus will only fit into a ship that has a big enough cargo hold to fit XL commodities in. Same goes for some equipment, which only the larger ships can carry.

I think this is well implemented and works realisticly; How is this going to work in ED, can the smallest ships carry huge mining rocks ect, basically is it a case of one size fits all?
 

Stachel

Banned
A fair point. 1T of anything is still just 1T but obviously the cubic meters involved will vary tremendously between something like mineral ore and water. Raises an interesting point and adds a level of complexity I'd personally like to see the devs explore: profit vs volume etc.
 
If the mining machine is very large, too large for the space ships, perhaps, it can be delivered on site by a specialized company, after the commander made ​​the soil analysis to exploit ?
 
Seeing as weight really has no relevance in space due to either no gravity or differing gravities on various planets and stations it's not hard to imagine tonnage becoming a measure for standard sizing of cargo. *

Much like today's containerised goods, you get the short 20 ton containers and the longer 40 ton ones, of course they actually carry differing amounts depending whats in them but they are stock sizes.

Maybe in the Elite universe cargo trade it's just easier to sell cargo in standarised sizes, for example 1000 litres of water in a square container could be the standard size for 1 tonne of cargo.



*yes i know mass is still important, but trying to keep it simple.
 
It's a good point, and if implemented in typical Frontier Development's manner, it would bring a lot to the table and add a new layer of depth to Elite.

I hope they consider something along the principle of what the OP has suggested.
 
Seeing as weight really has no relevance in space due to either no gravity or differing gravities on various planets and stations it's not hard to imagine tonnage becoming a measure for standard sizing of cargo. *

Much like today's containerised goods, you get the short 20 ton containers and the longer 40 ton ones, of course they actually carry differing amounts depending whats in them but they are stock sizes.

Maybe in the Elite universe cargo trade it's just easier to sell cargo in standarised sizes, for example 1000 litres of water in a square container could be the standard size for 1 tonne of cargo.



*yes i know mass is still important, but trying to keep it simple.
Mass is very relevant even in a zero gravity environment.
 
I believe something like this has come up before. I'm having a look through the forums to find the thread but if my memory serves (and it usual doesn't, so feel free to correct me lol!) the 'ton' referred more to volume rather than weight. Newsletter 10 had images of cargo like this:

CargoHold_003.jpg


It appears to show different commodities in fixed sized containers. Perhaps meaning that rather than being an actual ton (in weight), they hold a certain volume of product, in much the same way as todays cargo containers as mentioned by popuptoaster.

So when you go to the market and buy a 'ton' of water, you essentially get a 10' x 3' (complete guess from the pic!) cylindrical container full of water. If you buy a 'ton' of mineral ore, you get a 10' x 3' container of ore, and so on.
 
The main problem (in a realistic simulation) with using standard canisters is that a canister can weigh a lot! For example, a canister of gold would weigh several tons.

And it is the mass of hull/cargo that affects acceleration and jump range.
 
The main problem (in a realistic simulation) with using standard canisters is that a canister can weigh a lot! For example, a canister of gold would weigh several tons.

And it is the mass of hull/cargo that affects acceleration and jump range.

Not necessarily, maybe your ship is already capable of hitting it's maximum acceleration when at the maximum mass it could possibly be but is slowed down by it's computers to the maximum levels it's human crew can cope with so when you load it with extra weight it doesn't get any slower as it's already restricted for human safety. The main drive and attitude thrusters could simply dial down when your ship has less mass so you don't become mush.

Also we have no idea really how the jump drive works, maybe it's unaffected by mass, maybe it's simply the size of the ship it has to generate a bubble around that effects it's range.


In a fictional universe there are many explanations possible for the way the game mechanics work.
 
Not necessarily, maybe your ship is already capable of hitting it's maximum acceleration when at the maximum mass it could possibly be but is slowed down by it's computers to the maximum levels it's human crew can cope with so when you load it with extra weight it doesn't get any slower as it's already restricted for human safety. The main drive and attitude thrusters could simply dial down when your ship has less mass so you don't become mush.

Also we have no idea really how the jump drive works, maybe it's unaffected by mass, maybe it's simply the size of the ship it has to generate a bubble around that effects it's range.


In a fictional universe there are many explanations possible for the way the game mechanics work.

I have no doubt about the existence of handwavium.

I was referring to realistic physics and, to some extent, previous game in the series which explicitly showed the effect of mass on acceleration.
 
Perhaps "a ton of X" would mean as much X as you can carry in the standard container that carries a ton of water (or some other material that has been used to set the standard.... rice, flour maybe)?

In Elite originally I think the gems and such like were measured in grammes or something, weren't they?
 
I have no doubt about the existence of handwavium.

I was referring to realistic physics and, to some extent, previous game in the series which explicitly showed the effect of mass on acceleration.

You could well be right, i would welcome more variety and choices to make regarding cargo size and mass, I'm not sure though that the extra effoert will be put into it.

I hope I'm wrong as it would add more fun to trading than just

"how cheapo can i buy and then how much profit can i make?"
 
If ED is an extrapolation of real world practices, and things in ED generally seem to be, then presumably the future would see us using stuff similar to the ULDs (unit load devices) which airlines currently use.

ULDs are standard-sized containers which conform to IATA (international air transport association) and ATA (air transport association of America) guidelines. Sometimes the designations are IATA or ATA ones, but these are simply different names for similar containers, for example, an ATA LD-8 container is the same as an IATA Type 6A. But regardless of which designation they use, they have to meet certain criteria, for example, they have to state the relevant ULD Type Code, the maximum gross weight (MGW) in kilograms and pounds and the actual tare weight (TARE) in kilograms and pounds. Beyond this, there are additional letter and number codes which further identify a particular container as specific to a task, for example, some containers are refrigerated, some for livestock, some certified for the main deck, some only to be carried in the lower cargo hold, etc, with much of this to do with fire suppression capabilities on the aircraft. Because of this, there are still some cargoes that cannot be carried by air of course, for example if you have ever ordered some types of paint online, you might find them arriving in the mail with a big prominent sticker on the packaging stating 'not to be carried by air'.

Naturally, one can take this kind of thing too far in a game, after all, we do not want to be simulating the job of a loadmaster or cargo ramp agent, nor do we want to be signing off a 'zig-zag' (the nickname for the load sheet given to the pilot to sign). So I think that a simpler system would be to - as Angus suggests in a post above - simply imagine that the 'space transport association' or some such governing body of the future, has decreed that 1 ton is equivalent to a ton of pure water on a 1G planet (or some other such convenient commodity) and everything else for transport is measured by that designation. This would be sensible, because one would assume that cargo bays on spacecraft would follow the present day practice which airliner designers follow, whereby they literally design the aircraft around the shape of containers such as the LD-8, which is angled on the bottom sides in order to conform to the shape of an airliner's lower deck hold. This is why aircraft from rival manufacturers tend to look very similar in dimensions, for example the Boeing 737 and the Airbus A320.

In ED, we might therefore have such add-ons you have to buy for your ship in order to transport certain goods. Although there are going to be specific passenger ships in ED, one could also include upgrades such as cargo bay life support, specialised fire suppression gear, airtight sectioning, additional escape hatches, G-rated crash deceleration protective netting and bulkheads, etc, all of which have a broadly similar real world equivalent on todays cargo aircraft.

In other words, some additional interesting realism in ED, but without turning a fun space trading game into a boring techno-fest. And this could even add an element of gameplay too, for example, you could take a chance on carrying potentially flammable cargo without the recommended fire suppression gear fitted to your craft and risk a spot check fine if you get inspected, or possibly your ship being more likely to explode if fired upon under such circumstances.
 
Volume classes and weight could be mixed - h = unit height and t = tonne:
1h volume = 1t = small container.
2h volume = 2t = medium container.
3h volume = 3t = big container.
4h volume = 4t = extra large container.
Some "items" may require a particular layout, i.e. replace "containers" with a certain volume requirement: I.e. mining equipment might have 2l x 3w x 4h storage requirement, and be easily transformed into 2x3x4 = 24t. Meaning you'd be forced to have a 4h (xl) cargo hold in order to transport mining equipment.

1l x 1w x 1h = 1t = maximum usage for lightest possible cargo. Transporting gold (heavy) would mean you can't utilize the cargo container fully. It's about "the containers ability to withstand forces" if you need an abstraction explaining it :)

It's not ideal, but I don't think it's really necessary to add too much complexity to the system.
 
Standard cargo hold racking to take standard sized loads (like pallets in a warehouse) and then you have to pay for sliding racking or even a completely different set up to carry odd sized loads.

So a staock ship could carry anything that would fit the racking, one with modified sliding racking could carry items twice as wide or four times as tall for instance, but if you want to deliver flat pack dwellings or farm tractors or drilling rigs to a new colony you have to remove the racking (Or slide it back against the wall?) and use tie downs on the floors?



Or I can see a bigger ships could have one big cargo hold that could have slide out floors to give it several levels for odd shaped loads, with brackets in the floor that cargo pods could snap into for the more uniform sized stuff, again pallets spring to mind.

Maybe you could even have a loading hatch top and bottom for bulk carrying grain or similar without any packaging at all.

I suppose having worked around trucks and warehouses for most of my life i see things I'd like in game that would make players have to choose cargos more carefully so as to add interest to buying and selling.
 
Sorry for my bad English,
I think different container sizes makes in unnassasary difficult.
Wouldnt it be easier to work with units ?
Small ship cargo for example 5 units, big 100.
A unit of Water has 1 tonn, iron 20.
For mining equipment u need a space for 10 units with a realistic weight.
The mass should infect the flying charakteristics.
 
I don't believe it's too difficult. Don't worry about the abstraction, it's only to help explain how things work. The method is pretty much identical to what exist in X games - certain ship size required for certain container classes. To me it wouldn't make sense to carry 20 tons of mining equipment in a small fighter that can carry 30 tons total - the parts would simply be too big to fit.
 
I recall this matter being discussed on the DDF. Can't recall the thread though.

Anyway, despite being possible a few standard sizes (3, 4 at most), lets not make ED a space freight simulator, so only one dimension should matter (volume or mass) and all the cargo placement to be done automatically and instantaneously.
 
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