commodities and cargo holds...one size fits all?

[Sagan Ross]

In a lot of the old RPG's you had an inventory grid showing how many items you could carry and also a weight allowance that showed how heavy a load you could carry before getting encumbered.

Couldn't we just have a grid showing the size cargo space where you place commodities into and a simple gage shows the Mass/Thrust ratio (that will perhaps turn red when you have reached the limit where you ship can no longer take off from a planet/moon with its current mass).

 

[tooterfish]

Ship interiors aren't abstract though, they're fully modelled as part of the damage system (and in preparation for the walking about expansion). You can see this in the Cobra Teaser.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xg9k7E4ngFw

1t refers to a standard sized cargo container, there's no need to overthink it. As people have pointed out, we already use similar systems for freight... because it just works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_container

 

[Doctor_Demento]

OK I like real to a point. But this is a game and we are here to have fun, not create a second job for us that we don't get paid for, LOL. OK that said.
Standard size containers like the pic given in the post above (from Cassius) are good and they look nice. Each container is limited to a maximum weight it can contain. This makes packing the containers in the ship easy and standard. Each ship is rated by several factors including engine at to how much weight it can carry. In space weight is still very relevant. In space weight=mass. And mass directly relates to how the ship accelerates, turn, handles, etc. I've seen some nice ideas but in the end, how do you want to play the game?

 

[Karl]

Ship interiors aren't abstract though, they're fully modelled as part of the damage system (and in preparation for the walking about expansion).

Although I hate to admit it, that's a good point I think it could be overcome on a coding point of view, but might not be worth it? Depends on if the devs wants to put in artificial (yet logical) restrictions on what can be carried. In X3 terms, if I was denied carrying (XL) ore because I need a permit, it wouldn't make sense as ore is harmless. Needing an XL capable ship does make sense, removing the "what the hell" outburst.

Algorithms exist for efficient packing (with a lot more parameters to worry about than we have), could be adapted to suit the game, and fully automatic. Not trying to "make it difficult"

lets not make ED a space freight simulator"

I though trading was an essential route in the game. Finally getting a ship that can load L or XL cargo (like in X3) might be something to strive for as a trader. Maybe the traders wants additional depth to their trading as you want to your fighting? Other than the "this isn't abstract" argument, it's a very basic way to add depth, and depth is something I cherish deeply in games - typically going away with games nowadays.

X3 had cargo size classes as the main mean of dividing, then special TL ships for getting complexes modules placed. I've done my "construction yard work", and sometimes you just need the big boys to do the freighting.

Panther Clipper will be about the biggest playable freighter in the game, right? Iirc there were even larger "super freighters" in FE2, so I don't think a Panther should be compared to a massive container ship.

That said, I'm pretty sure the devs have already set their path on where they want to go with this, so all discussion are just personal desires.

 

[popuptoaster]

Thats more or less what i was gunning for, there could be better reasons for having a big ship than just the sheer amount of cargo you can carry, it could tie in with interesting missions as well.

So you choose to stay in a Cobra because it's fast and maneuverable? that's good, but you can't fit large cargo items in there even if you have the weight allowance, they just wont go through the doors. but you can run high value items to dangerous systems.

You have a Panther Clipper? it can carry large industrial equipment, or terraforming gear or colony buildings packed down flat, please deliver them to these newly colonised worlds, we don't know what you may encounter in this little explored system.


I don't think cargo management would be boring as a trader, it would add another variable to the game, it could still be autoloaded but would be nice to see restrictions on sizes or special equipment required to carry certain items.

If you want boring hows this?

Dock ship, refuel ship, find cheapest cargo, buy maximum carrying capacity, look at map, find best price for cargo, plot course, lift off, fly to destination, sell cargo, repeat until your brain explodes or you become rich.

 

[Memnoch]

If you want boring hows this?

Dock ship, refuel ship, find cheapest cargo, buy maximum carrying capacity, look at map, find best price for cargo, plot course, lift off, fly to destination, sell cargo, repeat until your brain explodes or you become rich.

I hate to tell you this but you just described Elite.

 

[Ref Minor]

Clearly we need a Tetris like mini-game to fill up your ship, the better you do, the more you can fit in

 

[SnowGhost]

I agree with the KISS principal in this regard. One standard size container. Don't call it a 1 one ton container. Call it one unit.

With todays shipping there are bulk commodity ships (Think iron ore or wheat) and container ships. With 20 & 40' containers you can fit X cubic meters of stuff in there, but there is also a weight limit. So you can only fit .1 of X cubic meters of gold in there, otherwise the dock cranes can't lift it, trucks can't carry it and roads aren't capable of bearing the load. If you want to carry pillows, then you can fill a 40' container full.

In either case, in the game you can carry one unit of gold or one unit of pillows in one cargo canister. As a player and pilot we don't need to know more than that.

There is going to be enough going on in the game as it is, without the need to add extra layers of complexity just because you can.

 

[popuptoaster]

I hate to tell you this but you just described Elite.

I know, I played the original, this is why i am always after added extras that can expand the game experience.

For those that don't care you just load your ship with whatever will fit a stock hold, but for those that DO care there could be ship equipment available for odd cargo carrying.

maybe you want to deliver live giant squid from earth to mars? Or ice cream sundaes? Or genuine hawaian volcanic lava, still hot from the bowels of the earth?

Or any of a million other things that could require specialist haulage, there are numerous specialist haulage companies on earth today, i used to work for a heavy haulage company shifting 200ton loads around Britain, I just think more variety can't hurt.

 

[Chock]

I hate to tell you this but you just described Elite.

Yup that is true, and it is exactly why ED needs to expand on this, which as we know, it will be doing.

But it's worth bearing in mind that with the game still having the rating system, with everyone aiming for elite status, and the fact that you can become elite by simply trading as opposed to merely going around blowing other ships up, then their needs to be some criteria for what makes a hauling pilot elite. Should it just be because you've done a lot of it? Or should there be some other reason why a space trucker becomes elite?

The game could easily track your average percentage profit for your cargo runs, which might be one way to do it, but what if there was another way? For example, what if you'd managed to squeeze in more cargo somehow to up that average by doing what many did in Frontier when they started out, i.e. ripping out the scanner and the atmospheric shielding in order to up the cargo capacity. Or what if you managed to fly your ship when overloaded and landed it safely on a planetary landing pad through pure gutsy piloting skill? Then you'd really know who was an elite cargo pilot in the same way that you'd know who was an elite fighter pilot, since they too would presumably have gained that status through piloting and gunnery skills.

The fact that more systems are going to be simulated on the ships in ED will presumably allow for this kind of thing to be worked into the game, either by design or just by dint of what it is possible to do. I suspect it would not be hard to have an option when docked for either the choice of simple autoloading for those who are not interested in that aspect, or the option of manually supervising the loading which might let you squeeze in some more containers or possibly simply arrange them in a fashion where it gave your ship better or worse balance characteristics when flying in an atmosphere. This could even be a sort of game within the game.

If anyone ever played the FS add-on game Air Hauler (which is great fun incidentally), they will know that you can do that sort of thing in that with the fuel to cargo ratios, and it can make it a bit more fun when balancing risk against profit. Similarly, one can also chance flying big aircraft onto small runways and indeed take off from them to add a bit more spice to the route to profit. These are the kind of things which could be added into ED which would show who was really an elite space trucker.

 

[Pyros]

I though trading was an essential route in the game. Finally getting a ship that can load L or XL cargo (like in X3) might be something to strive for as a trader. Maybe the traders wants additional depth to their trading as you want to your fighting? Other than the "this isn't abstract" argument, it's a very basic way to add depth, and depth is something I cherish deeply in games - typically going away with games nowadays.

X3 had cargo size classes as the main mean of dividing, then special TL ships for getting complexes modules placed. I've done my "construction yard work", and sometimes you just need the big boys to do the freighting.
...
That said, I'm pretty sure the devs have already set their path on where they want to go with this, so all discussion are just personal desires.

It is [trading is, not quite an essential, but a cardinal route in the game]. That means that, like other aspects of the game, has to be somewhat complex, not complicated.

So, the player should have choices to make in terms of what products to buy and balance risk vs reward regarding where he chooses to trade. Not where he chooses to place that container inside his ship in order to ensure it is balanced.

Spending his time pondering whether he should exchange his ship for a "fatter" higher capacity one, or it would be better to use a more agile ship and trade in more risky/higher margin areas. Not spending his time rearranging the cargo hold or juggling container sizes - that is not fun, but a chore.

P.S. Do not presume my favored activities

 

[SlimExpert]

I like the KISS approach, in real world we do have the 20' / 40' containers. I like the idea that small ships would not fit big equipment - like mining equipment or passenger cabins.

Just two sizes sound good to me, if you get a bigger ship say >=80t capacity, then you can carry the bigger items.

Also, as a dynamic to the economics, buying in bulk, should be cheaper. So a large container of something, vs a small one, should be a few % cheaper.

SlimExpert