General Comprehensive list of needed changes to Powerplay activities to respect player time, effort and risk doing it

[Insane4un]

Dead on Arrival update ahh moment. Please, you have a Powerplay to save! There is still time.

Here are advices on what you can do about some of those activities and I'd recommend to pay attention to Rare trading and PP commodity especially:

Please be aware that these numbers are needed to give you some idea about how poorly these activities were balanced.

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[Bounty Hunting]
---------------------

[Problem]:

Depends strongly on the system type it's state and installations in the system. Merits gain doesn't reflect the time and effort we're putting in, if we compare it to other activities.

[Solution]:

First we go with easy to implement solution just in case if it's too hard to code:

Increase payouts by 30% across the board.

Now, let's assume that you can do the following:

Increase payouts by 30% across the board.
Increase payouts by 25% for killing WANTED ships with tag Mission Target
Increase payouts by 700% if the killed criminal was a player from other enemy power.

Add new additional context activity "Interdictions": to create an incentive for player to use interdictors.

Let's assume that base payout is 25

Increase payouts for Interdictions by additional 500% if you have followed high wake of criminal into another system.

Increase payouts for interdiction of players of enemy factions by additional 500%

If a player was interdicted and then he high wakes into another system, you'll get 125 merits for interdiction + 125 merits for following him to next system and + 125 merits for interdicting him again. That will create incentive to use Wake Scanners and even PvE players can farm merits by making life of PvP players harder.

Bonus: add new combined module that have both Wake Scanner and Kill Warrant Scanner available to player.

NOTE: Make sure that you won't be able to get merits again and again by interdicting the same player in the same system. One interdiction per system per one player.

[Reasoning]:

Right now payouts doesn't reflect the time and effort we're putting in if we compare it to other activities. Missions doesn't give you additional benefit and they should, because we're hunting more dangerous criminals on higher rank missions and the merit gain never reflects that. We also have no incentive to hunt criminals in supercruise, and no incentive to use Wake Scanners at all. There is also no bonuses for killing enemy power player which defeats the entire concept of... you know... powerplay. Make those activities viable and rewarding. Even just attacking another player should be rewarding as player wasting time while attacking other players and not killing NPC. Stop wasting our time like that.

---------------------
[Rare Trading]
---------------------

[Problem]:

There is no balance because of Fleet Carrier abuse and very small timer on rare spawns. We can abuse it by hoarding thousands of rares on Fleet Carrier.

While you essentially killed this activity for a moment, you will need to return it later, so here we are.

[Solution]:

There are no hardcore changes, this one will be very easy for you to fix right away. Why are we even struggling?

We'll use the code that you have already implemented with PP commodity.
PP commodity is locked from Fleet Carrier abuse. Just apply the same policy to Rares. There you have it - problem is completely solved in one click.

As additional measure I would advice you to increase the timer for rare spawns by 30 minutes and keep payouts as they were before you disabled rares, to create incentive to use rares for very specific system that is much harder to defend without rares.

Easy.

[Reasoning]:

Extremely powerful activity which can target very specific system of any kind: acquisition, exploited, fortified, stronghold. By limiting it's spawn rate to 30 min, we'll have to rely on using multiple systems to get as many rares as possible. This is much harder than hoarding them on Fleet Carrier while sitting in one system. And by keeping the payouts the same as they were before, we can keep this activity for when we really need it to protect systems.

---------------------
[Power Kill]
---------------------

First we go with easy to implement solution just in case if it's too hard to code:

Increase payouts by 50% across the board.

Now, let's assume that you can do the following:

Increase payouts by 50% across the board.
Increase payouts by 25% for killing enemy power WANTED ships
Increase payouts by 700% if the killed ship was a player from other enemy power.

Apply all affects from Bounty Hunting to this activity.

Add new additional player driven context activity "Damage to power operatives" which will activates when you attack another player from enemy faction for the first time. One attack per one ship in the same system.

Add new additional context activity "Interdictions": to create an incentive for player to use interdictors against power ships.

Let's assume that base payout is 25

Increase payouts for Interdictions by additional 500% if you have followed high wake of power ship into another system.

Increase payouts for interdiction of players of enemy factions by additional 500%

If a player was interdicted and then he high wakes into another system, you'll get 125 merits for interdiction + 125 merits for following him to next system and + 125 merits for interdicting him again. That will create incentive to use Wake Scanners and even PvE players can farm merits by making life of PvP players harder.

NOTE: Make sure that you won't be able to get merits again and again by interdicting the same player in the same system. One interdiction per system per one player.

---------------------
[Power Commodity]
---------------------

[Problem]:

Of all things.. this should give us the most reliable way to gather merits, to reinforce systems and to undermine enemy. After all, you did so much for this thing. You even locked it from hoarding it on Fleet Carriers and limited it's numbers to rank and 30 min timer. So much effort was put into... the most useless activity in the PP 2.0.

[Solution]:

Very easy to fix

Increase payouts by 105%

Give us additional bonus for how much we can bring with one trip

100T +15% additional payout
200T +15% additional payout
300T +15% additional payout
400T +15% additional payout
500T +15% additional payout
600T +15% additional payout
700T +15% additional payout

[Reasoning]:

Right now it's the most sad activity as it's an absolute waste of time to do. I understand your intentions with this activity, so this balance reflects your design philosophy. This activity should've been the most reliable way to reinforce and undermine systems without rares. Especially considering that you can't hoard PP commodity on a Fleet Carrier and have a limit of stock for 30 min.

-------------------------------
[Commiting Crime]
-------------------------------

[Problem]:

The most unrewarding and absolutely stupid activity in PP 2.0 that makes no sense. It requires from player to risk his comfort and wanted status for absolutely nothing in return.

[Solution]:

Increase payouts by 50% across the board
Increase payout by additional 10% with each new rank of notoriety
Increase payouts by additional 25% for killing ships of authority
Increase payouts by additional 25% for killing ships with tag Mission Target

Add additional activity with need to use Hatch Breaker limpet controller to reward piracy of power ships.

Make the stolen cargo from power ships tradable for merits on black market.

Using Hatch Breaker limpet should be rewarded by merits in the same way as Wake Scanner.

[Reasoning]:

This activity is absolutely undercooked. It only punishing player, and not rewarding him for risk he is taking. This activity by design supposed to be "High Risk - High Reward" deal. What we got is more in line with wasting our time. Stop wasting our time like that.

I think for starters, that will be enough. Thank you for the update. The numbers should give you some idea about how poorly these activities were balanced.

 

[jacklul]

Buff the weeklies - the payouts needs to be way bigger - there is no incentive to do them at all currently.
Perhaps adding "streak bonus" if you keep completing them each week would also help.
Of course you need to fix the bugged missions first so they can be completed.

Another thing that would be great: REROLL mission option!

You got a bugged mission? REROLL
You're playing lawful character and mission requires you to do nasty stuff? REROLL
Mission is too hard? REROLL

 

[Rubbernuke]

Oh well FDev.. you did it again. Dead on Arrival update ahh moment. Please, wake up FDev, you have a Powerplay to save! There is still time.

Here is your comprehensive guide on what you can do about some of those activities and I'd recommend to pay attention to Rare trading and PP commodity especially:

---------------------
[Bounty Hunting]
---------------------

[Problem]:

Depends strongly on the system type it's state and installations in the system. Merits gain doesn't reflect the time and effort we're putting in, if we compare it to other activities.

[Solution]:

First we go with easy to implement solution if you can't implement anything else because it's "too hard to code" ahh moment:

Increase payouts by 30% across the board.

Now, let's assume that you can do the following:

Increase payouts by 30% across the board.
Increase payouts by 25% for killing WANTED ships with tag Mission Target
Increase payouts by 700% if the killed criminal was a player from other enemy power.

Add new additional context activity "Interdictions": to create an incentive for player to use interdictors.

Let's assume that base payout is 25

Increase payouts for Interdictions by additional 500% if you have followed high wake of criminal into another system.

Increase payouts for interdiction of players of enemy factions by additional 500%

If a player was interdicted and then he high wakes into another system, you'll get 125 merits for interdiction + 125 merits for following him to next system and + 125 merits for interdicting him again. That will create incentive to use Wake Scanners and even PvE players can farm merits by making life of PvP players harder.

Bonus: add new combined module that have both Wake Scanner and Kill Warrant Scanner available to player.

NOTE: Make sure that you won't be able to get merits again and again by interdicting the same player in the same system. One interdiction per system per one player.

[Reasoning]:

Right now payouts doesn't reflect the time and effort we're putting in if we compare it to other activities. Missions doesn't give you additional benefit and they should, because we're hunting more dangerous criminals on higher rank missions and the merit gain never reflects that. We also have no incentive to hunt criminals in supercruise, and no incentive to use Wake Scanners at all. There is also no bonuses for killing enemy power player which defeats the entire concept of... you know... powerplay. Make those activities viable and rewarding. Even just attacking another player should be rewarding as player wasting time while attacking other players and not killing NPC. Stop wasting our time like that.

---------------------
[Rare Trading]
---------------------

[Problem]:

There is no balance because of Fleet Carrier abuse and very small timer on rare spawns. We can abuse it by hoarding thousands of rares on Fleet Carrier.

While you essentially killed this activity for a moment, you will need to return it later, so here we are.

[Solution]:

There are no hardcore changes, this one will be very easy for you to fix right away. Why are you even struggling?

We'll use the code that you have already implemented with PP commodity.
PP commodity is locked from Fleet Carrier abuse. Just apply the same policy to Rares. There you have it - problem is completely solved in one click.

As additional measure I would advice you to increase the timer for rare spawns by 30 minutes and keep payouts as they were before you disabled rares, to create incentive to use rares for very specific system that is much harder to defend without rares.

See? Easy.

[Reasoning]:

Extremely powerful activity which can target very specific system of any kind: acquisition, exploited, fortified, stronghold. By limiting it's spawn rate to 30 min, we'll have to rely on using multiple systems to get as many rares as possible. This is much harder than hoarding them on Fleet Carrier while sitting in one system. And by keeping the payouts the same as they were before, we can keep this activity for when we really need it to protect systems.

---------------------
[Power Kill]
---------------------

First we go with easy to implement solution if you can't implement anything else because it's "too hard to code" ahh moment:

Increase payouts by 50% across the board.

Now, let's assume that you can do the following:

Increase payouts by 50% across the board.
Increase payouts by 25% for killing enemy power WANTED ships
Increase payouts by 700% if the killed ship was a player from other enemy power.

Apply all affects from Bounty Hunting to this activity.

Add new additional player driven context activity "Damage to power operatives" which will activates when you attack another player from enemy faction for the first time. One attack per one ship in the same system.

Add new additional context activity "Interdictions": to create an incentive for player to use interdictors against power ships.

Let's assume that base payout is 25

Increase payouts for Interdictions by additional 500% if you have followed high wake of power ship into another system.

Increase payouts for interdiction of players of enemy factions by additional 500%

If a player was interdicted and then he high wakes into another system, you'll get 125 merits for interdiction + 125 merits for following him to next system and + 125 merits for interdicting him again. That will create incentive to use Wake Scanners and even PvE players can farm merits by making life of PvP players harder.

NOTE: Make sure that you won't be able to get merits again and again by interdicting the same player in the same system. One interdiction per system per one player.

---------------------
[Power Commodity]
---------------------

[Problem]:

Of all things.. this should give us the most reliable way to gather merits, to reinforce systems and to undermine enemy. After all, you did so much for this thing. You even locked it from hoarding it on Fleet Carriers and limited it's numbers to rank and 30 min timer. So much effort was put into... the most useless activity in the PP 2.0.

[Solution]:

Very easy to fix

Increase payouts by 105%

Give us additional bonus for how much we can bring with one trip

100T +15% additional payout
200T +15% additional payout
300T +15% additional payout
400T +15% additional payout
500T +15% additional payout
600T +15% additional payout
700T +15% additional payout

[Reasoning]:

Right now it's the most sad activity as it's an absolute waste of time to do. I understand your intentions with this activity, so this balance reflects your design philosophy. This activity should've been the most reliable way to reinforce and undermine systems without rares. Especially considering that you can't hoard PP commodity on a Fleet Carrier and have a limit of stock for 30 min.

-------------------------------
[Commiting Crime]
-------------------------------

[Problem]:

The most unrewarding and absolutely stupid activity in PP 2.0 that makes no sense. It requires from player to risk his comfort and wanted status for absolutely nothing in return.

[Solution]:

Increase payouts by 50% across the board
Increase payout by additional 10% with each new rank of notoriety
Increase payouts by additional 25% for killing ships of authority
Increase payouts by additional 25% for killing ships with tag Mission Target

Add additional activity with need to use Hatch Breaker limpet controller to reward piracy of power ships.

Make the stolen cargo from power ships tradable for merits on black market.

Using Hatch Breaker limpet should be rewarded by merits in the same way as Wake Scanner.

[Reasoning]:

This activity is absolutely undercooked. It only punishing player, and not rewarding him for risk he is taking. This activity by design supposed to be "High Risk - High Reward" deal. What we got is more in line with wasting our time. Stop wasting our time like that.

I think for starters, that will be enough. Thank you for trying. The numbers should give you some idea about how poorly these activities were balanced.

I like the idea of escalating reward based on notoriety, but even your numbers are far too low given the downsides of continual crime.

So I'd say each point is worth 50%, that way the most punished activity is the most rewarding if you do it a lot, something which needs to be encouraged in PP rather than easy legal ways.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

The main change that's needed is related to the unlocks.

Scale down all unique module/perk unlocks so the last one unlocks at level 30-40. The generic ones that apply to all powers dealing with rebuys can stay grindwalled.

The current vibe I get is that having the current grind for module unlocks won't keep players interested and playing for longer, it will make them quit instead, having the opposite effect on player retention.

Yeah you won't have anything for the last 60-70 levels if you do this, but that's something that you can write off as "it's just for prestige" even if you can't promise to come up with new (minor perk, not module unlock) rewards in the future.

Scaling up the merit gains also has the effect of making systems easier to flip, which is something that should be the case - with how hard it is currently it makes for too much sunk cost fallacy and avoids petty wars and could lead to a more static galaxy in the future.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Increase payouts by 25% for killing enemy power WANTED ships

This makes power kills 25% more effective in Reinforcement as compared with Undermining, for exactly the same kill otherwise. There are already too many incentives to Reinforce as opposed to Undermine.

Increase payouts by 700% if the killed ship was a player from other enemy power.

I like the idea in principle but I suspect this will just get exploited by
- pledge alt to enemy power
- put alt in Sidewinder
- shoot alt
- repeat

As we're seeing with data ports, escape pods and rares it is absolutely fatal if an activity has a "normal" way to do it, and a "niche" way to do it which is ten times quicker but clearly not how it's supposed to work.

Scaling up the merit gains also has the effect of making systems easier to flip, which is something that should be the case - with how hard it is currently it makes for too much sunk cost fallacy and avoids petty wars and could lead to a more static galaxy in the future.

At the moment the total aggregated merits per week are at a minimum about 5% of the total merit strength of the bubble and could easily be double that. That doesn't seem massively wrong as a target (and is already enough that in the event of a hypothetical perfect 11-way alliance, most choices for the 12th power could be destroyed entirely in a week)

Whether there's a static galaxy in the long term doesn't depend on how easy it is, it depends on how effective Reinforcement is relative to Undermining.
At the moment, it's generally easier and also generally higher paying to Reinforce, and it's that which is likely to lead to a mostly static galaxy once all the easy land grabs are done, whether it takes a million merits or ten thousand merits to reinforce a system.

 

[Dragsham]

I like the idea in principle but I suspect this will just get exploited by

• pledge alt to enemy power
• put alt in Sidewinder
• shoot alt
• repeat

This is correct, it's open to abuse, and they will abuse it.
but I like the Op's ideas!

 

[Rubbernuke]

I like the idea in principle but I suspect this will just get exploited by
- pledge alt to enemy power
- put alt in Sidewinder
- shoot alt
- repeat

It could be mitigated by the alts total merits made that week, plus the value of the ship- plus that you have to fly the ship out manually.

So, a bog standard alt dummy target would be worth no extra since it has made no merits and flies in a Sidewinder.

The core issue with PvP kills in PP2 is that since merits cannot be generally hoarded, killing rival combat players does not offer strategic gain since they lose nothing. Ironically this makes killing explorers and traders more important (because they can hoard merit bombs)- so double irony that maybe the levels for data and rares (are pre nerf) right if.....if its in Open.

Now if you will excuse me, I must now run away

/runs

 

[Ozric]

The incredibly condescending tone really helps get your point across...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

plus the value of the ship

With rebuys paid at mid ranks, a Cutter with an 8A fuel scoop should sort that one out while not being any harder to kill.

The core issue with PvP kills in PP2 is that since merits cannot be generally hoarded, killing rival combat players does not offer strategic gain since they lose nothing.

Indeed. And not just combat - killing someone on their way back from an Odyssey raid once they've banked the materials doesn't matter either.

makes killing explorers and traders more important

And explorers you can't really get that way unless they're being careless, since they can fly in with Apex to avoid loss-on-death if there's any chance of opposition.

It's the cargo-based options where it matters a bit more, and I'm not sure that PP2 generates enough bottlenecks for those to be very practical either.

 

[Rubbernuke]

With rebuys paid at mid ranks, a Cutter with an 8A fuel scoop should sort that one out while not being any harder to kill.

True- but at the same time an alt can't fake not making merits unless its playing the game for a rival, which undoes the exploit. Personally I'd like to see the rebuy perk only active if you are active above a threshold that week (but to compensate make it 100% instantly).

And explorers you can't really get that way unless they're being careless, since they can fly in with Apex to avoid loss-on-death if there's any chance of opposition.

It's the cargo-based options where it matters a bit more, and I'm not sure that PP2 generates enough bottlenecks for those to be very practical either.

True again- but also FD could make Apex reject pledges (simply as Apex would be then entering the conflict and be partisan) for that very purpose.

We will have to see what bottlenecks develop- its really dependent on long term defence of profitable / high profile systems that become forever wars to keep (such as core systems of powers).

 

[Nowski]

I like the idea of escalating reward based on notoriety, but even your numbers are far too low given the downsides of continual crime.

Tangential to the merits balance question, maybe excessive notoriety itself could be mitigated by allowing the fixers legal staff at stronghold carriers to bypass notoriety concerns (perhaps after some rank is attained) in 007-type "license to kill" fashion?

Increase payouts by 700% if the killed criminal was a player from other enemy power.

I've suggested this elsewhere (to almost zero response) and I remain convinced it's worth a go.

I like the idea in principle but I suspect this will just get exploited

Perhaps abuse could be mitigated somehow, for example by relocating the newly deceased party to a different system in order to rate-limit? Or better perhaps to ignore the abuse and hope it will be outweighed by the benefits of attending the needs of the skills-based PvP community? I think I prefer the latter approach.

 

[Gabriel H]

The incredibly condescending tone really helps get your point across...

Well, to be fair, the whole point of PP2.0 is to generate galaxy wide conflict due to the Thargoid threat being downgraded - FDev wanted a war, they appear to have succeeded.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

Whether there's a static galaxy in the long term doesn't depend on how easy it is, it depends on how effective Reinforcement is relative to Undermining.
At the moment, it's generally easier and also generally higher paying to Reinforce, and it's that which is likely to lead to a mostly static galaxy once all the easy land grabs are done, whether it takes a million merits or ten thousand merits to reinforce a system.

Yeah I wasn't looking at it from a numbers perspective, but from the angle that players could get too risk averse if the systems take a lot of effort to flip and losing one is a big deal. Reinforcing being easier than undermining means you don't have to worry about defending as much, which would mean more resources left over to go on the attack, but if undermining also pays off less then that might lead to over-reinforcing anyway.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Tangential to the merits balance question, maybe excessive notoriety itself could be mitigated by allowing the fixers legal staff at stronghold carriers to bypass notoriety concerns (perhaps after some rank is attained) in 007-type "license to kill" fashion?

It could- one idea that I had was for Archon Delaine wher instead of 100% bounty reduction but nullifies notoriety anywhere where a black market exists.

 

[serakfalcon]

I think this is completely the wrong approach. You are just doing the same thing Fdev did, putting arbitrary numbers down and hoping it will all work out. You also completely ignored exploration, exobiology, mining and a few other methods

There's a much simpler way to adjust things, which is, assume players should be getting merits by all activities relatively evenly, pick a baseline (say, expectation of 10k merits/hour) and then boost or nerf activities until the aggregate player hours and aggregate merits per activity matches the baseline for all activities. You can do this iteratively over time on a weekly basis and shift as the meta shifts. That way you don't need to know what are the niche methods or normal methods you don't care you're just adjusting to player activity.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

I like the idea in principle but I suspect this will just get exploited by

• pledge alt to enemy power
• put alt in Sidewinder
• shoot alt
• repeat

Probably missing the step where you level your alt to Elite V to get more merits. I remember that being a huge factor in CZ bonds awarded for player kills, but haven't tested merits.

I assume it's already another good way to cheese the system if you can get merits for killing pledged players in foot CZs with quick kills and respawns, but again haven't tested it.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

True- but at the same time an alt can't fake not making merits unless its playing the game for a rival, which undoes the exploit.

There are places where merits could be earned harmlessly - an Acquisition system that's not contestable and has already passed the threshold, an Undermining target which has already been beaten beyond any practical hope of recovery.

For cross-power allied player groups (bleh...) allowing you both to fortify your systems rapidly by swapping kills on each other (which gets you merits, which makes the next round of kills more effective, oh dear) would be a feature.

True again- but also FD could make Apex reject pledges (simply as Apex would be then entering the conflict and be partisan) for that very purpose.

That's a bit excessive, though, and probably just acts as a discouragement to pledging for part-timers to close down a very niche situation in practice (explorer returning to a system which actually contains a hostile player) - on the fluff side, if Frontline can be widely praised for transporting mercenaries for both sides into the same CZ, surely Apex can do the same.

but from the angle that players could get too risk averse if

I'm pretty sure there's nothing which can be done about that in general because that's how people generally play this game. Even if fortifying and undermining were precisely balanced in terms of incentives, difficulty, earning rates, etc. I expect fortifying would have at least a 3:1 lead. The design challenge is overcoming that tendency to make things more dynamic.
(Which doesn't have to be done through encouraging player undermining, though that's the simplest option in many respects)

That way you don't need to know what are the niche methods or normal methods you don't care you're just adjusting to player activity.

The problem with that is that it can lead to a horrible split in payoffs within an activity, if there's an outlier method which is massively more efficient.

Let's say they did this for escape pods rather than whatever they eventually do instead. If you're not too bothered about which system you undermine/fortify then anarchy tourist beacons can give hundreds of pods an hour. So that's the peak rate for that activity, align that to the target.

Now every other way of getting escape pods - including the ones people are "supposed" to do, including the ones which are more challenging - pays 100 merits an hour or something equally worthless.

It's basically the gold-rush credits problem all over again:
- optimised players make 500 million credits an hour from spire farming
- "normal" players make 50-100 million, which is good, but well within the ranges of a lot of activity types
- Frontier purely adjusts the payout so that the optimised players only make 200 million.
- "normal" players, of which there are considerably more, now only make 20 million, and they're the ones who then complain about it

But the game is big and complex enough that outliers are very hard to eliminate entirely and any change might introduce new ones or make them matter more. The "Anarchy Tourist Beacon" problem wasn't any sort of a balance problem a month ago, despite it being an equally quick way to obtain escape pods in bulk then.

 

[Dragsham]

cheese the system if you can get merits for killing pledged players in foot CZs

Just imagine the potential abuse this would get

 

[serakfalcon]

The problem with that is that it can lead to a horrible split in payoffs within an activity, if there's an outlier method which is massively more effefficient

As long as the outlier method exists, you have to pick to balance to the average and nerf 'normal' play or balance to the 'normal' and give people a broken activity that they'll start to spam. Without knowing what players are doing you can still detect that this exists if the player merits for that activity are lopsided compared to other activities, and the average and median aren't lining up. Ideally you'd want to find a way to nerf the outlier but in absence of that I don't think you can get away from balancing for the average, which now that I think about it is the dilemma Fdev is in right now

 

[Nowski]

swapping kills on each other (which gets you merits, which makes the next round of kills more effective, oh dear) would be a feature.

The problem with that is that it can lead to a horrible split in payoffs within an activity, if there's an outlier method which is massively more efficient.

The logic in both cases seems inescapable. FDev have previously said merit gain would be linear, I think. Would introducing a per-player, per-activity, per-cycle falloff (maybe kicking in at approaching-outlier levels) have any prospect of ameliorating the downside of these changes?