Control scheme questions

[jnTracks]

I've read some threads about the HOTAS HOSAS thing, and it doesn't seem to fully answer what I'm thinking about.

I'm new, (currently stick and keyboard) but right away I realized that I wanted a second stick for thrusters. But then the more I think about it, the more I think that would leave things still missing as I would have analog control of lat/vert thrust, but not forward/backward thrust.

Then as I'm reading discussions I see so much talk about how throttle is the way to go for this game, which I don't understand. Why is great throttle control so important when the maneuverability of the craft is maximized at 50%. It seems to me that you want 50% for turning, then zero, 50%, 75%, 100% for everything else. So it's my supposition that throttle control is easily handled with 4 keys/buttons and 10% increment buttons if you wanted to have them. Why would I need smooth throttle adjustment? If I have analog thruster control, wouldn't that be better for accomplishing the same goal? When I'm traveling I'm either at 100%, or 75% for approaching normal space, or 50% for being slower and turning. When in combat I'm always at 50% and using thrust to augment it, so still no need for a big throttle. Seems like other things like mining would also be best handled with thrusters, right? So there is no scenario where a throttle controller is important.
What am I missing about throttle?


But again, the dual stick doesn't give me analog forward/back thrusters, so I got thinking that I'd really like a throttle slider with detents (at least one detent at 50% or neutral) and a good analog thumb stick for the lat/vert thrusters. Then I map the throttle axis to forward/back thrusters, and lat/vert is the thumb on the same hand.
It seems like this would be my ultimate second hand. Does this exist? I see mention of throttles with analog sticks on them --even one person saying they all have sticks-- but I don't find many. Most have 8way hats but that's not analog, and the one I found that does have a stick is the Thrustmaster T16000 throttle. but that puts the analog stick on the index finger instead of the thumb. X52 has that pointer analog stick at the thumb, but from reviews I get the impression that the computer sees this as a mouse, not an analog stick.

Does this thing I'm wanting exist? A throttle with a center detent and analog stick on the thumb? Am I missing something about control in this game?

 

[777Driver]

Why is great throttle control so important when the maneuverability of the craft is maximized at 50%.

Once you actually start flying you will realize that sitting at 50% throttle is not the optimum way to control speed/thrust, and assist off is a whole different level. Too much to go into right now, I'd suggest researching the matter, stay away from steam forums if that is where you are getting your info from, or check out the newcommer forum so you can to grips with the basics. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php/75-Newcomers-Forum


Anyway, to sum up, here's a quote of mine and quote from the devs from a few years back during a similar discussion.

777
We have an indicator - Full ENG pips displays 10 bars for the blue zone on the speed gauge, you fly the ship within the 5th bar for optimum turn rate. 2 pips you have 6 Bars, fly the ship dead center between those 6 bars, 0 pips in engines you have 3 bars. Once you are used to your ship you can fly it on numbers and feel.

FA-OFF works the same as FA-ON, the Blue zone bars are there, it is based on total velocity not just forward velocity. Again you can fly it on numbers if you are used to your ship.


Mike Evans
it's your actual speed at the time that matters, not what speed you asked for so when you start turning you're not going to be at 50% speed anymore. A player with direct throttle control can compensate for this by adjusting their throttle to remain at 50% actual speed.

 

[jnTracks]

Once you actually start flying you will realize that sitting at 50% throttle is not the optimum way to control speed/thrust, and assist off is a whole different level. Too much to go into right now, I'd suggest researching the matter, stay away from steam forums if that is where you are getting your info from, or check out the newcommer forum so you can to grips with the basics. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumdisplay.php/75-Newcomers-Forum


Anyway, to sum up, here's a quote of mine and quote from the devs from a few years back during a similar discussion.

777
We have an indicator - Full ENG pips displays 10 bars for the blue zone on the speed gauge, you fly the ship within the 5th bar for optimum turn rate. 2 pips you have 6 Bars, fly the ship dead center between those 6 bars, 0 pips in engines you have 3 bars. Once you are used to your ship you can fly it on numbers and feel.

FA-OFF works the same as FA-ON, the Blue zone bars are there, it is based on total velocity not just forward velocity. Again you can fly it on numbers if you are used to your ship.


Mike Evans
it's your actual speed at the time that matters, not what speed you asked for so when you start turning you're not going to be at 50% speed anymore. A player with direct throttle control can compensate for this by adjusting their throttle to remain at 50% actual speed.

Thanks, ok, that’s very explanatory about active throttle use; I’ll be actively compensating for my thruster work to maintain optimum turn speed.

So that leaves me still wanting throttle with an analog stick onboard, especially since I’ll want to balance the velocity of directional thrust with throttle compensation, so I want analog control.
What throttle will give me this?

Now I’m again looking at the thrustmaster t16000 throttle with its front paddle axis which I could map to forward/back thrust, leave throttle on the actual throttle slider, and vert/lat on its analog stick... but I’m bugged by the stick being on index finger instead of thumb. Is there a better throttle with a thumb stick?

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

The thrustmaster TWCS is really good for the game, but I do get the question, the throttle part of it does seem redundant at times, but it really does feel more immersive. It actually has an analogue stick at the front of it as well. Having gotten used to it, I think I'd struggle to go back to flight stick only.

The one thing I find lacking is the central indent for the throttle.

 

[leeG]

I use dual T.16000 sticks. Left stick fore-aft, up-down and lateral thrust. Right stick pitch, roll and yaw.

I use the throttle slider on the left stick set a forward thrust level, then use the left stick to add or subtract required three axis maneuvering thrust around that set point. For example, when performing heavy maneuvering the throttle is set mid-blue. Super crusing to a destination throttle is set to 100%. Landing or leaving a pad throttle is zero.

 

[jnTracks]

I use dual T.16000 sticks. Left stick fore-aft, up-down and lateral thrust. Right stick pitch, roll and yaw.

I use the throttle slider on the left stick set a forward thrust level, then use the left stick to add or subtract required three axis maneuvering thrust around that set point. For example, when performing heavy maneuvering the throttle is set mid-blue. Super crusing to a destination throttle is set to 100%. Landing or leaving a pad throttle is zero.

So you’re saying that your left stick is all six directions of thrust, but how do you arrange that? Which axis is what?

Looked a little more and I see that the CH throttle has what looks like a mini stick on the thumb, but in descriptions this isn’t mentioned as an analog stick so maybe it’s just another hat?

 

[jnTracks]

Edit, the CH throttle is still short 1 axis for what I’m talking about even if that is a mini stick, so that doesn’t justify the cost.

So I can find:
Thrustmaster TWCS which has a mini stick that’s placed wrong, but a paddle axis that could be fore/aft.
Or a few of the Saitek ones like x52 have that curser joystick thing. But does that map in game like a joystick? Or will it not work for dual axis thrusters? And is there another analog axis on that for the fore/aft?

Ahhhhhh! I’m so lost in this...

 

[60mm]

Here's how I handle things, hope it helps.

• Right Stick - Pitch/Yaw
• Left Stick - Lateral/Forward-Backward with Vertical on hat. Another hat on Left Stick sets Throttle to -100%, 0%, 50%, 100%. Note that the Forward/Backward axis still works, setting the Throttle with the hat changes what the Stick is centered at. I find analog control of Vertical Thrusters less important than the others, and having the Left Stick control Lateral/Forward-Backward feels very intuitive, especially for landing.
  
  You could use a Twist Axis for Vertical, but I find the degradation of accuracy and wrist wear/tear not worth it. Also haven't used a Twist Stick I didn't wear out in a few months.
• Pedals - Roll. You could use the Toe Brake function for Vertical, ideally, if your Chair/Desk/etc. allows for this. Sadly mine doesn't currently.
• Thruster(Optional) - Nice to have for Supercruise, but not necessary. You can snag used X52 Throttles for $40-$50.

 

[Whiterose]

I use a Saitek X52, and the mouse, and the keyboard. I guess I am just greedy...

 

[Morbad]

Why is great throttle control so important when the maneuverability of the craft is maximized at 50%. It seems to me that you want 50% for turning, then zero, 50%, 75%, 100% for everything else.

Optimal rotational rates are achieved at 50% of maximum current non-boost absolute velocity, not 50% throttle setting. 50% throttle, tries to get the ship to that 50% velocity, but maneuvering and changing directions will cause it to frequently fail to do so without manual compensation.

Also, sometimes your relative velocity is more important than achieving peak rotational performance, especially for tasks like controlling distance to target.

So that leaves me still wanting throttle with an analog stick onboard, especially since I’ll want to balance the velocity of directional thrust with throttle compensation, so I want analog control.
What throttle will give me this?

Now I’m again looking at the thrustmaster t16000 throttle with its front paddle axis which I could map to forward/back thrust, leave throttle on the actual throttle slider, and vert/lat on its analog stick... but I’m bugged by the stick being on index finger instead of thumb. Is there a better throttle with a thumb stick?

CH ProThrottle and the Logitech X56 have analog thumbsticks.

Some higher end stuff from VKB and VirPil also have analog ministicks, but not on the throttles, yet.

Looked a little more and I see that the CH throttle has what looks like a mini stick on the thumb, but in descriptions this isn’t mentioned as an analog stick so maybe it’s just another hat?

It's a two axis 8-bit analog mini-stick.

[video=youtube;xZTfZxJ98pU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=62&v=xZTfZxJ98pU[/video]

Edit, the CH throttle is still short 1 axis for what I’m talking about even if that is a mini stick, so that doesn’t justify the cost.

So I can find:
Thrustmaster TWCS which has a mini stick that’s placed wrong, but a paddle axis that could be fore/aft.
Or a few of the Saitek ones like x52 have that curser joystick thing. But does that map in game like a joystick? Or will it not work for dual axis thrusters? And is there another analog axis on that for the fore/aft?

Ahhhhhh! I’m so lost in this...

If you want enough axes, with a thumb stick and a throttle, without having to use pedals, the Logitech X56 (which has two mini-sticks at the thumb positions) is really the only option currently.

 

[Enride]

There are plenty of times when you will want to handle the ships speed outside of the optimal turn radius, docking and mining for instance. Most throttles also offer a lot more buttons and controls then most sticks do, giving you options to just about every function you will usually need during flight.

I have the T16000 stick and throttle right now and for the money its actually a fantastic setup! But ill probably swap it out for one of the newer X56 this christmas, the X56 has more inputs and better layout for how I want the controls set up.

 

[leeG]

So you’re saying that your left stick is all six directions of thrust, but how do you arrange that? Which axis is what?

See this post: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...our-throttle?p=6325688&viewfull=1#post6325688

 

[dfgqsb]

Probably not what you asked for but a keypad like Logitech G13 works perfectly for me. An analog stick for thumb and tons of keys.

And I don't think a throttle is the way to go, at least not for combat, since FAOFF is better with thruster control.
And pls forget about "throttle at blue zone" or "velocity at blue zone" if you no longer want to be a beginner. Positioning your ship correctly is more important than pointing at your target all the time, and you need to go faster or slower than the blue zone to achieve that, a lot.

 

[jnTracks]

See this post: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...our-throttle?p=6325688&viewfull=1#post6325688

But you don't have up/down thrust on that stick. That's my question. You said you had all 6 thrust directions, but you're missing up/down, which I use constantly in combat.

 

[jnTracks]

Probably not what you asked for but a keypad like Logitech G13 works perfectly for me. An analog stick for thumb and tons of keys.

And I don't think a throttle is the way to go, at least not for combat, since FAOFF is better with thruster control.
And pls forget about "throttle at blue zone" or "velocity at blue zone" if you no longer want to be a beginner. Positioning your ship correctly is more important than pointing at your target all the time, and you need to go faster or slower than the blue zone to achieve that, a lot.

Yeah, I like that thumb stick, but again it's still short 1 axis. What I want is a stick with lat/vert on it, and then another simultaneously accessible axis for forward/back.
I think I'm going to try the Thrustmaster TWCS (throttle from the T16000) which has a stick and another axis on a rocker. The stick is on a finger, not thumb, which is a bummer, but at least the axis on the rocker paddles can be mapped to forward/back. Hopefully it will work out.
It also gives me a throttle. While I see the argument for and against needing one; this seems to be the only controller part that actually has 6 axis, so I'll find out if I use the throttle!

 

[dfgqsb]

Yeah, I like that thumb stick, but again it's still short 1 axis. What I want is a stick with lat/vert on it, and then another simultaneously accessible axis for forward/back.
I think I'm going to try the Thrustmaster TWCS (throttle from the T16000) which has a stick and another axis on a rocker. The stick is on a finger, not thumb, which is a bummer, but at least the axis on the rocker paddles can be mapped to forward/back. Hopefully it will work out.
It also gives me a throttle. While I see the argument for and against needing one; this seems to be the only controller part that actually has 6 axis, so I'll find out if I use the throttle!

X56 throttle maybe? It has 2 hats and 1 analog stick for your thumb, but no detent.

 

[jnTracks]

X56 throttle maybe? It has 2 hats and 1 analog stick for your thumb, but no detent.

Yeah, that would probably be the ideal. with being able to map one of the throttles to throttle and the other to forward/back thrust (which I'm assuming I could do). Not sure if that would stay comfortable though. And the price tag! Plus, can't be split from the stick, since I already have a stick I'm happy with (for now). Maybe that's a some day purchase.

Maybe it would be a mode change. Leave the throttle pieces locked, but have a toggle that flipped between thrusters only mode for combat (where lat/vert is the stick and fore/aft is the throttle), and throttle mode where throttle is mapped to throttle.

 

[dfgqsb]

Yeah, that would probably be the ideal. with being able to map one of the throttles to throttle and the other to forward/back thrust (which I'm assuming I could do). Not sure if that would stay comfortable though. And the price tag! Plus, can't be split from the stick, since I already have a stick I'm happy with (for now). Maybe that's a some day purchase.

Maybe it would be a mode change. Leave the throttle pieces locked, but have a toggle that flipped between thrusters only mode for combat (where lat/vert is the stick and fore/aft is the throttle), and throttle mode where throttle is mapped to throttle.

I got mine from ebay and it's refurbished, seems like the only way to get the throttle without the stick, but you know the risk... it's refurbished, without official warranty, so not recommended at all.

Currently, my solution is hotas for supercruise, g13+mouse for normal space, so kind of like what you suggested...... kind of?[noob]

 

[leeG]

But you don't have up/down thrust on that stick. That's my question. You said you had all 6 thrust directions, but you're missing up/down, which I use constantly in combat.

Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Vertical thrust is on the left stick’s twist axis. The T.16000 is a three axis stick. For vertical thrust I twist the stick clockwise for up thrust and counterclockwise for down thrust.

 

[jnTracks]

Oh man, so now that I realized the dual throttle with a thumb stick could be split between throttle and fore/aft, it’s all I can think about.
Was about to pull the trigger on the thrustmaster twcs, but now I think I have to have the x56.
And they can be found separate from the stick eBay but it’s still pretty expensive. May as well get the real thing.
I’m a grown up, I can get nice things if I want, eh? Hmmm