Controlled System Reclamation Project

[XenosAurion]

Recently, Fdev updated the difficulty of Alert and Controlled systems to be a bit easier. We at Reforge Aegis experimented with a recommended Controlled system, Hyades Sector IM-L b8-5 of Taranis Maelstrom.

At first we tried combat. The Scout farming method we'd done a few months ago showed no progress. Almost 900 kills and nothing to see. We moved on to focusing Interceptors, primarily Cyclops and Basilisks. 20 kills gave us 5 chevrons of progress, not bad if we could get more people to help garner kills. Sometimes we went solo, but most often we worked in teams of 2, 3, and 4.

Then, we tried research limpets and tissue sampling. CMDR Yttrbio gave us the idea and we ran with it, as he has been elbow deep in experimenting with this method in Alert and Invasion systems. 126 various samples gave us 9 chevrons, an hour and a half's worth of work. We continued this at a comfortable pace for the next few days, a couple hours at a time in teams and solo, and eventually conquered the system. This winning strategy has been found by others to be equally successful in Alert and Invasion systems. (See here for more details)

There are a few methods we found success for sampling: solo cold orbit, solo shield tank, and a team with at least one of each.

I fly a Krait Mk II. It runs cold and fast. I orbit around any interceptor that isn't a Basilisk and hope the limpet comes back with something, up to 32 limpets per run. It ain't much, but it's honest work. No way to avoid Scout harassment, but they aren't usually too bad. If things get too hot, I can boost away and repair for a bit before returning.

CMDR Yttrbio used a prismatic shield tank Cutter with a universal limpet controller and can tank Cyclops and Basilisks long enough to get over double what I can accomplish in my Krait. In an hour, he can gather over a hundred samples in one or two runs.

But together, we form the ultimate team. The cold orbiter keeps the interceptor occupied while the shield tank absorbs all the Scout attention and damage. The interceptor rarely leaves the Cutter's range and can easily be reapproached while the Krait can fly around in a circle until they both run out of limpets or patience. We harvested over 200 samples in a couple hours, which rewarded us with 25 chevrons! I recommend harvesting tissue samples with this method, but it's okay to do things solo as well. Much can be accomplished with dedicated effort!

Important things to note:
Stronger interceptor variants contribute more than their weaker variants. 10 Cyclops tissue samples do not equal 10 Hydra tissue samples.
If you have samples from another system, like from the Pleiades, and you combine them with one or more from the target system, the stack will not change so that all samples are flagged as coming from the target system despite becoming one stack. The game knows which ones came from where and will only count the ones from the target system.
Unpopulated systems are easier than formerly-populated systems.
The farther away a system is from a Maelstrom, the easier it is to take it.

Thirsty for more, I find there is no shortage of Controlled systems. So, I come here not only to share our findings, tactics, and strategies, but to ask if there is anywhere in particular people would like us to go? I would prefer Controlled systems around Indra or Taranis, but I can be flexible. The less the Thargoids own, the less they can expand further outward as they have to redirect inward and restart progress all over again.

There's just something about them I like, a certain je ne sais quoi. Maybe it's the eerie quiet or knowing I am prepared for the danger lurking in the shadow of witchspace.

And it's not much, but I made a video to better illustrate how I cold orbit an interceptor and gather samples. I would have a video of teamwork with CMDR Yttrbio, but none of the footage saved due to a technical snafu. If you have any questions or recommendations, please let me know! I want to help as much as I can now that we are able to contribute without the combined effort of hundred of CMDRs.

Edit: In addition, if you know of any of this information was first mentioned by another CMDR, please let me know so I can give credit where it's due! I only claim to know what I have accomplished myself, but they are thanks to tip-offs given to me by others.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

Thirsty for more, I find there is no shortage of Controlled systems. So, I come here not only to share our findings, tactics, and strategies, but to ask if there is anywhere in particular people would like us to go?

I have a suggestion... two actually.

HIP 8825 and HIP 24329 were both invaded when maelstrom Oya landed. They weren't defended and fell to controlled. But... they don't have any systems within 10LYs, which seems to be the thargoid's (current) maximum expansion range for alerts. Meaning if they were liberated there's a really good chance they would stay human controlled permanently (barring any unforeseen changes to the thargoid's strategy).

 

[Xarionn]

Hmm.... Interesting find indeed, I'll see what I can do at my level but fighting Thargoids with science and research limpets is... "Unexpected" to say the least!

Now I hope Frontier won't "nerf" this immediately because from this post only, I sounds really effective, perhaps too much.

 

[XenosAurion]

I have a suggestion... two actually.

HIP 8825 and HIP 24329 were both invaded when maelstrom Oya landed. They weren't defended and fell to controlled. But... they don't have any systems within 10LYs, which seems to be the thargoid's (current) maximum expansion range for alerts. Meaning if they were liberated there's a really good chance they would stay human controlled permanently (barring any unforeseen changes to the thargoid's strategy).

Those are good suggestions! I like it, finally we are able to take advantage of their expansion system for our favor. I'll do what I can in Oya and keep progress posted.

 

[yttrbio]

A word of warning on those systems. I attempted a test in Chanyaya (invasion, 16.11 ly) to see, and at 135 tissue samples, it had not moved by 1 pip. This is in comparison to Aruntei (invasion, 46.06 ly), which moved about 7 with 285 samples. The proximity impact on difficulty is quite steep once you get close.

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

If you have samples from another system, like from the Pleiades, and you combine them with one or more from the target system, the stack will not change so that all samples are flagged as coming from the target system despite becoming one stack. The game knows which ones came from where and will only count the ones from the target system.

What if you have a carrier in an alert system that can sell samples on the market, potentially laundering them to reset their system of origin?

Thirsty for more, I find there is no shortage of Controlled systems. So, I come here not only to share our findings, tactics, and strategies, but to ask if there is anywhere in particular people would like us to go? I would prefer Controlled systems around Indra or Taranis, but I can be flexible. The less the Thargoids own, the less they can expand further outward as they have to redirect inward and restart progress all over again.

Thargoid invasion - Next target systems?

isnt faster to just go in a planetary defense AX, scan a cyclops, plant the limpets then just frag it and wait for them limpets to finish? the abundance of cyclops and no swarms isnt working for this task? Taking samples at a planetary attack will help progress the Invasion system from which...

forums.frontier.co.uk

I made a case there for going at Ceti Sector ZU-Y b3 next tick and I have about 200 samples stored for that. But I'm having a hard time firing off all my 64 limpets doing sampling in a control system before I have to bail.

 

[XenosAurion]

What if you have a carrier in an alert system that can sell samples on the market, potentially laundering them to reset their system of origin?

From what I've heard, buying and selling tissue samples resets their origin, but if they are still within the Alert system... That's an interesting idea. It might work? Seems like it would be an exploit. You should give it a shot. I'm excited to see what you find.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

I have a suggestion... two actually.

HIP 8825 and HIP 24329 were both invaded when maelstrom Oya landed. They weren't defended and fell to controlled. But... they don't have any systems within 10LYs, which seems to be the thargoid's (current) maximum expansion range for alerts. Meaning if they were liberated there's a really good chance they would stay human controlled permanently (barring any unforeseen changes to the thargoid's strategy).

This reminds me—I also am interested very much in a result such as HIP 8825 or HIP 24329 being impossible to place into Alert again once taken back. It may be that they can due to Maelstrom proximity, but if the 10 Ly hypothesis from the analysis thread still holds elsewhere then we may be able to identify disjoint cliques of systems which are untouchable collectively, which sounds like a nice weekend project for a particular mathematics department!

I recall identifying a few such cliques in the context of bounty-hunting and the 10 Ly range for Massacre missions, although most of those will be invalid due to the additional need for considering unpopulated systems here. As an example, Achenar is one of a group of thirteen populated systems having no 10 Ly connections to any other populated systems, which looks like this:

Unfortunately there are several unpopulated ICZ systems in between which can be used to connect those to others, so in that case the best one can say is that stopping all unpopulated Alerts would protect the Imperial capital implicitly. Finding some genuine cliques further out would be lovely though, especially if they are close to the existing war, in which case I will be sure to ask that nearby systems are not cleared so we can see what happens!

 

[XenosAurion]

Unfortunately there are several unpopulated ICZ systems in between which can be used to connect those to others, so in that case the best one can say is that stopping all unpopulated Alerts would protect the Imperial capital implicitly.

CMDR LiveWeyer had an idea for after one of these populated systems are reclaimed. Given the time, we could continue to harvest samples even after progress completion and then keep the samples stored in case the system falls under Alert again. Theoretically, the samples came from that system, so they should count towards the progress. It'd at least offer a buffer to aid in preventing invasion and we could prioritize more important or desired systems to focus efforts on.

Or has this method been disproven? I'm wondering if Alert samples and Controlled samples are different, like they wouldn't count for each other because the states are different. Might be overthinking it, but if that's not the case, I like his idea of deterrent stashes. Of course, this may also be used with Disemboweled Ego's idea of laundering, should that prove possible.

 

[yttrbio]

I tested alert systems gathered the week before a system went to invasion, and they worked for the invasion state, so I suspect the only thing tracked is system of origin. That said, I don't know where you would keep these stashes. Someone would have to dedicate their fleet carrier to one system per interceptor type. And I don't think it's safe to assume there won't be a nerf coming for this method, which would leave a lot of that work useless after-the-fact.

 

[XenosAurion]

We've begun harvesting tissue samples in HIP 8825 and initial results are in: 449 samples of Cyclops, Medusa, and Hydra mix got us 2 chevrons of progress. Considering it is a populated system >25Ly from Oya Maelstrom, we are not surprised, though I am kind of disappointed. At ~450 samples for 2 chevrons, we're looking at 225 samples for 1 chevron. 225*50 = 11,250 required for system completion. A daunting number, but if we break it down between CMDRs, it is possible.

11,250 / 7 days = ~1608 samples needed per day to reclaim the system in a week.

Being optimistic, let's say we could get 12 CMDRs (3 wings) to help and put in an hour or two per day. 1608/12 = 134 samples per person per day. Considering some ships may gather more than others, that number can easily be covered in an hour or two's effort.

Being unoptimistic, let's say we get no help and only have 3 CMDRs, like we did tonight. 1608/3 = 536 samples per person per day. Now that's asking too much, several hours worth of sample harvesting.

Conclusion: Without additional aid, this system will be too difficult to reclaim. The more CMDRs who help, the more likely it will be to be under human control once again.

 

[Xarionn]

We've begun harvesting tissue samples in HIP 8825 and initial results are in: 449 samples of Cyclops, Medusa, and Hydra mix got us 2 chevrons of progress. Considering it is a populated system >25Ly from Oya Maelstrom, we are not surprised, though I am kind of disappointed. At ~450 samples for 2 chevrons, we're looking at 225 samples for 1 chevron. 225*50 = 11,250 required for system completion. A daunting number, but if we break it down between CMDRs, it is possible.

11,250 / 7 days = ~1608 samples needed per day to reclaim the system in a week.

Being optimistic, let's say we could get 12 CMDRs (3 wings) to help and put in an hour or two per day. 1608/12 = 134 samples per person per day. Considering some ships may gather more than others, that number can easily be covered in an hour or two's effort.

Being unoptimistic, let's say we get no help and only have 3 CMDRs, like we did tonight. 1608/3 = 536 samples per person per day. Now that's asking too much, several hours worth of sample harvesting.

Conclusion: Without additional aid, this system will be too difficult to reclaim. The more CMDRs who help, the more likely it will be to be under human control once again.

This shows how wide the difficulty spectrum truly is as the same efforts could've reclaimed any unpopulated systems controlled by the Thargoids.

Considering how efficient harvesting tissue samples is, it's not hard to imagine how many kills would be required to match that, especially when we know that 449 samples were only equal to 2 chevrons... That makes working on such systems quite "Inefficient" as we'd need to sacrifice a couple of invasions etc...

 

[Disemboweled Ego]

At ~450 samples for 2 chevrons, we're looking at 225 samples for 1 chevron.

That seems weirdly high (~25x the easy systems), were you selling many samples at once? Maybe there's a transaction cap? I'm paranoid about those and always sell the samples one at a time, would be good to 100% disprove that there isn't a cap like that either.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

Think it's probably the combination of it being closer (within 20LYs of the maelstrom) and being previously inhabited. Possibly even extra difficulty since it was one of the initial systems grabbed.
If you want a nice view while orbiting I recommend visiting the penal colony settlement...

 

[yttrbio]

That seems weirdly high (~25x the easy systems), were you selling many samples at once? Maybe there's a transaction cap? I'm paranoid about those and always sell the samples one at a time, would be good to 100% disprove that there isn't a cap like that either.

I have moved a system 20 pips at a time with a bulk sale, so I doubt there's a cap.

 

[Aleks Zuno]

Of interest to some here may be provisional lists of systems which, assuming the 10 Ly hypothesis, should never need defending nor reclaiming (with the exception of the original Maelstrom arrival affecting HIPs 8825 and 24329). Within a cube centered at Sol and extending 200 Ly in each direction, there appear to be at least 1645 such systems which definitely are disjoint from the others. Some additional systems may be disjoint, but only demonstrably so by using a larger cube.

The original report groups those results into disjoint cliques, followed by any loose individual systems at the end. There is also a simple list for convenience. Larger volumes can be checked if needed, and apologies for any errors!

 

[Starsong]

We've begun harvesting tissue samples in HIP 8825 and initial results are in: 449 samples of Cyclops, Medusa, and Hydra mix got us 2 chevrons of progress. Considering it is a populated system >25Ly from Oya Maelstrom, we are not surprised, though I am kind of disappointed. At ~450 samples for 2 chevrons, we're looking at 225 samples for 1 chevron. 225*50 = 11,250 required for system completion. A daunting number, but if we break it down between CMDRs, it is possible.

11,250 / 7 days = ~1608 samples needed per day to reclaim the system in a week.

Being optimistic, let's say we could get 12 CMDRs (3 wings) to help and put in an hour or two per day. 1608/12 = 134 samples per person per day. Considering some ships may gather more than others, that number can easily be covered in an hour or two's effort.

Being unoptimistic, let's say we get no help and only have 3 CMDRs, like we did tonight. 1608/3 = 536 samples per person per day. Now that's asking too much, several hours worth of sample harvesting.

Conclusion: Without additional aid, this system will be too difficult to reclaim. The more CMDRs who help, the more likely it will be to be under human control once again.

I’m joining in the effort. With that said, what ship are you using that gets 100 samples per hour?

 

[XenosAurion]

I’m joining in the effort. With that said, what ship are you using that gets 100 samples per hour?

A shielded Cutter, but it's been a team effort. I've been using a cold orbiter Krait Mk II which only has 32 limpet capacity and the only threat are the scouts, which are manageable. I can get about 70 in an hour, taking my time and considering the hyperdictions and interdictions it takes to return to a planet. But, with others running shielded Cutters and their 80+ capacity for anti-corrosion and double that for limpets, we can collect many in a short period of time.

You can do it solo in a shielded Cutter as well, but I've personally found less limpet successes with shield tanks. I believe it is due to how the Thargoids move about, or rather don't, and it destroys the tissue samples as they come off at the end of the harvest timer.

 

[XenosAurion]

You are welcome to continue in HIP 8825, but I don't think we'll be able to put enough of a dent to warrant continuing over a week's effort at the rate of samples required. To comfortably reclaim the system, we'd need maybe 20 CMDRs collecting samples and I'm an awful recruiter. I'll try the DCoH, but I can't guarantee we will get more help.

If you do not want to continue in HIP 8825, that's alright, no harm done and good data collected.

 

[Ned Flandalorian]

You can do it solo in a shielded Cutter as well, but I've personally found less limpet successes with shield tanks. I believe it is due to how the Thargoids move about, or rather don't, and it destroys the tissue samples as they come off at the end of the harvest timer.

Sampling has been broken (limpets randomly fail to return samples) for a long time, and from recent experiences I'm convinced there's no rhyme or reason to it.
You can see the limpets on the radar coming back to your ship empty handed (they have no solid square indicating they're carrying anything) and if you leave your cargo hatch closed and wiggle the ship around, all of a sudden the limpets will gain payloads and you can let them onboard to successfully deposit samples. I want to call them Schrodinger's samples because they poof into existence the moment you observe them but I guess that doesn't really fit (since they'd already been observed to not exist).