General / Off-Topic Corbyn off the rails?

beelbeebub

beelbeebub
from BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38568116

JC suggests a "maximum earnings cap", probably "somewhat higher" than his current £138k salary.

ok then

How would that work?

Just salaried income?

What about capital or stock gains? After all Zuckerberg is a billionaire because he owned a company that went from a campus web page to major internet giant. How do you cap that?

Payment in stock options? payment overseas?

What about self employed or freelance income? How much did Adele earn from her own voice? If that's ok, then why shouldn't somebody who is the best footballer also earn a lot from their labour?

What about JK Rowling, she made loads of money, by writing books that people wanted to read. should that income be capped?

note I'm not saying that income inequality isn't a thing (and a bad one at that) or that nothing should be done about it or that things are fine now.

I'm asking how could you fairly implement an earnings cap without either forcing highly talented people abroad or creating so many loopholes that it becomes a joke.
 

StiTch

StiTch
It's not particularly genius idea but...it's the BBC. You can trust that to be about as unbiased as Farage now.

Much, much, much bigger problems in politics atm than one remotely sane politician concocting a bad but at least well-mannered idea.
 
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racer1

racer1
A salary cap is virtually impossible to implement in practice.

People just find other ways to receive the benefit of the money without it being part of their "salary".

I love the latest news on Corbyn trying to copy Trump's populist style - just a shame that the masses like Trump's ideas where as a lot of Corbyn's ideas are simply not popular...
 
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beelbeebub

beelbeebub
Lianachan said:
I was a bit more surprised by his apparent new stance on free movement.
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^Which he has now rowed back on, according to Today (via HuffPo)
However speaking to Today, he said Labour was“not saying anyone couldn’t come here”. And he told ITV’s Good Morning Britain there was “not a sea change” in his view.
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I'm now confused. At best he is being very muddled and unclear about what his stance is.

I get that this is a complex issue and I'm not looking for snappy soundbites and slogans and I'm all for his idea about politics being conducted on substance not "punch and judy" snark, but he's really failing to be clear on things.


StiTch said:
It's not particularly genius idea but...it's the BBC. You can trust that to be about as unbiased as Farage now.

Much, much, much bigger problems in politics atm than one remotely sane politician concocting a bad but at least well-mannered idea.
Click to expand...

I'd say Jeremy Corbyn's "woolyness" is a major problem in politics right now. We have the conservative government in the grip of some sort of right wing palace coup and the main opposition party seems to be muddled and incoherent to the point of paralysis.

JC has made a number of blunders that make me really question how fit he is to be in power. He seems unable to reconcile his ideals with the real world.

He's supposed to be a thinker, yet a cursory glance at the idea of an "earnings cap" shows it's a nice soundbite to earn votes from a certain segment of the electorate but totally unworkable in practice. Sort of like Trumps wall.

So either he doesn't think there's a problem with an earnings cap (which is a problem), or he knows how fraught the "earnings cap" idea is and just wants the sound bite.

I'm from an enginnering design background and am comfortable with the "brainstorming" concept that "there's no such thing as a bad idea", but when you are leader of the opposition, you can't just throw out any old idea, you need to do some basic filtering.

BTW I'm all for a more equal society, I just think focusing on "dragging down" a few people at the top is a highly visible but counterproductive strategy. We need to be focusing on bringing the people at the bottom up (and to be fair he did talk about minimum wage increases)
 

StiTch

StiTch
beelbeebub said:
I'd say Jeremy Corbyn's "woolyness" is a major problem in politics right now. We have the conservative government in the grip of some sort of right wing palace coup and the main opposition party seems to be muddled and incoherent to the point of paralysis.

JC has made a number of blunders that make me really question how fit he is to be in power. He seems unable to reconcile his ideals with the real world.

He's supposed to be a thinker, yet a cursory glance at the idea of an "earnings cap" shows it's a nice soundbite to earn votes from a certain segment of the electorate but totally unworkable in practice. Sort of like Trumps wall.

So either he doesn't think there's a problem with an earnings cap (which is a problem), or he knows how fraught the "earnings cap" idea is and just wants the sound bite.

I'm from an enginnering design background and am comfortable with the "brainstorming" concept that "there's no such thing as a bad idea", but when you are leader of the opposition, you can't just throw out any old idea, you need to do some basic filtering.

BTW I'm all for a more equal society, I just think focusing on "dragging down" a few people at the top is a highly visible but counterproductive strategy. We need to be focusing on bringing the people at the bottom up (and to be fair he did talk about minimum wage increases)
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Overall, his "woolleyness" is both his exaltation and his downfall. Woolly? Perhaps. Perhaps we just don't remember what's it's like for a politician to give a rat's backside about his people.

I am not naive enough to believe an honest man can make it in politics. Politicians live off sound bites. "Er year sure, we'll do this for the environment and be much green government so wow, OH LOOK POWER, FRACKING EVERYWHERE!!!". You have to lie to actually be noticed, and that is not going away. So...not getting any false hopes if that's what's being thought.

Blunders? Yes. I abhor any man that does not make them. Party too thick to keep itself together? Yes. Used as a media pincushion for ridicule so we don't so much ridicule the very party in power urinating over every ethic it pretended to have? *shrugs* who knows....I'd rather a man unviably suggests taxing the rich too heavily than tries to bring down the NHS for money, but whatever you want mate ;)
 
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Lianachan

Lianachan
beelbeebub said:
^Which he has now rowed back on, according to Today (via HuffPo)


I'm now confused. At best he is being very muddled and unclear about what his stance is.

I get that this is a complex issue and I'm not looking for snappy soundbites and slogans and I'm all for his idea about politics being conducted on substance not "punch and judy" snark, but he's really failing to be clear on things.
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I don't think anybody, especially him, knows what his stance is. He's probably not been told it, yet.
 

FuzzySpider

FuzzySpider
The man is a disaster on stilts. He is pandering to populist nonsense both with his stance on immigration and now this. He is basically a left-wing Trump or Farage.

I am what many would call a "liberal lefty hand-wringer". I believe in a citizens income, a strong welfare system, and higher taxes to pay for them. But an arbitrary limit on how much people can actually make is nothing more than a simple attack on freedom to pander to people who hate that others are wealthier than they. It wouldn't help the economy, it wouldn't actually make those people happier (unless they get their jollies from spite), and it wouldn't work anyway - companies would just pay employees in shares.
 

Nerwan

Nerwan
I suppose the real question is what is the answer to ever growing inequality. The econonomics of automation and globalisation have given us significant problems in the developed world. Namely because the laws of supply and demand have slowly tended to equalise the going rate of our poorer unskilled workers with the same as those in very poor countries at the same time as elevating our richest workers to levels of wealth not seen since the French revolution.

Capping wages sounds like a blunt instrument (although I'd like to see this from the horses mouth because the BBC are appallingly biased when it comes to Corbyn) but ultimately it feels like something needs to be done about this problem. It seems to me that much of the current anger we see on the right (Trump et al) is essentially about this basic economic problem. Albiet steered through lack of education and populist causes in a weird and manipulated direction..
 

Boomer Kay

B
Nerwan said:
Tell that to the CEO of Barclays
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CEOs don't "work", they "delegate".
(my company actually sent me trough oodles of "management" trainings .. what a complete and untter garbage :D ).

Regarding caps to max salary - I think that's just populist rhetoric again. It's distracting from the real flaws in the system.
Someone who is worth a lot, should get payed a lot - that's it. Justin Bieber might be a diaper wearing annoyance and half-talented musician, but he sells albums so ... ^^

I made 3x as much from not working than I made from working in the last 3 years. I still pay my top taxes, but that's just cause I'm an idiot with a working family background (and love my morale superiority ;P ) ... -le sigh-

But yea, you can take that a bit too far. :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomperipossa_in_Monismania
 
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Nerwan

Nerwan
Boomer Kay said:
Someone who is worth a lot, should get payed a lot - that's it. Justin Bieber might be a diaper wearing annoyance and half-talented musician, but he sells albums so ... ^^
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I don't have a problem with that in principle. Except why are the people who are "worth a lot" getting worth more and more as time goes on. In the 70s directors got paid about 7/8 times what the janitor in their office got paid. Now they get paid around a thousand times what their janitor gets paid... Also conversely if you're not worth a lot (and that now applies to everyone in a western country who's job can be done via automation or in a developing country, should you be paid nothing at all? That's the conundrum of global capitalism.
 

Boomer Kay

B
Nerwan said:
I don't have a problem with that in principle. Except why are the people who are "worth a lot" getting worth more and more as time goes on. In the 70s directors got paid about 7/8 times what the janitor in their office got paid. Now they get paid around a thousand times what their janitor gets paid... Also conversely if you're not worth a lot (and that now applies to everyone in a western country who's job can be done via automation or in a developing country, should you be paid nothing at all? That's the conundrum of global capitalism.
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Ok. My pov:
It's the move from Entrepreneurship to investment banking.
Entrepreneurs put their own capital (and quite a bit of actual work) into their company (look at Frontier ;) as long as Mr. B holds the majority of the share, I'm with them - for the sheer fact of supporting actual entrepreneurship - and because I like their Products). Their success and failure and wealth or bancruptcy are closely tied to the success of the company (look at the Elon Musk vs. Hendgefond Clowns -like Chanos- controversies .. you can probably guess who I root for :) ).

Predatory Investment Banking (the most profitable one) -especially with the rather silly "tools" they've created in the last 20-30 years- is not interested in that. They just need someone to get them short-term profit, pay them handsomly and then move on to the next target. That someone is "Managers". Payment is handsome, because you need a lot of money to fill that hole in your soul. :)

hm.. managers and politicians alike are not really held accountable enough for their work. At the end of the day, they sit there and deny all knowledge, if anything went wrong. Great "visionary" leaders they are.
 
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TheAntitheist Crusader

T
I wish i could support Corbyn (i'm labour), i love that he wants to tax the rich, give more power to the unions and help the NHS, i even love that he is starting to understand immigration change is needed. But i can't support him for the following reasons that i believe make him unfit to lead, kind of like trump but the opposite version (on the spectrum). 1. He wants to remove our military. 2. He is CND and pacifist. 3. He has strange "friends" for a liberal minded softy (Hamas and Hezzbollah are actually terrorist groups). And 4......he says faith schools are good, what kind of secular socialist promotes brainwashing ?
 
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Boomer Kay

B
http://www.politico.eu/article/jeremy-corbyn-relaunch-insight

"It might a seem a small concession, but this is the making of a consensus between the two biggest Westminster parties that freedom of movement must end. What would have been a radical position for either party to advocate less than a year ago is now the political center of gravity."

They'll sell it as "yea, noone can come in to take your job".
It means: "yea, you won't get out".
 

beelbeebub

beelbeebub
my grip against corbyn is that he is the wrong man for the time. right at the moment the UK need a strong and organised opposition he's presided over the implosion of the labour party.

The conservatives have a majority of a dozen or so MPs, wafer thin yet they are able to run unopposed as though they had a bullet proof majority of 90 or more.

If Corbyn could overcome his distaste of working with conservatives, there are 150 or so who would be willing to work with labour to oppose Brexit and allow him to actually get something done about the causes he cares about.

I get the feeling he would rather see an injustice continue and whinge about it than see the injustice reduced because that would mean compromising on eliminating it.

"never let perfect be the enemy of good" is something Corbyn should heed.
 

FuzzySpider

FuzzySpider
beelbeebub said:
If Corbyn could overcome his distaste of working with conservatives, there are 150 or so who would be willing to work with labour to oppose Brexit and allow him to actually get something done about the causes he cares about.
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He appears to be willing to compromise on immigration.
 
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