Covert theft/heists - my issues with mechanics

[Artyomska]

Normally, in a stealth game/section, the objectives and the patrolling guards are set up to give a difficult yet achievable goal. I know these are a tad more difficult to achieve with randomly generated settlement layouts, objectives and guards, but sometimes (cough most of the times) these are ridiculous in Odyssey.

First of all, the objective (sample unit or locker holding the required item) sometimes spawns in hard - if not impossible - to reach places. Having them in restricted areas is a nice touch of difficulty, but when that area is small and permanently inhabited by an NPC it gets silly.
Secondly, I've seen in another thread that the settlement alarm panel should be in the POW building. I've personally never seen it there. I do, however, see it in tiny rooms with a guard that never leaves, a similar issue with my first point.

"But what about making the NPCs leave, or kill them?"
I've tried luring them out by cutting the building atmoshere. It sometimes works, making the guards panic and walk around looking for the culprit. Best case scenario they go outside the building, leaving you free to explore. Worst case scenario they patrol the same areas - but even worse, are semi-aggressive now. Sit a few more seconds in their vicinity and they're happy to kill you.
And killing them? For starters, it gives you a bounty, which doesn't help one bit. You can dump your illegal items/authorization so a scanning guard doesn't agro you, but a bounty cuts that off permanently. If a guard happens to see you and asks for a scan, the only thing you can hope for is to run and that they get lazy and leave you alone without triggering the alarm, otherwise mission's done. And, by Murphy's law, there's always a guard behind the next door, so a scan's always coming.
Also, I heard the Energylink's overload stealth-kills people. Pity they all really love watching you, sometimes moonwalking just to keep an eye on you, and just toggling to overload instantly tags you as enemy. So that's a bust, at least in my book, but I'm sure there's a way to use this properly, so it's a lesser critique from me.

The cherry on top that made me write this thread in the first place: tiny room permanently inhabited by a dude, and a guard that notices a zapped door and doesn't need any extra reason to shoot me (video)


If you have some insight about how to make this process simpler, please consider sharing. I've attempted a dozen or more covert missions yet finished 5. Sure, most of those failures were completely my fault, like running away from a scan or getting caught stealing, but some were IMO beyond my control.

 

[Screemonster]

I heard the Energylink's overload stealth-kills people.

Yes, it does. If you haven't been taking advantage of this, then yes, you'll have trouble with these missions.

Sometimes there are those annoying issues with the guy in the alarm room that never leaves. Sometimes, if you're clean you can bait him out by standing next to his window in the non-restricted bit of the base and getting him to come out so he can scan you, then if nobody else is around just zap him. I've baited guards out of restricted areas by standing with their patrol route right on the edge of the red circle so they come out to scan me, then I duck and steal their access when they turn around to go back to what they were doing.

And if all else fails and you can't get the hang of zapping people, then.. well. A noise suppressed tormentor works wonders.

 

[Vardaugas]

My last heist went a bit awry. As soon as I entered the building with my stolen ID, a guard came at me to do a scan. pop After I turned off alarms in the building, a scientist opened fire on my for no fathomable reason. pop Two scientists heard the shots and came looking. pop pop Then another scientist walked in on the bodies. pop
But other than that, the heist went alright. Sample stolen, no alarm, no guards or settlement defences shooting at me. That noise suppressed Tormentor must be my luckiest find.

Oh and about tips: Make use of verticality. The guards don't scan you on the rooftop and you can evade their patrol routes more easy. Also a sprint enhancement on your suit is useful for going around the long way to your ship.

 

[Guyperson]

Alarm panels are normally in CMD buildings, and if there isn't a CMD then it can be found in either the PWR building or the main economy-related building.

And I don't know about impossible as long as the panels and objective are actually present and not eaten by bugs. I had to disable the alarm in the security office of a CMD building with a permanently installed guard inside, and patrols at the doors meant I couldn't overload my way in without arousing suspicion. I entered with a stolen ID, baited the guard into coming out to scan me, dropped the ID, passed the scan then snuck in behind her, disabled the alarm and stole her ID (which conveniently was level 3) before she even turned around again. Made it through there with the heist sample, all their valuables, no casualties and nobody even slightly suspicious.

 

[Screemonster]

That noise suppressed Tormentor must be my luckiest find.

I just wish I'd found an audio masked one. Noise suppressors are available from tier-1 engineers, so far there isn't an engineer that does audio masking.
The only gun I've found with audio masking is a C-44 which I found just wasn't killing guards fast enough to stop them from firing back and attracting attention - if you want a stealth kill you really need something that'll drop them before they return fire or get their shields up. Which... the energylink overload does.

 

[Fishy]

If a guard happens to see you and asks for a scan

Then they're just the next dead body? Covert just means "no alarms", it's a lot easier than non-violent.

 

[Screemonster]

Then they're just the next dead body? Covert just means "no alarms", it's a lot easier than non-violent.

One time, before I had the noise suppressor on that pistol, I was in a similar room at an agri settlement to the one in that vid. One of them turned around and saw me while I was stealing the other's access. They yelled and went hostile.
I shot them.
The other one pulled a gun and opened fire.
I shot them too.
The guy in the room outside ran in. Guess what?
The guard that was patrolling outside started coming in. I saw them on my radar. I switched to my shotgun and guess what? I shot them.
Another guard heard the noise and came to investigate. As soon as the door opened? Blammo.
Another guard came investigating. He also got a free sample of delicious plasma buckshot.
I waited around for a while and the outer airlock stopped making noises, so I poked my head out. Nobody out there.
Holstered my gun.
Walked out.
Strolled to the power building next door, unbothered by patrols as everyone that would have been patrolling had been taken out already.
Figure I'm already wanted and there's nobody left in earshot, so I don't bother stealthing my way into the two guys in the power building. Bam. Run up the stairs. Bam. Turn around and switch off the alarms, not that they've made a difference at this point.
Mosey on to the hab building since literally taking something out of that access-0 locker room was the only reason I was there, and the only reason I wanted the alarms off was 'cause for some reason that building is a restricted area past the doorway and there's always a dude in there despite that building being a target for legal collection missions.
Swipe the goods.
Leave.
LIKE I WAS NEVER THERE.

 

[Ydiss]

I've yet to encounter a scenario that's impossible (excluding the settlement that has no alarms panel, covert heists are impossible there and that's why I raised a ticket for it). I've recorded myself on every type of stealth challenge I've found so far (although I'm sure I've not yet found them all) and sure, I failed some but I was always able to work it out eventually. I even feature one of these difficult scenarios in my guides (link below).

It is very challenging and I'm pretty sure that's a good thing. But definitely not impossible. The 6 covert heists and thefts I had to do to unlock Terra, I completed all of them in sequence without failing one. Some I got very close to failing, some I had to "fudge" because I messed up. And, learning all this didn't just come to me in my sleep, I had to go through the basics to get better at it.

Which is why I'm doing guides to maybe help others get through that learning bit a little faster.

The Definitive Stealth Guide!

I finally got my first "Live Odyssey" video guide completed and it's now available to view on Youtube, complete with a brand new intro/outro and improved audio recording. Most of the transcript is available in the description of the video but I'll add the key points here. I'll be adding to this...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Lazerus Artificial]

Normally, in a stealth game/section, the objectives and the patrolling guards are set up to give a difficult yet achievable goal. I know these are a tad more difficult to achieve with randomly generated settlement layouts, objectives and guards, but sometimes (cough most of the times) these are ridiculous in Odyssey.

First of all, the objective (sample unit or locker holding the required item) sometimes spawns in hard - if not impossible - to reach places. Having them in restricted areas is a nice touch of difficulty, but when that area is small and permanently inhabited by an NPC it gets silly.
Secondly, I've seen in another thread that the settlement alarm panel should be in the POW building. I've personally never seen it there. I do, however, see it in tiny rooms with a guard that never leaves, a similar issue with my first point.

"But what about making the NPCs leave, or kill them?"
I've tried luring them out by cutting the building atmoshere. It sometimes works, making the guards panic and walk around looking for the culprit. Best case scenario they go outside the building, leaving you free to explore. Worst case scenario they patrol the same areas - but even worse, are semi-aggressive now. Sit a few more seconds in their vicinity and they're happy to kill you.
And killing them? For starters, it gives you a bounty, which doesn't help one bit. You can dump your illegal items/authorization so a scanning guard doesn't agro you, but a bounty cuts that off permanently. If a guard happens to see you and asks for a scan, the only thing you can hope for is to run and that they get lazy and leave you alone without triggering the alarm, otherwise mission's done. And, by Murphy's law, there's always a guard behind the next door, so a scan's always coming.
Also, I heard the Energylink's overload stealth-kills people. Pity they all really love watching you, sometimes moonwalking just to keep an eye on you, and just toggling to overload instantly tags you as enemy. So that's a bust, at least in my book, but I'm sure there's a way to use this properly, so it's a lesser critique from me.

The cherry on top that made me write this thread in the first place: tiny room permanently inhabited by a dude, and a guard that notices a zapped door and doesn't need any extra reason to shoot me (video)


If you have some insight about how to make this process simpler, please consider sharing. I've attempted a dozen or more covert missions yet finished 5. Sure, most of those failures were completely my fault, like running away from a scan or getting caught stealing, but some were IMO beyond my control.

i hate heist missions with a passion by now.
i manage to get to the sample just fine, activate it aaaaand alarm goes off.
so, next time i deactivate alarm first. of course the guard only patrols around this huge glass window. so i have to kill him, or risk a fine or even lethal response for trespassing.
i cant knock them out to not get a bounty either. so all my heist attempts ended with a complete wipe of the enemy base...or my death after deactivating the alarm.

 

[Ydiss]

i hate heist missions with a passion by now.
i manage to get to the sample just fine, activate it aaaaand alarm goes off.
so, next time i deactivate alarm first. of course the guard only patrols around this huge glass window. so i have to kill him, or risk a fine or even lethal response for trespassing.
i cant knock them out to not get a bounty either. so all my heist attempts ended with a complete wipe of the enemy base...or my death after deactivating the alarm.

You can get around the guards though, every time. Even in the tightest of rooms, it's possible if you time it and are patient.

 

[Screemonster]

Another thing about gaining access - you often only need level 1 or 2 for the alarms themselves. I don't recall ever seeing a level 3 access locked alarms console.
Nearly every installation, if not every installation has a terminal somewhere that doesn't get passed by an NPC, meaning that if push comes to shove you can just e-breach that sucker and find out exactly where the alarm controls are.
Even if you can't just run down the list to populate your radar as of the latest patch, which I guess made things too easy, you can use any terminal to track a particular inhabitant.
Even if you go loud, you have a few seconds to take care of people that are calling for help before the actual alarm goes off, and hearing gunshots alone doesn't seem to be enough to make the people outside actually raise the alarm - if all else fails you can literally just bumrush the security booth, empty both barrels of an intimidator into the guard, swipe his ID and disable the alarms before anyone actually reaches the room.

 

[Ydiss]

Another thing about gaining access - you often only need level 1 or 2 for the alarms themselves. I don't recall ever seeing a level 3 access locked alarms console.
Nearly every installation, if not every installation has a terminal somewhere that doesn't get passed by an NPC, meaning that if push comes to shove you can just e-breach that sucker and find out exactly where the alarm controls are.
Even if you can't just run down the list to populate your radar as of the latest patch, which I guess made things too easy, you can use any terminal to track a particular inhabitant.
Even if you go loud, you have a few seconds to take care of people that are calling for help before the actual alarm goes off, and hearing gunshots alone doesn't seem to be enough to make the people outside actually raise the alarm - if all else fails you can literally just bumrush the security booth, empty both barrels of an intimidator into the guard, swipe his ID and disable the alarms before anyone actually reaches the room.

There are some alarm panels locked behind level 3, such as the SEC room variant that is a single restricted room behind a level 2 door, frequently seen in CMD buildings here:

You can just make out the number top-right in the freeze frame I took. These are level 3. In this case (this exact location, not always this layout), there's an NPC stood right behind me and she doesn't move ever - the NPC inside does though. The NPC outside is level 2, the NPC inside level 3. This particular layout is very difficult to infiltrate without getting detected or using force. Not impossible though. I've done it many times at this location.

You're right though, most do not require level 3. Not that it matters. Getting level 3 is just a matter of time.

 

[Ydiss]

Just watched the video in that OP. It's funny, I was just recording myself running an industrial base for mats and that layout is here. That very room and that very NPC is here too. I got spotted (but not caught) by that NPC a moment ago but I managed to lead him around a column using blocked LOS and crouch to stay out of his LOS and he eventually gave up.

You can coexist in these rooms even if the NPC stays there permanently, so long as they move. It becomes more difficult if there are doors that open to other NPCs and so in those cases you need to pick the right door to enter by and passive scans are essential here. And then, if doing a heist, you never need to "stay" in the room anyway. Just sneak in, open it, sneak out, wait, sneak in, take it, sneak out.

Always possible. But yes, definitely challenging. Do you feel that if you could do everything first time without failure that it would be challenging?

 

[Screemonster]

There are some alarm panels locked behind level 3, such as the SEC room variant that is a single restricted room behind a level 2 door, frequently seen in CMD buildings here:

View attachment 240714

You can just make out the number top-right in the freeze frame I took. These are level 3. In this case (this exact location, not always this layout), there's an NPC stood right behind me and she doesn't move ever - the NPC inside does though. The NPC outside is level 2, the NPC inside level 3. This particular layout is very difficult to infiltrate without getting detected or using force. Not impossible though. I've done it many times at this location.

You're right though, most do not require level 3. Not that it matters. Getting level 3 is just a matter of time.

The console doesn't need level 3. The door might.

That particular layout is a great use-case for e-breaches actually. Just tase that never-moves-ever person behind you, slap an e-breach on the access lock and bust your way in.

Another fun fact about e-breaches - NPCs can only spot them on the side of the door with the ID scanner. Meaning that if you use one on the outside of a room, the people inside the room won't see it, nor will they bat an eye when the door obligingly opens for you.

 

[Ydiss]

The console doesn't need level 3. The door might.

That particular layout is a great use-case for e-breaches actually. Just tase that never-moves-ever person behind you, slap an e-breach on the access lock and bust your way in.

Another fun fact about e-breaches - NPCs can only spot them on the side of the door with the ID scanner. Meaning that if you use one on the outside of a room, the people inside the room won't see it, nor will they bat an eye when the door obligingly opens for you.

Alarms panels are only level 1, yes. You did say "locked", so I thought you were talking about the doors. No, you do not need anything higher than 1 to disable alarms. You do need 2 to open the container on a heist, so may as well get level 2.

And yes, you can always use ebreaches, another option though limited in number (and definitely not my favourite method due to that issue). The other issue with ebreaches is it immediately means you must avoid scans from the get go. Not a major issue if you know what you're doing, just something that changes the way a heist can work a little. And I'd definitely not use an ebreach on a sample containment target unless NPCs ignore it (never tested but I assume they'd get triggered if they saw it). And in the heists where there's an NPC near, they'll go check it as soon as it's opened.

I love how all this works though. So many options and none is "the best". They all have reasont to use them and different risks. I think Fdev just need a proper stealth tutorial.

 

[Screemonster]

One thing I've not extensively tested is just how hostile guards are if you make a noise but they don't see you with a weapon out or give you any warnings.
Say, if you discharge a weapon behind a building, quickly holster it, and jump onto the roof without being seen. Will they be hostile towards you if they bump into you on the way back?
Likewise, if I lob a grenade somewhere to get them to investigate the noise and they don't see me until after they've put their gun away, will they become aggressive again?

 

[Ydiss]

One thing I've not extensively tested is just how hostile guards are if you make a noise but they don't see you with a weapon out or give you any warnings.
Say, if you discharge a weapon behind a building, quickly holster it, and jump onto the roof without being seen. Will they be hostile towards you if they bump into you on the way back?
Likewise, if I lob a grenade somewhere to get them to investigate the noise and they don't see me until after they've put their gun away, will they become aggressive again?

I have tested this. They won't go hostile towards you in these cases, no. You can do anything you like so long as they don't see you do it. I'm pretty sure this includes killing someone and them finding the body. They don't automatically know it's you.

This does mean teams heists (if only the netcode works) are very cool. A player can run distraction for you.

That said, if you do trigger NPCs to go hostile and there's a "cascade" (so others get aggressive) and you kill or evade them, it seems the whole base will be alerted to you and will go KOS as soon as they see you; if the alarms aren't enabled they will still "reset", they'll just treat you as hostile - this is tied into the base itself showing as red when you leave, I'm sure of it. I'm unsure of the mechanics behind this exactly but that is how I've seen it go down most times.

 

[Screemonster]

Okay, so, next experiment - I need to find myself an audio-masked L-6 and see what happens if I hide on the roof of one building and cause an explosion way way way way off by another building.

... I assume audio masking only silences the launch and not the actual explosion.

...

... right?

 

[Ydiss]

Okay, so, next experiment - I need to find myself an audio-masked L-6 and see what happens if I hide on the roof of one building and cause an explosion way way way way off by another building.

... I assume audio masking only silences the launch and not the actual explosion.

...

... right?

Right.

I've been able to snipe a bunch of scavengers at long enough range and in pitch darkness (I had night vision) and they simply stood there and died. Without audio masking.

My guess is that if you do this at long enough range you won't get instantly hostile. This works for me and using the Executioner and not exactly at long ranges either. Nearby NPCs will go into "alert" state, up shields and start looking for you but if they don't see you they'll eventually reset and won't go red. I'm going to do a video on it at some point, as a guide for scavenger kill missions without getting swarmed.

But I've never tried anything like this with an L6 so go for it

 

[Screemonster]

Right.

I've been able to snipe a bunch of scavengers at long enough range and in pitch darkness (I had night vision) and they simply stood there and died. Without audio masking.

My guess is that if you do this at long enough range you won't get instantly hostile. This works for me and using the Executioner and not exactly at long ranges either. Nearby NPCs will go into "alert" state, up shields and start looking for you but if they don't see you they'll eventually reset and won't go red. I'm going to do a video on it at some point, as a guide for scavenger kill missions without getting swarmed.

But I've never tried anything like this with an L6 so go for it

The L-6 is a fantastic weapon for going loud. If you're gonna go loud, go loud.
I've actually taken for using it as my primary weapon on my maverick, just because the tormentor is good enough for anything I'd normally use a rifle for, and the intimidator left me a little too vulnerable to strikers since I'd have to get close to their shotty, and against sharpshooters I was left just having to try and dodge fire while I closed the distance.
A pair of L-6 rockets will ruin anyone's day.