Engineers Crazy thought - Allow a CMDR to pass their crafted module blue print onto someone else (via ship docking)

[NeilF]

Crazy thought - Allow a CMDR to pass their crafted module blue print onto someone else (via ship docking)

A few months ago I was trying to promote the idea of allowing ship to ship docking under the premise of the two docked CMDRs then being able "transact" in simple ways:-
- Slow fuel transfer.
- Slow cargo transfer and materials? eg: Give me a Polonium for 2T of Gold!
- Repair of another ship's systems using YOUR AMFUs.
- Missions to collect/deliver items to (NPC) ships rather than a station etc.


Imagine if this also included mechanics to pass on a 1st gen module's blue print onto the same module of the other CMDR's. eg: So while docked, CMDR A, with a 1st gen crafted module, could pass its spec (behaviour) onto the same module of CMDR B's ship as a 2nd gen version.

Optionally: A 2nd gen would then not be capable of being used to create a 3rd gen etc. So only the 1st gen (master) could ever be used to create a copy/child.


What does this result in?:-
- Individuals could specialise in certain material collection and "sell" them. Could we end up with "Module Rats?" Need ten "Unusually Shakey Wake Signatures?" Well, contact the "Module Rats!"
- Individuals could specialise in module production and "sell" them.
- Even better, groups could work togethor to collect the necessary items with a view of one of the group finally creating their desired module, which they could then use to create copies of for the rest of the group. Note: With the full suggest (of ship to ship docking) it would mean different members could collect different things (materials) before docking and passing them over.


Anyway, just another thought as trying to get more player to player emergent gameplay in to the game...


ps1: This cloning might well require certain materials (eg: as per the original generation).

ps2: On the subject of groups, I was hoping that Wing play would get certain benefits. eg: If one of the Wing gets a material, where possible, the rest of the Wing (at the location) would too!?

 

[Robert Maynard]

It would reduce the effort required to gain a "top roll" module - theoretically only one player in the game would need to get the roll for that module then it could be cloned indefinitely....

It would favour groups over individuals.

As to magically duplicating materials scooped while in a Wing....

 

[Alexymus]

I think passing BPs to other commander not a good idea. But having a BP in every type of module in reserve, what an engineer researched is another question.
You still need the engineer to modify your equipment and it would need the materials, but a good result can be copied to another module without new gambling/research.
You chose what modification result you would keep, and if you want, you can reroll the stats by initiating a new research.

Other commander should fight for their results . This prevent ppl buy advanced equipment with real money.

 

[Marcus Franconium]

The new multicrew expansion later this year could have some form of engineering based on experience trail and error to tweak your engines sensors weapons shields and so on .
Not modefying them but fine tuning them for a better perfomance.

 

[NeilF]

It would reduce the effort required to gain a "top roll" module - theoretically only one player in the game would need to get the roll for that module then it could be cloned indefinitely....

If we're talking about "top roll" combat modules, surely there shouldn't be such a thing? Else the whole premise is for nothing? Instead of creating variety, all we'll achieve is a new harder to achieve meta?

As for being able to pass the module on, how is that a bad thing? If a CMDRs passes it on to a dozen other folks... So?

It would favour groups over individuals.

We're assuming we're back to "winning modules" again? Seems a questionable idea to me... Someone who can farm away for 500 hours will be guaranteed a ship performance someone who doesn't have so much time, or just can't stand farming, can achieve, even though they own the exact same ship/config!?

How is that productive?

As to magically duplicating materials scooped while in a Wing....

How is it magic, if it requires the exact same materials as the initial crafting to generate the second gen?

And it's not being in a Wing that allows it, it's being physically docked togethor.

 

[Flimley]

It's not such a crazy idea, would be nice to collect more than one blueprint from an engineer also. and why not swap an unused but upgraded module too ?!
It would help groups and make the Galaxy a bit more socially interactive with Cmdr's meeting up to exchange upgraded modules and blueprints.
We could even have our very own 'exchange and module' (a play on the exchange and mart second car magazine here in the UK) forum section.
What better way to encorage more or of an MMO experience.

Flimley.

 

[Robert Maynard]

If we're talking about "top roll" combat modules, surely there shouldn't be such a thing? Else the whole premise is for nothing? Instead of creating variety, all we'll achieve is a new harder to achieve meta?

As for being able to pass the module on, how is that a bad thing? If a CMDRs passes it on to a dozen other folks... So?

In a pseudo-random situation there will always be "better" modules - that may take many, many rolls to achieve. To allow duplication would reduce variation rather than increase it.

We're assuming we're back to "winning modules" again? Seems a questionable idea to me... Someone who can farm away for 500 hours will be guaranteed a ship performance someone who doesn't have so much time, or just can't stand farming, can achieve, even though they own the exact same ship/config!?

How is that productive?

The "farmer" would earn their own reputation with the Engineer, gather their own materials for the multiple rolls (probably) required to gain a module with the desired characteristics

The player in receipt of a duplicate would only need to harvest the materials (and not even that if material trading were introduced) and know someone who was prepared to allow their module to be cloned - rather a shortcut....

How is it magic, if it requires the exact same materials as the initial crafting to generate the second gen?

This bit:

ps2: On the subject of groups, I was hoping that Wing play would get certain benefits. eg: If one of the Wing gets a material, where possible, the rest of the Wing (at the location) would too!?

... implies one scoops and all receive - unlike cargo.

 

[Mephane]

If we're talking about "top roll" combat modules, surely there shouldn't be such a thing? Else the whole premise is for nothing? Instead of creating variety, all we'll achieve is a new harder to achieve meta?

I have news for you. FD created precisely that:

In a pseudo-random situation there will always be "better" modules - that may take many, many rolls to achieve. To allow duplication would reduce variation rather than increase it.

Variation is not valuable per se. Especially not when the variation is just in the numbers. Imagine all everyone ever used was beam lasers - except everyone had random variations on the stats, so no two beam lasers or ships are technically identical - it'd still be boring and not an interesting form of variety.

Or imagine if every stock item already came with random variations in stats and no refunds. You buy a beam laser - oh it has 5% less damage than nominal, throw it away (no refunds!), buy another one. Repeat until satisfied with the stats. Sounds silly? Well that is what engineers do, except we don't just pay universal credits, but have to painstakingly farm very specific combinations of materials.

 

[NeilF]

In a pseudo-random situation there will always be "better" modules - that may take many, many rolls to achieve.

The premise concerns me... We're simply breeding a mechanic which might make players feel they have to farm for countless hours, participating in mechanics that are not particularly what they enjoy, simply to be "competitive" (ie: Get uber beam lasers).

Again, I was under the impress crafted modules would create variety over significant improvement in combat.

To allow duplication would reduce variation rather than increase it.

Fine... Make the "copy" not perfect, so you have a "mini spin of the Wheel Of Fortune". It may even end up a tad better if that's possible

The "farmer" would earn their own reputation with the Engineer, gather their own materials for the multiple rolls (probably) required to gain a module with the desired characteristics

The player in receipt of a duplicate would only need to harvest the materials (and not even that if material trading were introduced) and know someone who was prepared to allow their module to be cloned - rather a shortcut....

And? So? This second player would not then be able to go to the engineer themselves for any other crafting!?

... implies one scoops and all receive - unlike cargo.

Understood, but it seems FD tried to make Wings advantageous, which works nicely in trading. But then they sort of stopped. Infact, with exploration, it's actually penalised! It would be nice to see them being pro-active about people working togethor to reward it IMHO.

 

[NeilF]

I have news for you. FD created precisely that:

http://i.imgur.com/YmKTvC1.jpg

Thanks for that image...

So off (my) topic Can we go through those stats? They're confusing me!?

So we end up with:-

• Rate of fire is nigh on 30% quicker. So instead of 10 rounds being fired over a period of time, 13 will now.
• Damage per hit is up nigh on 60%. So if a round hits, it's now doing 60% more damage?
• Damage per second is up over 100%. So it will be doing twice as much damage in real outcome?

Then add to this the heat rounds side effect?

And the expence/downside of twice the damage is 25% more energy draw?


So in effect you've got a crafted weapon than is now dishing out the damage of two of the originals, at 75% less energy usage of them?

How is this going to do anything but:-
1) Make everyone feel they have to jump on this bandwagon?
2) Make even more players feel Mobius is a good place to be if they can't face farming for these upgrades?


The only place I see this "improving" the game is PvE where you can now have fun blasting NPCs more easily. I'm confused how this is going to do anything but create (yet more) balancing issues in OPEN. eg: With individual feeling so inclined dedicating huge effort to pimping their ships up and then going out looking for CMDRs (ideally who haven't jumped on the crafting band wagon).

 

[Mephane]

How is this going to do anything but:-
1) Make everyone feel they have to jump on this bandwagon?
2) Make even more players feel Mobius is a good place to be if they can't face farming for these upgrades?

About point #1, I am absolutely sure that is exactly FD's intention here. All people saying here how these were just "optional" are deluding themselves.

So in effect you've got a crafted weapon than is now dishing out the damage of two of the originals, at 75% less energy usage of them?

I don't have a screenshot at hand, but you should also check out Heavy Duty Shield Booster. Optimal results are like, 40% more mass for +240% the original shield boost (20% * 340% = 68% effective shield boost per item), no extra power draw. With these you can simultaneously:
- Half the number of shield boosters
- Thus free up utility hard points
- Reduce your total mass
- Reduce your total power draw
- Gain significantly higher shield capacity

There is absolutely no downside to this.

 

[NeilF]

About point #1, I am absolutely sure that is exactly FD's intention here. All people saying here how these were just "optional" are deluding themselves.

Well if we're into the realms of weapons being nigh on doubled in effectiveness, it's a "game changer" surely!? Add to that the magic side effect ontop too... Wow!

Well, I think this game is looking more and more fixated on PvE... As surely PvP will now mean these sorts of mods will become a must have. And gankers must be farmnig like crazy to get their hands on these!

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

OK lets take some of the randomness out of it, and lets keep it incentivised for players to work their way up to the top ranks....

Lets make it so that only players with engineer R5 can be the originator of such cloned modules, and they can only clone modules they have modded to max tier, and the clone will always be a top roll for two tiers of modification less than the original. So for example if the Originator had multi cannon's modded with "tier 5" "overcharged weapons" they could use that as a "pattern" part to craft tier 3 "replicas" for their buddies.

Lets make it carry some semblance of verisimilitude and the "originator" has to expend Y times the class of module being crafted in AFMU ammo to perform the craft.... IE: cloning a class 2 multicannon to tier three would use 2Y AFMU ammo, crafting a class 1 rail gun would use Y AFMU ammo, crafying a class 3 beam laser 3Y AFMU ammo

 

[NeilF]

OK lets take some of the randomness out of it, and lets keep it incentivised for players to work their way up to the top ranks....

Lets make it so that only players with engineer R5 can be the originator of such cloned modules, and they can only clone modules they have modded to max tier, and the clone will always be a top roll for two tiers of modification less than the original. So for example if the Originator had multi cannon's modded with "tier 5" "overcharged weapons" they could use that as a "pattern" part to craft tier 3 "replicas" for their buddies.

Lets make it carry some semblance of verisimilitude and the "originator" has to expend Y times the class of module being crafted in AFMU ammo to perform the craft.... IE: cloning a class 2 multicannon to tier three would use 2Y AFMU ammo, crafting a class 1 rail gun would use Y AFMU ammo, crafying a class 3 beam laser 3Y AFMU ammo

TBH, I wasn't aware of just how "powerful" some of these crafted modules were, as demonstrated above by Mephane...

Given we're talking about modules that are nigh on twice as powerful - ignoring all the balancing issues that creates - there would have to be hurdles for the 2nd Gen CMDR to get stuff like that. My suggestion was geared more towards modules of a more "levelled" approach, where they weren't so obviously "craft to win"

TBH, given I was already deflated by the (simplistic) gameplay and mechanics put in place to "pay" for crafting, but having now started getting an idea of where the "end game" is (with "win" modules), I'm just bit myeh about it all now... Just all seems a very strange set of design choices, both for the strength (or lack of) of the gameplay elements introduced, and also the objective for the game of actually introducing such strong upgrades to modules.

Just seems FD are saying, if you want to stay competitive, you need to do all this... And by the way, "all this" is basically simplistic unchallenging times-sponge mechanics we've put in just that purpose.

 

[Mephane]

TBH, I wasn't aware of just how "powerful" some of these crafted modules were, as demonstrated above by Mephane...

Given we're talking about modules that are nigh on twice as powerful - ignoring all the balancing issues that creates - there would have to be hurdles for the 2nd Gen CMDR to get stuff like that. My suggestion was geared more towards modules of a more "levelled" approach, where they weren't so obviously "craft to win"

TBH, given I was already deflated by the (simplistic) gameplay and mechanics put in place to "pay" for crafting, but having now started getting an idea of where the "end game" is (with "win" modules), I'm just bit myeh about it all now... Just all seems a very strange set of design choices, both for the strength (or lack of) of the gameplay elements introduced, and also the objective for the game of actually introducing such strong upgrades to modules.

Just seems FD are saying, if you want to stay competitive, you need to do all this... And by the way, "all this" is basically simplistic unchallenging times-sponge mechanics we've put in just that purpose.

It's called a level cap raise in other MMOs.

 

[NeilF]

It's called a level cap raise in other MMOs.

All I know is, if it results in new gameplay being introduced of this depth/nature, ED isn't heading in a direction I hoped it would...

[video=youtube;PIbCFFdbAmI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIbCFFdbAmI[/video]

^^ Yes I know that Wake farming video is somewhat "harsh" but it does capture the nature of much of the gameplay that's been added in (just) to support the cornerstone development of 2.1 (Engineers & crafting).

 

[Weps]

I have no problem with the suggestion, with just one condition: the commander must present the following item when getting a copy:

Wait..

Are we still discussing the suggestion, or are we discussing OP engineer mods with no downsides?

 

[NeilF]

Are we still discussing the suggestion, or are we discussing OP engineer mods with no downsides?

It has been derailed somewhat by the premise that uber modules are apparently on offer. So rather than level 1-5 offering degrees of pros & cons, it seems in some cases, the pros far outweigh the cons, so a level 5 is basically the "must have"...

 

[NeilF]

Or imagine if every stock item already came with random variations in stats and no refunds. You buy a beam laser - oh it has 5% less damage than nominal, throw it away (no refunds!), buy another one. Repeat until satisfied with the stats. Sounds silly? Well that is what engineers do, except we don't just pay universal credits, but have to painstakingly farm very specific combinations of materials.

A nice analogy!



And of course for anyone complaining about the premise of duplicating a crafted weapons like-for-like, and how it shouldn't be possible etc... Consider that next you get to a rebuy screen, and how your crafted modules are all some how regenerated for you 100% identical

 

[Robert Maynard]

And of course for anyone complaining about the premise of duplicating a crafted weapons like-for-like, and how it shouldn't be possible etc... Consider that next you get to a rebuy screen, and how your crafted modules are all some how regenerated for you 100% identical

I did ask the question (that was raised on a live stream) regarding replacement of Engineered modules at the rebuy screen.... Presumably the insurance company has unlimited access to the materials required and can afford to engage the relevant Engineer's time until each module / weapon is created again....

.... the answer was, of course, that we would retain the modifications - I suspect to prevent a revolt from those who would not want to spend the time re-gaining them (but at least they would have expended the effort getting them in the first place).