This thread is in no way designed to tell people how they should play nor does it condone or not condone ganking, piracy and murder, or say someone should not engage in PvP activity and play the way they want. Though my conclusion does pose some questions about game mechanics.
Greetings Commanders,
Having already discussed here on and off for a few years I wanted to look at the crime and punishment system in depth and discuss if it's effective. I decided to do some testing on my 3rd Elite account and in total built up around 40-50 hours play time. I have come to conclusion that the crime and punishment system is fairly well integrated for PvE based activities only and in terms of PvP players are offered little or no protection and the punishments just don't fit the crimes. Being a PvP criminal has no major draw back! For the purpose of the test I built a new save levelled up combat rank gained friendly reputation with Federation and Empire. I did do some trading, bounty hunting and missions to create an "average commander save" I was able to fit out an A rated Cobra Python with some grade 1 to 3 engineering.
PvE Analysis
In my semi engineered Python I engaged in some illegal PvE activity in several systems with HIGH and MEDIUM security aligned with several POWERS and MINOR FACTIONS.
I smuggled and got caught on purpose, I took missions that meant killing targets who were not wanted and I occasionally randomly attacked NPC trade ships or discharged weapons at a station... I even dumped cargo in the mail slot of a station. Very quickly my crime record and galactic fines increased however for a number of hours I could still go about my business with the odd interdiction and scan however in my mid to late game engineered ship I was never really challenged. More just minor inconveniences and frustrations through being sent to detention centres, fines and warnings. I found the biggest drain being rep and unable to take certain missions. I did encounter other players during this period and one or two did try and come after me due to my WANTED status. I hung around the Federation, Empire and Alliance capital and systems in those areas.
In HIGH and MEDIUM systems as my crime record climbed I became unfriendly with the Federation and Empire and was eventually denied access to dock and was seen as a RED target enemy. Though this in no way hindered my ability to see other players, engage with them or attack them (I'll get onto this in the PvP bit).
I was often scanned by police or hunted by NPC bounty hunters. ATR were sometimes involved but to be honest you can always out run them or hold your own. I was still able to travel in these systems but I found generally at notoriety 5 or above things became a challenge. I was eventually forced to use Independent systems for outfitting and repairs.
I consider myself an average to higher skilled combat pilot.
In order to clean my record and drop notoriety I would say it took me 15-20 hours before the Feds and Empire would let me dock again. Repairing rep was simple it was the notoriety tick that was more of a pain. It took around 3-4 hours game play to completely trash myself originally. The financial impact was next to nothing as I could easily trade, mine or take missions in non Fed or Empire systems to make money back. It was more the inconvenience of being unable to dock or getting hunted that caused me issues. I would say however in LOW security systems it took longer for the police/authority to be dangerous enough that I had to retreat a lot. This kind of makes sense.
Crime and punishment doesn't really stop you playing the game nor does it open up any new avenues of play. It would be nice to be offered more smuggling, illegal missions or perhaps get an invite to a locked system for being a bad guy. Frontier could you create a permit locked mafia/crime syndicate based system open to players who have gained 10 notoriety?
PvP Analysis
I think I upset a few people :-D (I am sorry to anyone who I attacked in game)
I decided to find a trade route for my first test used by other commanders in OPEN. Alpha Centauri became my choice of location sorry Hutton Orbital Truckers! Police and authority ships only became a problem in big numbers but I never ever had any problem entering Alpha Alpha Centauri and nothing stopped me as a notoriety WANTED 10 criminal from pulling traders out of supercruise. Seems odd really I'm a huge WANTED criminal but I can still interdict and pew pew people to death... oh well.
Next I camped engineer bases as I've been assault a number of times here myself... I already had a crime record and notoriety at this point that was sustained due to my trade route ganking. I wanted to see if having this status would stop me being able to gank/pirate CMDRs. I picked 2 engineer bases that I thought players would go to most often in OPEN. I hovered around without my weapons deployed and was easily able to avoid NPC scans I don't think many players paid much attention to me even though I was clearly a bad guy. Even with NPC ships flying around I was easily able to engage and shoot other players. I had time to scan people, deploy weapons and open up before anyone could do anything. In a Python most people were able to react but only half I'd say would have stood a chance to fight back, one guy in an explorer ASP literally melted in seconds. Had I been in an FDL for example with engineered heat guns pretty much everyone would be dead before they could do anything.
Just for information I never murdered anyone and left people once hull reached 10% or below. I did message to say I was conducting PvP/PvE crime tests but most people were too angry and I got a lot of swearing from one CMDR... sorry! One guy did fight back and destroyed me he must have enjoyed that bounty. What I did find interesting is even though I had a WANTED rating most players just ignored me and only one or two logged out (not combat log they went before I opened fire)... I guess they went into solo upon seeing me as they dropped into the instance I scanned them then they disappeared.
What we can take from this is there is little to no security or protection at engineer bases. Supercruise is fine BUT I still think HIGH security systems need instant spawning NPC's or some mechanic to give lowvie and newbie commanders a chance. I've no issue with interdiction and crime against players being easier in different security level systems. All HIGH, MEDIUM and LOW means is the number of ships in my opinion this doesn't factor time of response, type of response or anything else.
No matter your crime status and previous record you can literally kill anyone you want unless they are paying huge attention to the scanner or playing in PRIVATE or SOLO. Most players have no chance at all if you're in an engineered ship. Skill cap only matters when you are able to fight back. I'd like to add at no time did any NPC manage to destroy me and the financial aspects of fines and bounties didn't stop me.
I repeated the same tests in a number of systems with various security. I flew around with high notoriety interdicted CMDRs in trade ships and again engaged them and took them down to 10% hull. The response time in supercruise/normal space of NPC's is just too slow to protect anyone.
What do I think "could" be done
This is going to cause a lot of debate but I want Frontier to look at this properly.
1. I personally think engineer bases should be shielded and when you enter a zone all weapons are disabled.
2. In High Security and Medium Security systems NPC's should spawn instantly if you interdict or attack a player. I see high security systems as being like a fortress! There should be a risk reward thing for PvP acts here... maybe the introduction of a mafia/pirate minor faction or system where bad guys can be rewarded for being bad guys but it's permit locked until you are evil enough. At the same time trading in dangerous systems should be more rewarding because NPC's and players can target you.
3. PvP should be easier in anarchy, lawless, low security and those sorts of systems this would actually mean a varying degree of security ratings.
4. CMDRs that are pirates, gankers and murderer should eventually have a marker colour placed on them on the scanner maybe orange or brown. My big issue is you could murder hundreds of players but fly around in a clean ship. Sure you can have a clean record, changed ship or pay fines off but it's far too easy for you to go under the radar.
5. Rebuys for PvP kills should be re-balanced... if getting killed by a player results in a negative balance or being unable to buy back a ship this needs to be adjusted.
I really like the idea of Frontier creating a permit locked crime system for pirates, badbuys and PvPers with criminal records. This system could be locked until you get a notoriety of 10. Once there you get access to crime only missions. For example the black market there could pay extra prices for goods you've nicked from fellow commanders or maybe give high tier materials for player kills you hand in. I think this has a lot of potential but at the same time newbies and lowbies need protection in certain areas. I'm not advocating the removal of PvP I'm just saying balance in certain areas and lets try and get people back in OPEN.
Greetings Commanders,
Having already discussed here on and off for a few years I wanted to look at the crime and punishment system in depth and discuss if it's effective. I decided to do some testing on my 3rd Elite account and in total built up around 40-50 hours play time. I have come to conclusion that the crime and punishment system is fairly well integrated for PvE based activities only and in terms of PvP players are offered little or no protection and the punishments just don't fit the crimes. Being a PvP criminal has no major draw back! For the purpose of the test I built a new save levelled up combat rank gained friendly reputation with Federation and Empire. I did do some trading, bounty hunting and missions to create an "average commander save" I was able to fit out an A rated Cobra Python with some grade 1 to 3 engineering.
PvE Analysis
In my semi engineered Python I engaged in some illegal PvE activity in several systems with HIGH and MEDIUM security aligned with several POWERS and MINOR FACTIONS.
I smuggled and got caught on purpose, I took missions that meant killing targets who were not wanted and I occasionally randomly attacked NPC trade ships or discharged weapons at a station... I even dumped cargo in the mail slot of a station. Very quickly my crime record and galactic fines increased however for a number of hours I could still go about my business with the odd interdiction and scan however in my mid to late game engineered ship I was never really challenged. More just minor inconveniences and frustrations through being sent to detention centres, fines and warnings. I found the biggest drain being rep and unable to take certain missions. I did encounter other players during this period and one or two did try and come after me due to my WANTED status. I hung around the Federation, Empire and Alliance capital and systems in those areas.
In HIGH and MEDIUM systems as my crime record climbed I became unfriendly with the Federation and Empire and was eventually denied access to dock and was seen as a RED target enemy. Though this in no way hindered my ability to see other players, engage with them or attack them (I'll get onto this in the PvP bit).
I was often scanned by police or hunted by NPC bounty hunters. ATR were sometimes involved but to be honest you can always out run them or hold your own. I was still able to travel in these systems but I found generally at notoriety 5 or above things became a challenge. I was eventually forced to use Independent systems for outfitting and repairs.
I consider myself an average to higher skilled combat pilot.
In order to clean my record and drop notoriety I would say it took me 15-20 hours before the Feds and Empire would let me dock again. Repairing rep was simple it was the notoriety tick that was more of a pain. It took around 3-4 hours game play to completely trash myself originally. The financial impact was next to nothing as I could easily trade, mine or take missions in non Fed or Empire systems to make money back. It was more the inconvenience of being unable to dock or getting hunted that caused me issues. I would say however in LOW security systems it took longer for the police/authority to be dangerous enough that I had to retreat a lot. This kind of makes sense.
Crime and punishment doesn't really stop you playing the game nor does it open up any new avenues of play. It would be nice to be offered more smuggling, illegal missions or perhaps get an invite to a locked system for being a bad guy. Frontier could you create a permit locked mafia/crime syndicate based system open to players who have gained 10 notoriety?
PvP Analysis
I think I upset a few people :-D (I am sorry to anyone who I attacked in game)
I decided to find a trade route for my first test used by other commanders in OPEN. Alpha Centauri became my choice of location sorry Hutton Orbital Truckers! Police and authority ships only became a problem in big numbers but I never ever had any problem entering Alpha Alpha Centauri and nothing stopped me as a notoriety WANTED 10 criminal from pulling traders out of supercruise. Seems odd really I'm a huge WANTED criminal but I can still interdict and pew pew people to death... oh well.
Next I camped engineer bases as I've been assault a number of times here myself... I already had a crime record and notoriety at this point that was sustained due to my trade route ganking. I wanted to see if having this status would stop me being able to gank/pirate CMDRs. I picked 2 engineer bases that I thought players would go to most often in OPEN. I hovered around without my weapons deployed and was easily able to avoid NPC scans I don't think many players paid much attention to me even though I was clearly a bad guy. Even with NPC ships flying around I was easily able to engage and shoot other players. I had time to scan people, deploy weapons and open up before anyone could do anything. In a Python most people were able to react but only half I'd say would have stood a chance to fight back, one guy in an explorer ASP literally melted in seconds. Had I been in an FDL for example with engineered heat guns pretty much everyone would be dead before they could do anything.
Just for information I never murdered anyone and left people once hull reached 10% or below. I did message to say I was conducting PvP/PvE crime tests but most people were too angry and I got a lot of swearing from one CMDR... sorry! One guy did fight back and destroyed me he must have enjoyed that bounty. What I did find interesting is even though I had a WANTED rating most players just ignored me and only one or two logged out (not combat log they went before I opened fire)... I guess they went into solo upon seeing me as they dropped into the instance I scanned them then they disappeared.
What we can take from this is there is little to no security or protection at engineer bases. Supercruise is fine BUT I still think HIGH security systems need instant spawning NPC's or some mechanic to give lowvie and newbie commanders a chance. I've no issue with interdiction and crime against players being easier in different security level systems. All HIGH, MEDIUM and LOW means is the number of ships in my opinion this doesn't factor time of response, type of response or anything else.
No matter your crime status and previous record you can literally kill anyone you want unless they are paying huge attention to the scanner or playing in PRIVATE or SOLO. Most players have no chance at all if you're in an engineered ship. Skill cap only matters when you are able to fight back. I'd like to add at no time did any NPC manage to destroy me and the financial aspects of fines and bounties didn't stop me.
I repeated the same tests in a number of systems with various security. I flew around with high notoriety interdicted CMDRs in trade ships and again engaged them and took them down to 10% hull. The response time in supercruise/normal space of NPC's is just too slow to protect anyone.
What do I think "could" be done
This is going to cause a lot of debate but I want Frontier to look at this properly.
1. I personally think engineer bases should be shielded and when you enter a zone all weapons are disabled.
2. In High Security and Medium Security systems NPC's should spawn instantly if you interdict or attack a player. I see high security systems as being like a fortress! There should be a risk reward thing for PvP acts here... maybe the introduction of a mafia/pirate minor faction or system where bad guys can be rewarded for being bad guys but it's permit locked until you are evil enough. At the same time trading in dangerous systems should be more rewarding because NPC's and players can target you.
3. PvP should be easier in anarchy, lawless, low security and those sorts of systems this would actually mean a varying degree of security ratings.
4. CMDRs that are pirates, gankers and murderer should eventually have a marker colour placed on them on the scanner maybe orange or brown. My big issue is you could murder hundreds of players but fly around in a clean ship. Sure you can have a clean record, changed ship or pay fines off but it's far too easy for you to go under the radar.
5. Rebuys for PvP kills should be re-balanced... if getting killed by a player results in a negative balance or being unable to buy back a ship this needs to be adjusted.
I really like the idea of Frontier creating a permit locked crime system for pirates, badbuys and PvPers with criminal records. This system could be locked until you get a notoriety of 10. Once there you get access to crime only missions. For example the black market there could pay extra prices for goods you've nicked from fellow commanders or maybe give high tier materials for player kills you hand in. I think this has a lot of potential but at the same time newbies and lowbies need protection in certain areas. I'm not advocating the removal of PvP I'm just saying balance in certain areas and lets try and get people back in OPEN.
