Crime/Punishment System

I know you are looking at this but I am late to the party and was unable to provide input. But I have now had three incidents that just make me want to quit the game altogether. Today's issue is not the "final straw" but I am coming closer to that point. I may just bow out until your C&P updates are delivered.

First Issue
Bought myself a spanking new Type 9. Proceeded to get it stuck in the mail slot of a starport and was blown up as a result: not a problem, I get it. Although fining me on top of the 10 Mil I had to pay was just adding insult to injury. But I had no idea, after having to pay $10 Mill to rebuy my ship and whatever thousands for fines, that I now had a bounty on my head. I was 'reincarnated' back at the last base I had docked and I proceeded to launch and go back to the system where my incident occurred where I was promptly destroyed. That was the moment when I seriously considered quitting this game permanently. That is complete baloney. You made me pay a huge amount for getting my ship stuck and subsequently blown up (I am ok with that), you then made me pay fines as part of my rebuy process (fine with that too) - so why the hell should I have a bounty that leads to getting blown up again for no good cause?

Second Issue
I subsequently purchased a spanking new Anaconda. I visited a planetary base. I had heard you could exit to your SRV at a base, which I did. I drove around (how cool!). I apparently went somewhere I was not supposed to and received a fine (I never saw any 'do not enter' signs however). No worries, I'll just leave. But no! I must have then went into another area and now I have two fines. I am doing my best to get back to where I came from in my SRV but then things start shooting at me. Oh well, I can deal with that. Just drive faster. I get back to where I had come from but I don't have the option to get back in my ship. I then see that my ship must have flown away so I call it back. But then a Goliath has me cornered and is shooting at me: I shoot back to no avail. I then make a run for it to my ship. Long story short, I get to my ship and then the base blows it up costing me $20 Mil. Frak that. That is ridiculous. I get the fines (maybe I missed the no trespass signs). But to blow up a ship over this in the end is just too much. This time I REALLY considered quitting the game for good.

**I want to state that I am not against fines and punishment. But the game is taking it too far for the crime committed. Heavy fines are enough unless the action threatens gameplay (such as my ship getting stuck in the mailslot). Both of these situations were honest errors that result in obscene results. And people can argue that "them's the rules" - fine. Then I'll take my money and my time and go play a more balanced game. It's that simple. This should be fun. The obscene ends both of these scenarios came to were not fun and they were excessive in the extreme. The equivalent of execution for littering.


Third Issue
Why isn't interdicting someone who has no warrant/bounty a crime? I was just interdicted by some idiot (human, not NPC). When I came out of hyperspace in my Anaconda I exercised restraint (when I wanted to blow the idiot up), as I couldn't bring myself to shoot a sidewinder. I waited and he did not shoot. At one point I saw "hyperspace engines activated" or something like that, so I thought he was running and that was the end of that. But he did not jump and the next thing I see is he is texting me saying "Stop UR Ship". That was it, I blew the little turd up. Now *I* am the one with a huge bounty on me head that I can't seem to find a way to clear. I was peacefully participating in the Community Goal when this idiot pulled his stunt and now I can't do so any more. This sucks. Why was he not instantly placed with a bounty for having pulled an innocent out of hyperspace? Instead the victim gets the bounty for this.

Please fix this stuff - this is too much and it is killing the game for me. I love the concept of this game (I only came to know of it in the last 4 months) and i have voted with my $ by purchasing most everything in your virtual store. But these issues will be the death of my relationship with this game. Just dial it back by about 40%-60% - punish me for my stupidity but don't drive me to leave the game.

BTW, I am on the PS4 and after hundreds of hours of gameplay we have witnessed a couple of pervasive bugs. I reported one of them on your bug report board but next thing I get is they want me to prove the issue. The game is playable but, the bugs we have witnessed appear to be memory-leaks as many of them only result after extended play. We play for 3-4 hours and then exit the game and go back in to clear the symptoms. I kindly request that someone do some extended play testing on the PS4 version as the issues can't be missed.



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I know this is suggestion section so I want to bring my ranting/whining to a point:
  • I want actions and consequences - but currently it is heavy handed. I'd ask that you consider my words
  • As for the turd who pulled me from hyperspace, it is my opinion that attempting to pull anyone from hyperspace who does not have a bounty already on their head should be a criminal act. At the very least, if you are not going to do it on the attempt, at least make the act of actually pulling it off criminal.

I am not asking that the game be easy, and I do want emergent gameplay. That is why play in the Open. But until today I had no idea that pulling someone from hyperspace, who had no bounty, was not a criminal act. I believe this was likely someone young, who was looking for a friend to play with (I suspect anyway). But the way to do that is to hang out at a starport and talk to people as they arrive or leave (or via the forums), not to pull them from hyperspace. Hopefully I saved others from having to deal with such rudeness when I shot this person down. Hopefully they will think better of doing the same again in the future.

And finally, I am not all-knowing, and perhaps there are aspects here of which I am unaware. I welcome any insights that might help 'bring balance to the Force' for me :)
 
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Issue 3 is a crime, I'm betting you have report crimes against me switched off & he had his switched on. Let the little guy fire on you when you have "Report Crimes Against Me" switched on then they will get an assault bounty & you can legally blow them up. Unfortunately you either didn't have this on or didn't wait for them to fire the first shot - hence how you got the bounty.

Issue 2: If this was any base you can land at you must not drive on or near the landing pads - they don't like that hence how you got the fines & then bounty & then killed.

Issue 1: You ended up with a dormant bounty because bounties cannot be claimed, stay away from that system until the dormant bounty expires & turns into a fine, it really is that simple.
 
First Issue
Bought myself a spanking new Type 9. Proceeded to get it stuck in the mail slot of a starport and was blown up as a result: not a problem, I get it. Although fining me on top of the 10 Mil I had to pay was just adding insult to injury. But I had no idea, after having to pay $10 Mill to rebuy my ship and whatever thousands for fines, that I now had a bounty on my head. I was 'reincarnated' back at the last base I had docked and I proceeded to launch and go back to the system where my incident occurred where I was promptly destroyed. That was the moment when I seriously considered quitting this game permanently. That is complete baloney. You made me pay a huge amount for getting my ship stuck and subsequently blown up (I am ok with that), you then made me pay fines as part of my rebuy process (fine with that too) - so why the hell should I have a bounty that leads to getting blown up again for no good cause?


Some tips when flying around in the big ships, you will get stuck, and flung around etc all over the station, and ending up in situations that are bad. And as soon as you have realised that you are stuck, do not try to solve it, bring up menu and choose "exit to menu", this will in almost every case, bring you directly to the game menu and you can now log back in, and you should now be safely OUTSIDE the station, and if you get stuck trying to land, you get another fresh chance at it.
Also the big ships can get stuck in many ways, and one way to figure out what went wrong, is to to use the EXTERNAL camera. I'm not saying to fly in external camera mode, but to have a look around. So even if you cannot solve the issue of being stuck, you can always exit to the menu, and perhaps you have a better understanding on what was wrong and try to avoid it the next time.

Type 9, you are sitting in front of the rest of the ship, so you have LOTS of ship behind you... so quite easy to get stuck in the slot
Anaconda, have a huge belly that will hit the slot. But most of the ship is in front of you
Corvette, is very wide, if you are used to Anaconda, so you are going to hit the side in the slot... most of the ship in front of you.
Beluga, Same at Type 9, plus BIG FINS at the far back... you will get STUCK!
Cutter, two huge wings, to wrap around stuff most of the ship behind you!


So exit to menu, should save you from the station firing at you for getting stuck... Practice this a few time in Solo. as this is a very handy way to overcome these kind of issues, and sometimes the stations goes bonkers and despite you doing everything right, the game messes up and you are doomed.

Second Issue
I subsequently purchased a spanking new Anaconda. I visited a planetary base. I had heard you could exit to your SRV at a base, which I did. I drove around (how cool!). I apparently went somewhere I was not supposed to and received a fine (I never saw any 'do not enter' signs however). No worries, I'll just leave. But no! I must have then went into another area and now I have two fines. I am doing my best to get back to where I came from in my SRV but then things start shooting at me. Oh well, I can deal with that. Just drive faster. I get back to where I had come from but I don't have the option to get back in my ship. I then see that my ship must have flown away so I call it back. But then a Goliath has me cornered and is shooting at me: I shoot back to no avail. I then make a run for it to my ship. Long story short, I get to my ship and then the base blows it up costing me $20 Mil. Frak that. That is ridiculous. I get the fines (maybe I missed the no trespass signs). But to blow up a ship over this in the end is just too much. This time I REALLY considered quitting the game for good.


You get a trespass warning message, and your radar shows a red area where you will be trespassing at. You radar can zoom in/out.

To enter your ship that has landed as a base, you have to ask for docking permissions, even if you are returning in your SRV to a docked ship.

So you get wanted and the security is shooting at you, avoid the base where you are wanted. Head out from the the base, find a nice empty space out of sight from the base, and recall your ship, and then it should arrive without getting destroyed. and you can dock your SRV and fly off.

The fines for trespassing alone is not that problematic to get rid of, but if you shoots back and kills skimmers, then you get a weeks bounty...


Third Issue
Why isn't interdicting someone who has no warrant/bounty a crime? I was just interdicted by some idiot (human, not NPC). When I came out of hyperspace in my Anaconda I exercised restraint (when I wanted to blow the idiot up), as I couldn't bring myself to shoot a sidewinder. I waited and he did not shoot. At one point I saw "hyperspace engines activated" or something like that, so I thought he was running and that was the end of that. But he did not jump and the next thing I see is he is texting me saying "Stop UR Ship". That was it, I blew the little turd up. Now *I* am the one with a huge bounty on me head that I can't seem to find a way to clear. I was peacefully participating in the Community Goal when this idiot pulled his stunt and now I can't do so any more. This sucks. Why was he not instantly placed with a bounty for having pulled an innocent out of hyperspace? Instead the victim gets the bounty for this.

Killing is another CMDR that is NOT wanted, will always put a bounty on your head. Pulling someone out of super cruise is making anyone getting wanted. But shooting at a player that is not identified as being wanted will make you wanted. Certain players turn off report crimes, and in those cases, shooting at those will not make you wanted, special case, do not assume this.

So what you should have done, was to simply leave, enter super cruise again (low wake), or jump to an adjacent system (high wake) and then jump back. If you low wake, there is a possibility that the other player will follow you and repeat the interdiction.


There are two ways to manage getting interdicted on.
1. Fight and win the interdiction, you stay in supercruise and the other player/ship drops to normal space.
2. Fight and loose the interdiction, you pulled into normal space and have now a long cool down on your FSD.
3. Submit and you are pulled into normal space and have now a short cool down on your FSD, where the other party has a long cool down on their FSD

I usually do Option 3, as soon as I get into normal space, I just floor it, in whatever direction I'm facing. 4 pips to ENG, 2 pips to SYS, and boost, boost, untill FSD is ready to engage. Just engage to Low wake, or if you had the time to select another system, High wake, you have plenty of time to turn the ship towards the destination.

If you they are shooting at you, change to 4 PIPS to SYS (which leave 2 PIPS to ENG), this makes your shields stronger.

If you are in a smaller ship that then other ship, High wake, as they cannot use their mass slow down your FSD, unless you are much faster, then they cannot keep up with you, Cutter are very fast for a big ship. Anaconda not so fast.





Ignore the the bad voice, but this video show you how to deal with getting interdicted. Especially in those cases where you do not want or can't fight back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh9AWV_BWo0




Not all of this 100% accurate.
All bounties have a time, and when that time has passed, they became dormant bounties, and can be paid of. A dormant bounty can be make active again by getting scanned by a Kill Warrant scanner.
Minor stuff that cases Bounties only last a few minutes. Repeatedly doing these things increase the bounty and time it lasts. Most minor things only last 5-10 minutes, and becomes a fine when you jump to another system (H-jump), and your wanted status for that bounty is removed. Fines will not make you wanted.
Killing give you the longest bounty.
Fines can be paid of at any station where the faction that gave the fine is present. Or use the Interstellar people that can for a fee pay fines to factions that is not present at this station. The same function allows you turn in bounties, also at a fee.
 
To MickyG192 and Misty_Dark thank you for your responses. I know now what to do in each of these cases. But my point is that these situations should not be. For items 1 and 2, the end result was not equitable to the offense. Can I avoid it now? Sure. But the results of those actions did not fit the crime. For item #1, there should have been no bounty after I was blown up the first time - enough 'penance' had been made (imho). For item #2, blowing up my ship was not equitable for what had unfolded.

For item #3, I had 'report crimes against me' turned on (I always leave it on). The other commander did not shoot me. My point here is that the act of interdicting someone without a bounty should have been a crime and I should have been able to shoot him at will after he interdicted me. 1) He interdicted me. 2) I had 'report crimes against me on'. 3) I did subsequently scan him and it did not say that he was wanted. 4) Yes, I could have run (and I was willing to let him run) but in the end, as he persisted, I felt teaching him some manners was better for everyone he would meet later. But now, I can't play ED for the next 6 days without getting shot - and my s.o.p. is to mind my own business and play friendly. I was not looking for trouble and had not been causing any. I did subsequently find both a lawless system and a system in anarchy, and neither gave me the ability to clear my bounties. IMHO this is all just wrong, and the key miss is that he should have been 'wanted' when he pulled me from hyperspace without cause. It's akin to slapping people in the face as you walk down the sidewalk, just so you can start a conversation. They would be arrested, and so should have been this commander. I should not have been slapped with a bounty for what I did. I know how the sim works (now) - my post is to say that it should not be working this way. For item #3, it's simple, make it a crime to pull someone from hyperspace unless the person/npc you pull is 'wanted'.
 
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There's a conflict here which means Frontier can't possibly make a C&P system which will satisfy you.

Case 1, agreed - the "dormant bounty" mechanism is a complete mess and doesn't really achieve what it's supposed to. I think it's going away in the new plans, at least.

Case 2 and Case 3, however: in case 2, you wanted a crime you committed to not result in ship destruction. Trespass has to be a bounty rather than a fine, or it would basically be entirely ignored ... so therefore you're at risk of being shot up for doing it. Sure, it was a small bounty, but the game doesn't distinguish between large and small bounties when determining valid targets.

In case 3, you wanted something which wasn't a crime to become a crime so that you could blow up the other person with without consequences. If interdiction is made a crime then it's only going to give a token bounty like the assault one. So you'd then be able to destroy an opposing ship with a tiny (<1000 Cr) bounty.

You can't have both - it can't be wrong for the game to destroy your ship over a 500 Cr bounty, but right for you to be able to destroy someone else's Sidewinder for the same sort of bounty. If a bit of minor trespass shouldn't result in ship destruction, than neither should a bit of minor interdiction.
 
sadly, FDEV have currently only one response by security for being wanted and being spotted by security, kill on sight....


Lets see what their new suggested Crime and Punishment will bring to the table.


As for interdiction, was a long time since I used it, but you get a fine for doing it. But you are totally correct that interdicting non wanted ship should make you wanted in normal systems (that has Security forces present) , Anarchy systems have no laws...
 
I thank you for your thoughtful reply. It did give me pause. But there is a major difference here. One was an accidental trespass and the other was willful. I realize ED can't tell my intent but we know that interdictions do not happen by accident. As for the trespass - I was NEVER on a pad. Perhaps I was near one, I am not certain - but I was on a driveway, not a pad.

It's not that I wanted to blow up the interdictor (I did, but held my fire until he proved totally daft). IF I was blocking a pad, then absolutely go ahead and blow me up. But there are WAYYYYYY better ways of handling this. for example, if you are blocking a pad and do not move, blow me up. But if I get off the pad/area of trespass then leave me with a fine - make it a hefty fine if you must. And if I do not pay within a reasonable time, issue a warrant for me. That's another thing I don't understand about this game - why don't we give people time to pay fines and then, if they don't, they become targets? Instead it's the other way around: litter and we'll kill you unless you can disappear for 6 minute or 7 days, and then we'll forgive and just let you pay.

Nothing in this game feels equitable. It's a beautiful looking game with many mechanics - but balance is not right on crime and punishment. I did not deliberately trespass. Nor, until I was cornered and things were giving me no choice, did I shoot back at the sentinels. I simply made an apparent wrong turn. And let's look at what I do now: I will no longer use the Type 9 (I just do not need the grief). I will no longer get into my SRV at a base. Because i never understood what I did so I can;t figure out how to avoid it - therefore I avoid those scenarios altogether. Is that what the designers want? Really?

I realize I know my intent and the game did not - but there should be safeguards so that those who did not intend a thing can remedy it before all hellfire breaks out. When I was told I was trespassing the first (and last) thing I tried to do was remedy it. But that was not good enough. The game could not give me the time to remedy and escalated it to a firing match before I could retreat. If I meant to trespass, please shoot me at will. But my intent should be determined by a reasonable duration of time. I was not given that time. From the moment I was told I trespassed, until I was fired upon, was less than 20 seconds. I could not figure out how to get out of the trespass area in that time window.

As for the jerk that interdicted me: you do not unknowingly interdict someone. If you choose to interdict, you take the consequences of a knowingly willful act. Doesn't matter the duration - you chose to interdict and there is no 'accidental interdicting'.

In the end, as the game is designed now, I agree with you as to the relatio ship between these things because the game can not know that I accidentally trespassed. But, the interdictor should have been made 'wanted' and I should have had more time to remedy my trespass than I did. Also, when I did eventually exit the trespass area, why not just leave me with a fine? (I had not shot back at that point) In fact, why doesn't the fine grow exponentially the longer you are in the trespass area? Then, when I leave I have a major fine if I lingered (time in trespass zone determined intent - a poor measure but short of mind reading the best we're going to get. But once departed it is a fine unless not paid within a reasonable time and then you are a wanted commander.

I realize this stuff is complicated and for every idea there is a counter. But here's the simple truth: I meant no harm, tried to remedy right away, and came to excessively grievous consequences. My whining aside, what this resilts in is people not wanting to play the game. I am only one person and have not done a poll - but I don't think I am wrong to say that this would cause many people to say "is this the game I really want to spend tens/hundreds of hours with?". As it stands now, I can;t play ED for a week, so I am going back to The Division. This is not a punitive measure towards ED/FD - I just am not going to dodge bullets for a week to accomplish nothing significant. The Division recently released a major patch and I have been curious to look into it. It is not my intent to not come back to ED but, whether I do or not will have been influenced by these three events. I am not asking for anything here. I am sharing my perspective. In my opinion, things are broke that I could experience these things knowing my intent. I do not ask that all be fair - and I don't mind that a game universe not operate like the real world. But, in the end, these three events have significantly lessened my pleasure with spending time in this game and the question has arisen now three times as to whether I really want to invest more time. Perhaps I am a wussie. Maybe. Then I suppose I should go find wussie games instead. (and I genuinely lay that on the table as an possible fact and option). But I have so far chosen to believe that it is not the designer's intent for such things to happen. Or perhaps these things must happen because if they did not then other game mechanics would break. I don't know. I am just a player who is frustrated and wants to take my marbles and go play a game with someone else; a game I hope will be equitable and balanced. My unhappiness of these incidents is the only fact I know to be true beyond dispute. My post was to share my perspective with the developers in the hopes that changes might be coming.

I did not mind losing my first Type 9. I did not mind so much being shot at in my SRV and possibly having the SRV destroyed. I did not mind the fines (altough after the consequences with ship destruction the fines seem more insulting that meaningful). I did mind the second Type 9 destruction, and the destruction of my Anaconda. I am ok with the idiot who pulled me from hyperspace - but he should have been fined for an aggressive act. Perhaps my decision to shoot him down was ill advised but it wast he right thing to do to ensure he thought twice before interdicting the next fellow with whom he wanted to chat.

And you say the game cannot tell teh difference between a small fine and a big one. Well why not? I accept that it does not do so now - but anything is possible in these games - it just needs to be thought through and confirmed good/bad asa design decision.

The system in which I was interdicted had Medium security. All I can say ist hat after the interdiction I scanned him and he showed as CLEAN. (and I did have 'report crimes against me' turned on).

It's the first time I have been interdicted by a human so I have nothing to compare/contrast against.
 
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I've always had a pretty easy time ducking Wanted status in a system: Get about 10km out from a station, line up with the slot, roar in at full throttle (request docking of course), and drop landing gear and full reverse as you pass the slot. Once inside you won't get scanned and consequently shot at. Bounce to a Sidewinder, exit, get blown up, rebuy, and pay your fine. Swap back to your other ship and move on.

The crime and punishment system is pretty heavy handed for minor infractions. I've accidentally put a few rounds into friendlies (Fed agents/authorities) time to time during bounty hunting; the whole sensor plot turns red damn near. No warning, no hold your fire, just the NPCs wanting my blood for what amounts to a peanuts fine. (Of course PvP allows for players to get away with relative murder towards each other for next to nothing.)
 
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