Crowdfunding expansions discussion

[CaptainSodom]

The KS campaign and numerous updates and interviews have shown that FD is keen on creating expansions, and I'm sure everyone here is eager to get them. It is unclear at this moment how these are to be funded.

Let's take player-flown capital ships as an example of a potential expansion pack. Cutters - the smallest capital ship type - have been kinda confirmed to be available sometime in the future for players with enough rep. Models for some ships have been already created, but there is a lot of work to do in interior modeling, creating an entirely new set of ship modules, balancing gameplay, testing, etc. This requires funding.

Instead of relying entirely on retail sales, or on microtransactions, advertising or cash-for-credits, it is worthwhile to consider new round(s) of crowdfunding. Practically all of us here took part in crowdfunding on KS or on FD site, so it would be a natural thing to do.

Some will have objections, of course. Some will be wary of a new campaign for a game that already was crowdfunded. But we have to remember that most of us did not pay for expansions. It should be clear to everyone that monies from higher tier "free" expansions aren't nearly enough to cover the costs of making such expansions.

We also would be backing a clearly distinct expansions, ones that were not part of the KS campaign promise, or launch feature set. Of course the campaign would be optional, and players would be free to buy the expansions separately, or get them for free for those who backed at that level.

What's in it for us? We could get more cool and limited stuff. We would get more word of mouth, which means more players, which means more funding for FD, and more features, more resources to kill bugs, etc.

The crowdfunding campaign could be on KS, for a reasonably smaller amount than the original KS campaign. Given the generous nature of many E: D fans, there should be a generous number of stretch goals. A well-funded company makes for happy devs, which makes for better games, and warms and fuzzies all around.

 

[Vikinger]

If the further development would come to an halt, after release, due to financial issue, I would be more than happy to participate in "expansions" kickstarter pledge.

 

[chris5281]

The KS campaign and numerous updates and interviews have shown that FD is keen on creating expansions, and I'm sure everyone here is eager to get them. It is unclear at this moment how these are to be funded.

By people paying for them? With money? Like there is an option to do right now, by buying the expansion pass?

 

[kvmetternich]

A large part of the backers already founded the expansions...anyways I'm confident that ED will have a huge success

 

[RikonGB]

Another option may be an optional subscription system,
This would allow people who want to help FD fund the project a way to do it without creating a crowdfunding campaign.

This subscription could give subscribers a bonus, such as special title, vanity items, colour schemes or skins for ships etc.

Any other in game bonuses towards prices would make things unbalanced against non subscribers.

 

[koffieslikker]

Another option may be an optional subscription system,
This would allow people who want to help FD fund the project a way to do it without creating a crowdfunding campaign.

This subscription could give subscribers a bonus, such as special title, vanity items, colour schemes or skins for ships etc.

Any other in game bonuses towards prices would make things unbalanced against non subscribers.

No, I was hoping custom painting would be free and standard. It wouldn't be bragging as you rarely see someone else's ship up close, but more of making the ship your own. Aside from that, should FD ever need a bit of cash to push the next update, I'll gladly help them.

 

[CaptainSodom]

By people paying for them? With money? Like there is an option to do right now, by buying the expansion pass?

Roughly 19k out of 25k KS backers paid for tiers which do not include expansions. The funds from the 6k people who did are likely not enough to cover expansions, as such tiers include many more rewards than just expansions.

Of course some funding will be done via selling the expansions themselves. The problem with that approach is that you only get the funds after you've already put in the hours and dedicated resources to it. The funding needs to arrive before the expansion is released to pay for salaries, rent, electricity, etc.

Traditionally this is done by investors, a publisher, or loans. Nowadays crowdfunding can supplement or replace those, and offer unprecented freedom for the dev who'd otherwise be required to meet the demands of a publisher (box-ticking exercises, catering to the lowest common denominator). With crowdfunding FD could remain independent, get valuable feedback from us players, and deliver the expansions we all want - not what some publisher thinks might sell a few more boxes at the possible cost of alienating us long-term backers with unnecessary tacked-on features.

So the reasons for running a crowdfunded expansion campaign(s) would be exactly the same as for the initial KS campaign.

 

[Titus Balls]

Roughly 19k out of 25k KS backers paid for tiers which do not include expansions. The funds from the 6k people who did are likely not enough to cover expansions, as such tiers include many more rewards than just expansions.

Of course some funding will be done via selling the expansions themselves. The problem with that approach is that you only get the funds after you've already put in the hours and dedicated resources to it. The funding needs to arrive before the expansion is released to pay for salaries, rent, electricity, etc.

Traditionally this is done by investors, a publisher, or loans. Nowadays crowdfunding can supplement or replace those, and offer unprecented freedom for the dev who'd otherwise be required to meet the demands of a publisher (box-ticking exercises, catering to the lowest common denominator). With crowdfunding FD could remain independent, get valuable feedback from us players, and deliver the expansions we all want - not what some publisher thinks might sell a few more boxes at the possible cost of alienating us long-term backers with unnecessary tacked-on features.

So the reasons for running a crowdfunded expansion campaign(s) would be exactly the same as for the initial KS campaign.

The great thing is for Planetary Landings at least is the hard work has been done - the Cobra Engine powers Zoo Tycoon and has a lot of the features to do the planet surfaces, flora and fauna and buildings. Of course they need to integrate it into the ED procedural universe and probably do a lot of testing, but it means the job is cut in half.

As for other expansions I suppose we'll have to wait and see.

 

[StabbedBadger]

If the further development would come to an halt, after release, due to financial issue, I would be more than happy to participate in "expansions" kickstarter pledge.

I would second that even though I already paid for the expansion pass. I'm keen to support the development of ED as much as possible and if that means I part with a little more cash in return for quality content, I'm all for it.

 

[chris5281]

Roughly 19k out of 25k KS backers paid for tiers which do not include expansions. The funds from the 6k people who did are likely not enough to cover expansions, as such tiers include many more rewards than just expansions.

But the means for buying those expansions is still currently available! Some fraction of that 19K have undoubtedly since upgraded. Many more will presumably do so as we get closer to the release date and more information is released on content.

Of course some funding will be done via selling the expansions themselves. The problem with that approach is that you only get the funds after you've already put in the hours and dedicated resources to it. The funding needs to arrive before the expansion is released to pay for salaries, rent, electricity, etc.

That's not true. As you have pointed out yourself, 6K+ people have already paid for expansions before any work has been done on them.

Traditionally this is done by investors, a publisher, or loans.

Traditionally this is done using a fraction of the profit from selling the base game.

So the reasons for running a crowdfunded expansion campaign(s) would be exactly the same as for the initial KS campaign.

Except for the fact that anyone who wants to pay for the expansions in advance has done so already! And anyone who was late to the party can do so right now, if they want to!

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You know that actual number of backers are around 60k at this point? And I expect lot of them being upgraded to premium beta, or at least shell out for expansion pass, as it is cheaper than it was during KS.

Also if people would wait for events to unfold before jumping to conclusions about what will happen or not.

 

[Viajero]

Is not a part of the actual current funds going to be utilized for expansions?

I mean, has it been confirmed somewhere by FD that any current funding exisiting prior to release is solely to be dedicated to the vanilla game or some such?

Plus, expansions themselves will have their own price tag. Question is how much funds would FD need to initiate those projects formally.

 

[jinja]

The KS campaign and numerous updates and interviews have shown that FD is keen on creating expansions, and I'm sure everyone here is eager to get them. It is unclear at this moment how these are to be funded.
...

By people paying for them? With money? Like there is an option to do right now, by buying the expansion pass?

Agree, the money players pay to buy expansions should be a good way to, erm... 'fund' them.

 

[chris5281]

There is an awful lot of fretting on this board about Frontier's level of funding. It's quite funny: on external boards there are a lot of posts along the lines of 'Elite alpha/beta is way too expensive'. On here it's more like 'oh no! We're not giving Frontier enough money!'

I shouldn't worry about it, I'm sure they have people who are working to ensure that the game is as profitable as possible. I'm sure the price of the expansion pass was chosen such that it makes Frontier a profit rather than drive the company into bankrupcy.

As with any game though, the number of expansions and their scope will inevitably depend on how successful the game is once it is launched.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Is not part of the actual current funds going to be utilized for expansions?

I mean, has it been confirmed somewhere by FD that any current funding exisiting prior to release is solely to be dedicated to the vanilla game or some such?

They don't have to confirm anything. They have just to deliver on their crowdfunding promises - which is deliver game as described, and deliver on stretch goals as described (25 ships and Mac version).

I would like to point out that original ED KS promise didn't include expansions, they just said that with pledging 85 pounds and more you will get access to them. *However* they have been taking pre-orders for expansion pass for 6 months now, so it's entirely different - that's actual promise to deliver product in form of expansions.

So nutshell is no one cares how money is split up - all FD has to do is deliver on promises - both on pre-order and during crowdfunding period.

 

[Asmodi]

Not sure what your background is OP but to me you sound like a market tester for FD putting the feelers out to see if more things can be funded via KS or Micro transactions.
Possibly the figures have been worse than initially thought and now more funding has to be sought to make future expansions a reality.

I could be 100% wrong here but I don't think I am.

The Alpha and Premium Beta backers so far have already paid for their expansions up front.

Its up to FD how they supply them. Its not up to the community to keep pumping money in to this so we get them. We have already paid its now time for FD to deliver. That may sound harsh but that is the reality.

I believe you will find that there is very clear KS rules and even more clear Trading Standards rules about these things.

I wrote a post about my fears of this becoming another "Pay to Win" game and was slaughtered because of it.

What I now see is more and more people asking questions about these things now that the initial hype is over.

As far as I was concerned (regardless of what the Lord David said) this was always going to become a pay to win game. I honestly could not see any other way to make it work if they were not going to do subscriptions.

People quote "But there is 60k backers", 60k backers is a piddly amount and wont keep this game going.

Ultimately these are questions for the future though. FD have promised free expansions to backers of a certain level and if they don't deliver then there will be recourse so the fact that these promises have been made makes me believe there was already plans in place to fund these (ie: through micro transactions aka Pay to win).

Clarify: I am not against pay to win / Progress. I think its a legitimate business model and if people are happy to use their hard earned cash or as it seems on most forums benefit money on ingame things then that is their choice.

 

[Asmodi]

Agree, the money players pay to buy expansions should be a good way to, erm... 'fund' them.

That wont fund them.
You have 60k backers just now. So lets say 250k when game is released.
After 4 months you will have circa 80 to 100k regular players.
Expansion will cost say £30.
So lets say 80k x £30 = £2.4 million.

That wont fund an expansion.

 

[Alric]

It's certainly something that concerns me a bit. Whatever they have to do to satisfy commitments is much less important to me than what it takes to do these things exceptionally well and with long-term commitment.

I have every faith in FDs drive and integrity as I'm sure we all do. But to keep a lot of very talented people working on something long term, it has to make money. The expansion passes mean this won't happen from a lot of us, unless the expansions are really limited.

Hopefully, there will be a lot more sales of the game in the future. And if the live game is monetised some how, that would also help justify great expansions.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Not sure what your background is OP but to me you sound like a market tester for FD putting the feelers out to see if more things can be funded via KS or Micro transactions.
Possibly the figures have been worse than initially thought and now more funding has to be sought to make future expansions a reality.

I could be 100% wrong here but I don't think I am.

The Alpha and Premium Beta backers so far have already paid for their expansions up front.

Its up to FD how they supply them. Its not up to the community to keep pumping money in to this so we get them. We have already paid its now time for FD to deliver. That may sound harsh but that is the reality.

I believe you will find that there is very clear KS rules and even more clear Trading Standards rules about these things.

I wrote a post about my fears of this becoming another "Pay to Win" game and was slaughtered because of it.

What I now see is more and more people asking questions about these things now that the initial hype is over.

Hype? There has no been hype to speak of. Current playing price is real cool off, it's still in testing phase, it's exposure is very small yet growing...People, please, I know you have valid concerns about "will ED succeed" and "will be there MT", but at least wait till gamma. If you are worried and don't want to support something like MT, wait till retail release and after that before shelling out.

And yes, I agree, FD have to deliver expansions without additional KS. And knowing FD, it seems they really think they can do that. Otherwise they wouldn't be giving preorder option for it.

 

[Ramireza]

The KS campaign and numerous updates and interviews have shown that FD is keen on creating expansions, and I'm sure everyone here is eager to get them. It is unclear at this moment how these are to be funded.

Let's take player-flown capital ships as an example of a potential expansion pack. Cutters - the smallest capital ship type - have been kinda confirmed to be available sometime in the future for players with enough rep. Models for some ships have been already created, but there is a lot of work to do in interior modeling, creating an entirely new set of ship modules, balancing gameplay, testing, etc. This requires funding.

Instead of relying entirely on retail sales, or on microtransactions, advertising or cash-for-credits, it is worthwhile to consider new round(s) of crowdfunding. Practically all of us here took part in crowdfunding on KS or on FD site, so it would be a natural thing to do.

Some will have objections, of course. Some will be wary of a new campaign for a game that already was crowdfunded. But we have to remember that most of us did not pay for expansions. It should be clear to everyone that monies from higher tier "free" expansions aren't nearly enough to cover the costs of making such expansions.

We also would be backing a clearly distinct expansions, ones that were not part of the KS campaign promise, or launch feature set. Of course the campaign would be optional, and players would be free to buy the expansions separately, or get them for free for those who backed at that level.

What's in it for us? We could get more cool and limited stuff. We would get more word of mouth, which means more players, which means more funding for FD, and more features, more resources to kill bugs, etc.

The crowdfunding campaign could be on KS, for a reasonably smaller amount than the original KS campaign. Given the generous nature of many E: D fans, there should be a generous number of stretch goals. A well-funded company makes for happy devs, which makes for better games, and warms and fuzzies all around.

I think the answer is easy : If the 1.0 Version of ED is an success then they can make the Expansions, if not... well... we still have "Elite 2 Frontier"

Dont forget that ED could result a financial flop : The games market totaly changed in the last 20 years. This is of course a little bit bitter for us "Expansion backers".... but... hey, we are all grown ups and know the risk