General / Off-Topic Crypto currencies are messed up, and here's why

[marx]

The articles I and others have posted on the subject suggest otherwise. You (and other bitcoin miners) might not agree or like what they say, but they seem legit enough for mainstream 'science' publications to talk about the issues.

It appears you're missing the basics of this matter. Morbad says he's mining cryptocurrencies, not Bitcoin in particular. Bitcoin by the large is crap at being a currency, both when it would come to actual usage and especially how it's mined, but there are much better alternatives. Also, the articles you cite are very much off the mark when it comes to the power demands. For an analysis on this, see my earlier post in the thread. The original calculations that the articles cite have serious flaws.

Then when you tally up the environmental costs of paper money and coins(!), well, it's not looking good. Then you count in high-frequency trading systems, and forex, and so on, and "traditional" banking systems become much worse in this regard. However, there are far more polluting wasteful industries, and perhaps this is just my opinion, but maybe we should be looking at fixing those first. Priorities.

In the meantime, some cryptocurrencies like Ethereum (smart contracts) and Monero (actually anonymous currency) have practical usage beyond the speculation that's driving much of the market.

I would like to see some research published in scientific journals on this matter, the environmental impact of cryptocurrencies compared with "regular" currencies(!), but none of the articles you posted above are that.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

You'll never get proper analysis of environmental impacts - like when governments sell scrappage schemes being showed as 'green'. Yeah, consuming our way out of environmental problems...

The issue with cryptocurrencies is governance, therefore these startups will never become mainstream as strict regulation is unavoidable. Also, despite the image of being safe, hackers do steal large sums of bitcoin.
Plus, it seems that reckless and in many cases downright stupid people* are driving the price higher - those who don't even understand the priciples, just see it as something new and cool that will multiply in value.
*At least that is what I experienced, also you've probably seen the Winklevoss twins talking about it.

 

[marx]

Plus, it seems that reckless and in many cases downright stupid people* are driving the price higher - those who don't even understand the priciples, just see it as something new and cool that will multiply in value.

Heh, welcome to the world of finance! Sadly, that's applicable all around, not just to cryptocurrencies.

 

[Gully Foyle]

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...nergy-climate-change?utm_campaign=sharebutton

Look at the amount of electricity and that is being wasted on this absolutely futile endeavor. It honestly makes me mad.

The elephant in the room of course is the scarcity of high end video cards for gamers. Any 4G or better video card can make 6 bucks upwards a day mining Etherium.
Just try finding let alone buying 1080s or RX580s for MSRP or better .
Solar power the suckers with a Tesla roof plus battery and you might break even.

 

[Morbad]

The articles I and others have posted on the subject suggest otherwise. You (and other bitcoin miners) might not agree or like what they say, but they seem legit enough for mainstream 'science' publications to talk about the issues.

Third-hand sensationalized articles are about as good a source for cryptocurrency news as Fox is for the Truth(TM) behind the 'climate change conspiracy'. The fact you're still calling me a Bitcoin miner is pretty much the cherry on top of an ignorance sunday.

That's not to say their aren't issues, but the sources most critical of cryptocurrencies, and blockchain tech in general, almost never have a clue, and take things horribly out context, are completely out of date, or are patently false.

Even when the articles aren't at fault, people like yourself, who lack the context to interpret them, often are. Not being able to tell the difference between Bitcoin and Ether is like not being able to tell the difference between Skyrim or Elite: Dangerous and not knowing how blockchain relates to cryptocurrency is like not knowing how computer relates to spreadsheet.

The problem I have is people projecting their oft imagined issues with a vague cryptocurrency scapegoat on to me.

Plus, it seems that reckless and in many cases downright stupid people* are driving the price higher - those who don't even understand the priciples, just see it as something new and cool that will multiply in value.

There is a cycle where new highs are reached by the big cryptos, which causes a surge of media attention, which drives price to spike higher, frequently off ignorant new investors...then the whales of the crypto industry take some profit, which triggers a price drop, which causes others to sell, which triggers stop loss orders and general panic...then the whales buy back everything they sold and more, while still keeping a good profit. Rinse and repeat.

The market for cryptos is still in it's infancy and is going to get a lot bigger, but along the way a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money because they forgot their due diligence research and aren't used to markets this volatile/unregulated.

The elephant in the room of course is the scarcity of high end video cards for gamers. Any 4G or better video card can make 6 bucks upwards a day mining Etherium.
Just try finding let alone buying 1080s or RX580s for MSRP or better .
Solar power the suckers with a Tesla roof plus battery and you might break even.

Once AMD moves production away from TSMC and both NVIDIA and AMD learn that crypto mining demand is here to stay (there will be crashes, but that barely affects demand because there are always profitable blockchains to mine, and each crash acts as a break on rising difficulties) they will start taking miners into account when placing orders.

Greater supply will ease problems considerably, and shouldn't be too risky for AMD or NVIDIA as long as they are careful to be conservative when estimating demand. Since they also wish to retain gamer customers in preference to miners (gamers are less logical and more likely to buy stuff on name, all but the smallest miners put hashrate and power consumption figures into a calculator and buy completely pragmatically), they will also start offering incentives to retailers and wholesalers that make it more profitable per part to sell to that gaming market.

So, I'm fully expecting mining to stay, but supply to be rather better with this upcoming generation of GPUs.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

There is a cycle where new highs are reached by the big cryptos, which causes a surge of media attention, which drives price to spike higher, frequently off ignorant new investors...then the whales of the crypto industry take some profit, which triggers a price drop, which causes others to sell, which triggers stop loss orders and general panic...then the whales buy back everything they sold and more, while still keeping a good profit. Rinse and repeat.

The market for cryptos is still in it's infancy and is going to get a lot bigger, but along the way a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money because they forgot their due diligence research and aren't used to markets this volatile/unregulated.

May, or may not get bigger. What you've described applies pretty much all assets, even the economic supercycle. As I've said, cryptos face a tsunami of regulation, therefore in their current form will remain marginal. Apart of being 'cool', they offer no advantage over any kind of safe haven.
I'd say the underlying blockchain technology will get bigger, for whatever new products or securities.

 

[Morbad]

As I've said, cryptos face a tsunami of regulation, therefore in their current form will remain marginal.

That's always been a given. If there is one constant in this world, it's that governments will do whatever it takes to take their cut.

Cryptocurrency and the ecosystem surrounding it is still very new, but has already evolved considerably. I don't see regulation slowing it down in the slightest, rather it will legitimize it and futher open it up to mainstream capitalist ventures. Bad for my ideals, very good for my bottom line.

Apart of being 'cool', they offer no advantage over any kind of safe haven.

I generally don't use cryptos as a safe haven, but a way to transfer funds without middlemen (Bitcoin is effectively illiquid at this stage, but there are plenty of other options, even if they aren't as broadly accepted and I haven't had any Bitcoin since 2013 anyway), to gain a stake in specific blockchain platforms I may find useful in the future, or as long shot investments (even if most of my top choices vanish entirely, one of them could be the next Ethereum or Monero and result in a nice return).

Still, I don't really agree that they have no advantages as a safe haven. It's often a lot easier to move and hide crypto than it is more effectively regulated assets. Greece and Venezuela are prime examples of situations where this has been, or still is useful. I know people in Venezuela who secretly mine crypto (the only safe haven they have practical access to in the current economic climate) so they can import food. Drugs or Dollars can be stolen or confiscated, and people have to expose themselves to trade or spend them, but anyone with a phone or any internet connection at all can transfer crypto...hell, if it comes to it, they can write the keys on a napkin and put it in the mail.

 

[Zak Gordon]

so erm, how many GPU's do you guys 'need' to do your thing? What type are they? It is quite a simple issue really right I game on a 1050Ti (as of xmas) upgrading from a 750 Ti (which i specifically got for the low TDP) and was hoping to maybe push towards a 6GB 1060 but the prices are still too high due to the bitcoin thing, and the 120W TDP is at the very top of my 'ok' power usage concerns.

So what and how many GPU's do you use?

 

[marx]

so erm, how many GPU's do you guys 'need' to do your thing? What type are they? It is quite a simple issue really right I game on a 1050Ti (as of xmas) upgrading from a 750 Ti (which i specifically got for the low TDP) and was hoping to maybe push towards a 6GB 1060 but the prices are still too high due to the bitcoin thing, and the 120W TDP is at the very top of my 'ok' power usage concerns.

With the 1060, I think you picked one of, if not The, most popular mining cards. When used for ethash or equihash, they have an excellent price-to-performance and efficiency ratio. Ironically enough, this drove prices (at least where I live) on them high enough that for gaming, if you can shell out more money for nVidia's newer models, you'll get more bang for your buck with those.

Generally, cryptocurrency miners tend to purchase as many cards as they can put into their computers, which is also why many stores nowadays limit purchases to two cards per order only.

 

[Morbad]

So what and how many GPU's do you use?

I've actually never bought a GPU specifically for mining (though mining is now a consideration when buying new ones, and has encouraged me to look at more dual-GPU setups...even SLI or CFX don't work well in some games, the second GPU can simply be left mining). Several years back, I simply stopped selling old hardware and started retiring them to mining boxes, tuning them for peak efficiency to make up for the older/less efficient architectures, and letting them do there thing, switching from crypto to crypto as profitability fluctuated. Since I have several gaming systems that I update semi-frequently, this has added up.

Even my oldest operational mining parts, the notoriously power hungry Hawaii GPUs in my Radeon R9 290Xes, after being undervolted (fyi, the optimal performance/watt ratio of almost any desktop GPU is going to be at 80-90% of stock core clock speed at the lowest voltage needed to be stable..you get 80-90% of the hash rate at 40-60% of the power), only cost 10% of what they make to run in the current market.

Anyway, since you're not buying GPUs specifically to build miners, there is no real downside to mining something on whatever you happen to have, within reason. Even if your carbon footprint is a concern, profitability per watt is such that you could spend half of what you bring on planting trees that would sequester orders of magnitude more carbon than the mining would ever produce and still make a profit.

Obviously, I'd recommend reading up on things so you know exactly what you're getting into, but there are a number of profitable PoW cryptos that mine well on the GTX 1060. You can either pick one you like and stick with it, or you can mine whatever happens to be most profitable at a given moment. Personally, I do a mix of both. I like to retain as much control as possible, but still prefer some convenience, so I tend to mine what I think will do well in the mid-long term, and only sell a portion during peaks.

There are services that will automatically mine what is most profitable and then payout in BTC, but I'm extremely wary of most of them. I did try Nicehash for a bit, but someone there ran off with the site's hot wallet right before I was due to be paid...they are up and running again, but after a breach like that (which is almost always an inside job with the complicity of multiple staff members) I'd have to be a fool to trust them. I only dabbled in the in the first place because I'd only be out a few days of mining profit if something happened between payouts...you'd be relatively more at risk because it would take a single GPU much longer to reach payment threshold meaning your profits could sit in there wallets for weeks or months.

Best bet is to do some research, find platforms you like and see if they can be profitably mined with your hardware (if they can be mined at all), then download a wallet app, a miner, and join a quality mining pool.