Current Jump Range Calculation: Why?

[ziden]

I don't understand why jump range isn't simply limited on your fuel. These ships aren't jumping to nav beacons nor warp gates like in some other space games. These ships are simply using faster than light or frame shift travel to reach a detected astral body. So why can't a ship travel as far as their fuel allows? Of course jumping further means more fuel is consumed and thus less efficient than shorter jumps. This mechanic is already in place as you have to choose "fastest" route every time you log in. In fact if you select a system outside of your jump range the game already shows how much of your fuel tank would be used given the ability to jump there.

So again I ask, why have a jump range outside of the limitation of fuel consumption? Better FSD's would be more fuel efficient and thus allow for further jumps based not on some weird unknown variable (I'm guessing mass), but on the only logical variable this game has, fuel. Larger mass may mean more fuel consumption, but you'd still fully maximize your fuel tank's capabilities.

It seems silly that i can go to a place 15 ly from where I want to be, buy a viper and modify it, then I have to make seven jumps to reach my destination because although my fuel would allow for a 15 ly jump, game mechanics say "nope." Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Edit: The FSD's do take a certain amount of fuel per "jump" as an arbitrary limitation to enable the formula

Fuel Cost = Coefficient * (Distance * (Mass / Optimised Mass))^Power

The jump is valid only if Fuel Cost is less than an amount defined by the FSD.

So I still wonder why that limit exists. Why not make the FSD's max fuel per jump a dynamic variable which takes into account the ship's fuel tank? Maximum and optimal mass take into account fuel efficiency, so it's still valid to upgrade your FSD to travel further.

 

[CMDR M Kozak]

Its also a case of your engine being able to jump far enough.

Its like my car in a way. The fueltank can hold fuel for a 700km trip, but still the engine can only go about 175 km/h

 

[NewYears1978]

It's based on Mass, as you stated. Just check out the ED Shipyard which you can see the mass effect of each component and how it effects your FSD/Jump Range.

Of all the things to complain about this is definitely not one of them. (For me anyways)

 

[VATrevelyan]

Mass noticeably affects jump range, just like in FE2 and FFE. Higher quality drives are less affected than lower quality drives.

As for "why can't a ship travel as far as their fuel allows" the in-game answer is that only a certain amount of mass may be consumed by a drive at any given time and may not be over fed (this reservoir increases as drive quality improves).

A range limit for FTL is not a new mechanic to the series, it is present in every official Elite/Frontier series release, and in every spinoff game as a deliberate mechanic.

 

[Biggus]

Its also a case of your engine being able to jump far enough.

Its like my car in a way. The fueltank can hold fuel for a 700km trip, but still the engine can only go about 175 km/h

Not really a valid comparison. This isn't about top speed, it's about attainable range for the fuel being carried. Your car could potentially use all it's fuel on one single trip. Or it could use fractions of the total fuel to make smaller trips.

 

[Trondster]

Because pseudoscience. You have to jump to a star, to be able to stop controllably - that's why we can't do a lot of micro jumps in the middle of nowhere. Fuel usage increases a lot as the distance increases (shorter jumps save a lot of fuel), and there is a limitation as to how far a FSD can go safely in one jump.
When your cargo increase, your mass increased, and you use more fuel, and you get to the safety limit much sooner.

And - game balance.

This is something that works just as intended, and works quite well at that.

 

[ziden]

I see the argument being made here (I think.) You're saying if a ship is X mass then the engine will only be able to frame shift to a solar body Y distance away. I say, why? I mean obviously it's mass vs. FSD size, but if you're going into a super-super cruise ie Frame Shift cruise, why can't you frame shift as far as your fuel allows? I know having more mass means it may have to burn more fuel to reach your destination, but it still shouldn't affect your ships ability to reach a destination as long as you have a fuel tank to support the travel.

 

[NewYears1978]

Mass noticeably affects jump range, just like in FE2 and FFE. Higher quality drives are less affected than lower quality drives.

As for "why can't a ship travel as far as their fuel allows" the in-game answer is that only a certain amount of mass may be consumed by a drive at any given time and may not be over fed (this reservoir increases as drive quality improves).

A range limit for FTL is not a new mechanic to the series, it is present in every official Elite/Frontier series release, and in every spinoff game as a deliberate mechanic.

And it also makes sense from a gameplay standpoint as well as a technical one.

Which this next poster says just that as well.

Because pseudoscience. You have to jump to a star, to be able to stop controllably - that's why we can do a lot of micro jumps in the middle of nowhere. Fuel usage increases a lot as the distance increases (shorter jumps save a lot of fuel), and there is a limitation as to how far a FSD can go safely in one jump.
When your cargo increase, your mass increased, and you use more fuel, and you get to the safety limit much sooner.

And - game balance.

This is something that works just as intended, and works quite well at that.

So..like I stated before..of all the things to complain about, this is not one of them

 

[Vasious]

Not really a valid comparison. This isn't about top speed, it's about attainable range for the fuel being carried. Your car could potentially use all it's fuel on one single trip. Or it could use fractions of the total fuel to make smaller trips.

It is limited by Engine Size and total Mass.
For the car engine analogy to work we would be talking about one cylinder cycle as the FSD uses the fuel in one go to

The frame shift drive can be activated to compress space to the point where ships can travel
light-years in seconds, jumping from one star system to another in moments. Such travel is
known colloquially as a hyperspace jump.

So you can only put so much fuel in the cylinder in any one cycle and still have it work, even if your fuel tank have plenty more fuel in it.

 

[ziden]

Because pseudoscience. You have to jump to a star, to be able to stop controllably - that's why we can do a lot of micro jumps in the middle of nowhere. Fuel usage increases a lot as the distance increases (shorter jumps save a lot of fuel), and there is a limitation as to how far a FSD can go safely in one jump.
When your cargo increase, your mass increased, and you use more fuel, and you get to the safety limit much sooner.

And - game balance.

This is something that works just as intended, and works quite well at that.

The game is still balanced for further travel. A viper for instance that would normally jump around 8ly, may jump 20+ ly, but its tank would be empty. A python may be able to do a 50+ly jump, but again, tank would be nearly empty. If you trade and make a 40+ly jump, you save time, but the gross gains from time saved would be lowered due to fuel consumption. Your net may be pretty close to even.

 

[Bog]

I'd say a better comparison is fuel tank vs. engine size. For example, my car has a ~50 litre tank, and a 2.1 litre engine. I can only be burning that much gas at one time.

Also I need to sell this gas guzzler and get a Prius.

 

[ziden]

It's based on Mass, as you stated. Just check out the ED Shipyard which you can see the mass effect of each component and how it effects your FSD/Jump Range.

Of all the things to complain about this is definitely not one of them. (For me anyways)

I appreciate that you have your opinions of what matters and what doesn't in this game as you paid money for the game. I also spent money on a release game with alpha mechanics, but I, however, find that this particular mechanic is silly.

 

[Wullail]

Ypu could think of it as , the engine pulls fuel from the reservoir (fuel tank) into it's own smaller internal tank , then uses that to generate the energy needed to create the warp bubble of a set strength needed to jump into hyperspace.

Tthe engine can only produce a bubble of a set strength based on it's quality (like a capacitor can only hold a max charge before it has to disipate the energy, any more energy pushed into it would burn out the capacitor )

After a set distance the energy from the warp bubble would destabalise on it's own leaving you stranded , which is why the nav computer restricts where you can jump to.

Higher quality drives can process a larger amount of fuel to produce a stonger more energetic bubble, but can still only hold a certain charge.

 

[ziden]

I'd say a better comparison is fuel tank vs. engine size. For example, my car has a ~50 litre tank, and a 2.1 litre engine. I can only be burning that much gas at one time.

Also I need to sell this gas guzzler and get a Prius.

I get what you're saying, that one cylinder blast will only move the car so far. What I'm asking is why the engine is just taking a shot of fuel? Was there some theory in the original game that I'm missing here because if you have an origin and a destination, then the engine should just draw the amount of fuel needed for the travel.

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Ypu could think of it as , the engine pulls fuel from the reservoir (fuel tank) into it's own smaller internal tank , then uses that to generate the energy needed to create the warp bubble of a set strength needed to jump into hyperspace.

Tthe engine can only produce a bubble of a set strength based on it's quality (like a capacitor can only hold a max charge before it has to disipate the energy, any more energy pushed into it would burn out the capacitor )

After a set distance the energy from the warp bubble would destabalise on it's own leaving you stranded , which is why the nav computer restricts where you can jump to.

Higher quality drives can process a larger amount of fuel to produce a stonger more energetic bubble, but can still only hold a certain charge.

I get that. That's actually a solid reply and I appreciate you posting it. I do, however still ask why it can only draw so much and why it can't be designed to take the entire fuel storage into consideration? I mean heck, we can buy different sized fuel tanks (always smaller), but still the capability is there. I just don't see why a system like this would have its own internal fuel storage when it could act like any other engine and pulls what it needs as it needs it.

Edit: Also as I noted in my original post, the game (maybe it's broken) already shows how much fuel would be required to jump from origin to destination even if it is out of your jump range.

 

[Ydiss]

Because FD wanted it this way for game play reasons. If jump range was based 100% on fuel capacity, the Asp would jump the same distance as several other ships.

It would then no longer be the specialised explorer ship it's designed to be. And the hauler would suddenly have its jump range severely limited, taking away one of its benefits. And we'd be able to jump hundreds of light years in one go, severely limiting the sensation of scale in the galaxy.

I could keep going.

I won't pretend to understand the theoretical science behind it. I'm certain there is some sound theory and probably some handwavium theory too. But the real answer is "because the developers wanted to add depth of ship variation" and jump range is one way of doing that.

 

[AsukaZ]

There's also the risk of using all your fuel in one jump and ending up at a non scoopable star and then you're really stuck.

 

[Harbinger]

Maybe you'll find this dev post helpful:

The formula for hyperspace travel is pretty straight forward but the variables assigned to it are still subject to change (and will be changed).

Fuel Cost = Coefficient * (Distance * (Mass / Optimised Mass))^Power

The jump is valid only if Fuel Cost is less than an amount defined by the FSD (2.4'ish for a cobra FSD).

The Coefficient (cobra: 0.023) and Power (cobra: 2.15) are just values that shape the fuel cost and diminishing returns on long distance jumps. Optimised Mass (cobra: 132) is what the FSD is rated to move through hyperspace.

I believe the Cobra has a mass of 113 baked into it's hull at the moment before adding on mass from fuel, cargo and modules installed per the OP.

Each FSD lists these stats, the rest of it comes down to the overall mass of your ship (including fuel remaining in your tank and cargo).

 

[Bokugo]

I always thought of it like a powered grapple hook (which sorta makes sense, as you "tether" yourself to a super mass). The power source can be unlimited but you're still relying on the length of the rope/chain.

 

[VATrevelyan]

Hmm. I sort of think about it like this.

For FE2, FFE your drive takes fuel directly from cargo. You could have up to a Class 8 drive, and each drive grade would have a maximum fuel intake of (DriveClass)^2 in tons. That's a lot of fuel for a full drive to process at once and it's quite conceivable that those era drives were limited by the sheer size a gas guzzler drive like you are proposing would have on a ship (keep in mind the highest tier of these older drives massed 100s of tons already).

In Elite and here, I prefer to see it as an over/under pressurization problem, very very roughly similar to engine flooding. In an IC engine, you start your car, you give it a certain amount of gas. Too little and it won't turn over, too much and it fails for a while.

"But once it's already on I should be able to use as much gas as I want!"

But that's because this isn't a combustion engine. You do not move linearly except when you are moving to witchspace. Once there it requires a certain amount of gas to take you from one gravity well, to another. If you use too little gas, you go nowhere or just move perhaps intersystem (thus neatly tying into future FD ideas regarding inter-system travel potentially). If you use too much gas, your drive fails, you fall into a star, the drive blows up from the immense energies required for FTL, etc.. You just don't do it, and the drive makers specifically design the drive so it won't mess up. After all if it does, a multi-million ship down the drain and the insurance company is going to have something to say about that, right?

This is alleviated with high quality drives, which sip reaction mass as a start, and also are built to such a level that they can take very high "pressures".

 

[Bog]

What we're basically driving at is that the engine can only glug so much fuel in one go. You can carry more fuel than the engine can glug, but it can only glug so much.

As to why? Well, it turns out that superluminal flight is a tricky . Even the best Frame Shift Drives we can build have a range of about 30 Lights. They have a definite range, which burns a specific amount of fuel, and they can go So Far And No Further. The way FSDs get seemingly logarithmically more expensive as their range opens implies to me that the manufacturing costs, the tolerance of precision building it, the amount of Computer Welly stuffed into it are more and more demanding, the further the jump. But they can only be made *so good*. There are no 300-Light jumpdrives, nor 1,000-Light jumpdrives. It would seem there's a limit to the things, the same way we can't get 20GHz CPUs.

If we didn't have a gas tank plugged into it, it would be jump... refuel... jump. And as not all stars can be scooped, nor does every star have a gas station, that would break the game.