In my excitement for 1.1, I have decided to move my analysis of 1.1 a day early. If anything is going to change from now to full 1.1 release, this post will be amended where needed
This thread is going to be a place to discuss how ships post Asp are balanced with one another.
To preface, these tests are done in a PvP environment, as the PvE environment is currently conquered by the likes of the fighters. Since large ships have nothing to balance against in the PvE, testing is done and comparisons are made when these ships fight against each other. When this changes, and the NPC AI becomes a threat to deal with, then the argument will be revised and revisited.
To be clear, this thread is not focused on how fighter perform against big ships, but how big ships can handle each other in a combat setting. Fighter interaction will be mentioned only in passing
With that out of the way, let us begin.
For starters, we must define these ships into classes in order to better understand their roles and interactions with one another both in theory and in practice. But first, we must define what makes a ship, "Large".
For this discussion, a large ship is defined by when a vessel is no longer able to efficiently engage in dogfights. This can be defined when a ship has to have significant downsides built into its flight model in order for it to be balanced.
With that said, we can now define the three roles:
1: The Big Cobra (TBC): This is where the Clipper alone resides, with the flight model and hardpoints almost the exact same, but exaggerated in all regards to balance it out.
2: The Big Hauler (TBH): T7, T9, that sort of thing. Self explanatory
3: The Armed Trade Ship(ATS): Python, Anaconda. Pre 1.1, you could divide these two ships into subcategories, Offence and Defense. The Python attacked, wile the Anaconda would defend. This is no longer the case, the Python is now only a weaker Conda in all regards.
Regardless, this is not a Python thread.
All other ships fail to fall into a category (Orca, the Dropship) Shall not be included in this discussion, as their role is still not yet implemented in the game.
With these classes defined, we now shall go into how each class interacts with one another.
Expansion:
Mass lock, how does it work?
First and foremost, I would like to start this expanded section by stating, I was under the impression that mass lock worked as the named implied, by mass.
Testing shows that this is not the case.
See this example below
It turns out, that the mass of ships is irreverent. Frontier instead opted to go with assigning values to each ship how much mass lock they have, and only seeks out the largest value and compares it to your own to determine weather or not you are mass locked.
Below is a quote of the values for a large majority of the large ships.
With this discovery, one does not buy a large ship to mass lock others. One does not create situations where the total mass of players around is enough to bog a target down.
The Clipper holds no benefits over the Asp in this regard.
The T9 with its 1000T hull is the same as the Asp.
This in turns creates disinterest with large ships as a whole. Unless a player wants to mass lock another Anaconda, one can simply bring an Asp and mass lock everything up to a Drop ship.
Fighters are proven to be held in higher regard in this situation.
Moving on, now the discussion shall focus on interactions in a combat setting.
The Big Cobra (TBC from this point forward) interactions with the The Big Haulers (TBH):
This interaction rarely has occurrences in the field, as the Clipper lacks the reasoning to attack a Type 9. Said T9 is almost immune to direct engagements with Pirates, with its in-ability to get mass locked, and large cargo pools prevent scooping a large majority of possible loot. More is lost to the void then to the pirate if a T9 drops its load.
Amendment: Clipper repair prices are remarkably low, at 6-10k for SC exits. Clipper thus has cause to Pirate. Below is the original statement
The only thing that can currently bog down a T9 would be in theory the Clipper and Conda(Asp is all that is needed, since most of the other ships share the same mass lock value, anything more is overkill), and neither are able to scoop enough to cover repairs for the interdiction. Only the Clipper can benefit from the encounter
Rendering this profession moot, (in addition to the ship when compared to fighter craft) . (Take note how much this is going to crop up in this analysis)
On that note, from a combat perspective, these engagements end up much like a Cobra would against such a target, just with more damage being output. There are ways for the Type 9 to defend itself from such attacks, but this will be mentioned later on.
(TBC) Against (ATS)
This is where the balance starts to fall apart.
With the current iterations of the Python and Anaconda as of patch 1.1 Beta 3: These trade ships are defensive in nature. They are better suited for defending their hauled goods rather than attacking others. This is fine.
However, how these ships are forced to do so is a outstanding issue.
For context, this is a dog fighting trade sim. There is no really getting around this.
Because of this, the current idea is to limit speed and turn rates so that fighter craft have a place with these ships, and do not end up dominated by them. This makes these ships perform poorly in the dogfight. Rather than accept this fact and never bring them to combat, one is forced to adopt tactics to reliably overcome these downsides.
One must reverse to properly defend their self when flying these bigger ships.
Because of this, TBC is unable to do much of anything to ATS. due to Reversing. Why this is so effective will be discussed farther down.
The only thing saving the Clipper from becoming moot is its high speed, but when compared to the Cobra there is little use for this ship in this type of engagement. However since fighters are not the focus here, we will say that the Clipper has its place in the large ship selection.
(TBH) Against (ATS)
Due to a lack of shield and incentive to engage such targets as mentioned previously, this will be skipped over.
(ATS) Against (ATS)
The dreaded Python Vs Anaconda segment.
Pre 1.1, the Conda was dead even with the Python in terms of tanking, however, the Conda had two trump cards.
1: The plasma accelerator
2: Class 8 PD
Post 1.1, the main thing that allowed the Python to remain competitive, its shields, where downgraded. In addition to this, its acceleration was hit had enough that in a dog fight, the Python loses out to the Anaconda. It simply lacks the power to punch through the bunker.
The result? Well I think that this video shows quite well what happens now.
The only thing that these changes really do, was knock out the Pythons teeth against large targets, and encourage ramming as shown at the end of the video. Keep in mind, the boost towards the Python was done only to prove the point.
So the Python now loses to the Anaconda, what of other ships?
Again due to lack of proper incentive, the Python has less reason to Attack a T9 as say a Viper would. The T9s shields are so weak to start with that anything more than Class 2 lasers is total overkill. Since the goal is only cargo, and the Python is unable to mass lock the T9(Is no better at mass locking the T9 compared to an Asp), its ability to do much else does not justify its price.
Against smaller craft, the Python is forced to resort to the same tactics a Conda pilot would employ against him, to an extent.
Since landing on outposts is not enough of a boon to justify reason of use compared to the Conda,
1.1 renders the ship outside of trade, moot
(TBC) Against (TBC)
Turns into what a Cobra V Cobra match up would.
(TBH) Against (TBH)
Comical. I start chuckling thinking about it. On that note not enough reason to test this area.
Now that we are done explaining how these ships currently interact with each other, we can now go into the meat of the problem.
Why is Reversing so effective?
Since we know why players are forced to reverse, we can discuss why it works so well.
First, look below at this video. Two extremes at odds with each other, but demonstrate well enough for evidence.
The principle remains the same no matter the ships used. If one has stronger shields then the other, then the current flight model allows them to abuse this fact wile the target has no means to overcome this.
Speed matters little when acceleration is so low one overshoots when they pass the target.
The irony of this situation is that large ships are forced to do this against each other and fighters, its also the most effective way to deal with anyone defensively period.
The catch is like a cage trap with one end always open, one does not have to stay in the trap, and the hunter can do nothing about it
The only real balance to this currently is that the Anaconda is slow, because of this, everything can get away. This is balanced.
But when its say an Asp against a Cobra, the ability to run away is greatly diminished. The farther down you scale with ships, the more and more difficult it becomes to get away from the cage, the exact opposite of what happens when its done with the Anaconda. If the Anaconda was the only one that could benefit from this, it would not be the issue it currently is.
Since this can not be overcame with the current flight model and weapon selection currently lacks the means to do enough damage for the fighters to go toe to toe, solutions must be found.
Possible solutions
Ideas include the following:
Increase acceleration across the board
Increase all ships ability to recover from drift
Add weapons capable of dealing with flying bunkers
Destroy reverse rates for all ships (If done to the Conda, it loses its one way to defend outside of relying on turrets)
Tweak every ship in the game to be able to overcome this.
In conclusion, large ship balance needs development time, even more so when their own effectiveness against each other is so low for the cost. Even more so with the lack of ships available.
Thank you for your time. Feel free to leave thoughts, constructive criticisms, etc.
Hopefully this analysis will be more well received here then in the beta forums where it fell out of the discussion in favor of other topics.
This thread is going to be a place to discuss how ships post Asp are balanced with one another.
To preface, these tests are done in a PvP environment, as the PvE environment is currently conquered by the likes of the fighters. Since large ships have nothing to balance against in the PvE, testing is done and comparisons are made when these ships fight against each other. When this changes, and the NPC AI becomes a threat to deal with, then the argument will be revised and revisited.
To be clear, this thread is not focused on how fighter perform against big ships, but how big ships can handle each other in a combat setting. Fighter interaction will be mentioned only in passing
With that out of the way, let us begin.
For starters, we must define these ships into classes in order to better understand their roles and interactions with one another both in theory and in practice. But first, we must define what makes a ship, "Large".
For this discussion, a large ship is defined by when a vessel is no longer able to efficiently engage in dogfights. This can be defined when a ship has to have significant downsides built into its flight model in order for it to be balanced.
With that said, we can now define the three roles:
1: The Big Cobra (TBC): This is where the Clipper alone resides, with the flight model and hardpoints almost the exact same, but exaggerated in all regards to balance it out.
2: The Big Hauler (TBH): T7, T9, that sort of thing. Self explanatory
3: The Armed Trade Ship(ATS): Python, Anaconda. Pre 1.1, you could divide these two ships into subcategories, Offence and Defense. The Python attacked, wile the Anaconda would defend. This is no longer the case, the Python is now only a weaker Conda in all regards.
Regardless, this is not a Python thread.
All other ships fail to fall into a category (Orca, the Dropship) Shall not be included in this discussion, as their role is still not yet implemented in the game.
With these classes defined, we now shall go into how each class interacts with one another.
Expansion:
Mass lock, how does it work?
First and foremost, I would like to start this expanded section by stating, I was under the impression that mass lock worked as the named implied, by mass.
Testing shows that this is not the case.
See this example below
[video=youtube;cCwFNaR1lkQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCwFNaR1lkQ&list=UU9mlesZ3jx1E20uLXVWOUOA[/video]
It turns out, that the mass of ships is irreverent. Frontier instead opted to go with assigning values to each ship how much mass lock they have, and only seeks out the largest value and compares it to your own to determine weather or not you are mass locked.
Below is a quote of the values for a large majority of the large ships.
Asp - 18;
T7 - 18;
Clipper - 18;
T9 - 18;
Dropship - 20;
Anaconda - 24;
With this discovery, one does not buy a large ship to mass lock others. One does not create situations where the total mass of players around is enough to bog a target down.
The Clipper holds no benefits over the Asp in this regard.
The T9 with its 1000T hull is the same as the Asp.
This in turns creates disinterest with large ships as a whole. Unless a player wants to mass lock another Anaconda, one can simply bring an Asp and mass lock everything up to a Drop ship.
Fighters are proven to be held in higher regard in this situation.
Moving on, now the discussion shall focus on interactions in a combat setting.
The Big Cobra (TBC from this point forward) interactions with the The Big Haulers (TBH):
This interaction rarely has occurrences in the field, as the Clipper lacks the reasoning to attack a Type 9. Said T9 is almost immune to direct engagements with Pirates, with its in-ability to get mass locked, and large cargo pools prevent scooping a large majority of possible loot. More is lost to the void then to the pirate if a T9 drops its load.
Amendment: Clipper repair prices are remarkably low, at 6-10k for SC exits. Clipper thus has cause to Pirate. Below is the original statement
On that note, from a combat perspective, these engagements end up much like a Cobra would against such a target, just with more damage being output. There are ways for the Type 9 to defend itself from such attacks, but this will be mentioned later on.
(TBC) Against (ATS)
This is where the balance starts to fall apart.
With the current iterations of the Python and Anaconda as of patch 1.1 Beta 3: These trade ships are defensive in nature. They are better suited for defending their hauled goods rather than attacking others. This is fine.
However, how these ships are forced to do so is a outstanding issue.
For context, this is a dog fighting trade sim. There is no really getting around this.
Because of this, the current idea is to limit speed and turn rates so that fighter craft have a place with these ships, and do not end up dominated by them. This makes these ships perform poorly in the dogfight. Rather than accept this fact and never bring them to combat, one is forced to adopt tactics to reliably overcome these downsides.
One must reverse to properly defend their self when flying these bigger ships.
Because of this, TBC is unable to do much of anything to ATS. due to Reversing. Why this is so effective will be discussed farther down.
The only thing saving the Clipper from becoming moot is its high speed, but when compared to the Cobra there is little use for this ship in this type of engagement. However since fighters are not the focus here, we will say that the Clipper has its place in the large ship selection.
(TBH) Against (ATS)
Due to a lack of shield and incentive to engage such targets as mentioned previously, this will be skipped over.
(ATS) Against (ATS)
The dreaded Python Vs Anaconda segment.
Pre 1.1, the Conda was dead even with the Python in terms of tanking, however, the Conda had two trump cards.
1: The plasma accelerator
2: Class 8 PD
Post 1.1, the main thing that allowed the Python to remain competitive, its shields, where downgraded. In addition to this, its acceleration was hit had enough that in a dog fight, the Python loses out to the Anaconda. It simply lacks the power to punch through the bunker.
The result? Well I think that this video shows quite well what happens now.
[video=youtube;Z-jmmaWQFd4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jmmaWQFd4&feature=youtu.be[/video]
The only thing that these changes really do, was knock out the Pythons teeth against large targets, and encourage ramming as shown at the end of the video. Keep in mind, the boost towards the Python was done only to prove the point.
So the Python now loses to the Anaconda, what of other ships?
Again due to lack of proper incentive, the Python has less reason to Attack a T9 as say a Viper would. The T9s shields are so weak to start with that anything more than Class 2 lasers is total overkill. Since the goal is only cargo, and the Python is
Against smaller craft, the Python is forced to resort to the same tactics a Conda pilot would employ against him, to an extent.
Since landing on outposts is not enough of a boon to justify reason of use compared to the Conda,
1.1 renders the ship outside of trade, moot
(TBC) Against (TBC)
Turns into what a Cobra V Cobra match up would.
(TBH) Against (TBH)
Comical. I start chuckling thinking about it. On that note not enough reason to test this area.
Now that we are done explaining how these ships currently interact with each other, we can now go into the meat of the problem.
Why is Reversing so effective?
Since we know why players are forced to reverse, we can discuss why it works so well.
First, look below at this video. Two extremes at odds with each other, but demonstrate well enough for evidence.
[video=youtube;30kljl3nuyM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30kljl3nuyM&feature=youtu.be[/video]
The principle remains the same no matter the ships used. If one has stronger shields then the other, then the current flight model allows them to abuse this fact wile the target has no means to overcome this.
Speed matters little when acceleration is so low one overshoots when they pass the target.
The irony of this situation is that large ships are forced to do this against each other and fighters, its also the most effective way to deal with anyone defensively period.
The catch is like a cage trap with one end always open, one does not have to stay in the trap, and the hunter can do nothing about it
The only real balance to this currently is that the Anaconda is slow, because of this, everything can get away. This is balanced.
But when its say an Asp against a Cobra, the ability to run away is greatly diminished. The farther down you scale with ships, the more and more difficult it becomes to get away from the cage, the exact opposite of what happens when its done with the Anaconda. If the Anaconda was the only one that could benefit from this, it would not be the issue it currently is.
Since this can not be overcame with the current flight model and weapon selection currently lacks the means to do enough damage for the fighters to go toe to toe, solutions must be found.
Possible solutions
Ideas include the following:
Increase acceleration across the board
Increase all ships ability to recover from drift
Add weapons capable of dealing with flying bunkers
Destroy reverse rates for all ships (If done to the Conda, it loses its one way to defend outside of relying on turrets)
Tweak every ship in the game to be able to overcome this.
Etc. Any other ideas will be added on to this section.
In conclusion, large ship balance needs development time, even more so when their own effectiveness against each other is so low for the cost. Even more so with the lack of ships available.
Thank you for your time. Feel free to leave thoughts, constructive criticisms, etc.
Hopefully this analysis will be more well received here then in the beta forums where it fell out of the discussion in favor of other topics.
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