Custom Music Satus

Vampiro · Jun 12, 2016

Im sorry to open up yet another Custom Music Thread, i promise this will be my last one.

I think everyone knows by now that custom music is my personal most wanted feature. Looking back at the audio Q&A it was apparent a lot of people want this feaure. When people asked about it, it was even described by the dev's as "the one question to rule them all"...

So i guess there is no more need to explain WHY we really want this feature in, as it's already apparent it would be more then nice to have this feature in. Even the dev's want it in. It was however explained it was very difficult to do as the software they are using right now doesn't support custom music.

Matthew Florianz said:
One question to rule them all: User Music.
You want this, internally we want it too and we’ve done it before on RCT3 so it’s not a huge leap to imagine it low hanging fruit for Planet Coaster... right?

Well....

The technical reality of this feature is that it is complex, especially because we want it to behave in a user friendly way. Ironically, it is much more involved now than it was ten years ago!

Let me explain a few reasons why:
We changed our audio tech and the new audio middleware we use (Wwise) does amazing things (you can hear that) however it cannot play user music out of the box. We need a custom solution for this because we don’t want for people to have to download Wwise, install it and follow a tutorial : ) Many people here can figure out how to do this (this is PC land after all!) but we don’t feel that solution helps our entire community. We want to do it right, which means we need our teams on engine, interface and game-logic to support a feature like that.

Another hurdle is that we do so much audio work in the game currently (which is partially why it sounds so great!) that there is in fact *less* room now for streaming your own music than ten years ago! A single coaster for instance presents more audio work than we did at any moment during rtc3. We have more than 80 sounds on a coaster (wind, tracks, whooshes, people, flanges, clangs, wheels, car rattles) all manipulated in real time to make sure whatever you build always sounds unique to that track. Just like the top of that loop on your favourite coaster always creates its own unique rhythms of clangs, bangs and resonances so too does your creation in Planet Coaster!

As said, despite faster hardware we still need to find room for streaming audio, this might sound unbelievable but unlike graphics; audio is not hardware accelerated! Audio hardware is pretty much in the pre-graphics-card era and it’s quite amazing all the things we CAN do regardless!

I’d like to be honest with you, as a feature, there’s no one on the team that doesn’t want this in by yesterday. But I have to make choices where we apply our audio resources. On a feature like this, which involves the engine team, gui, gameplay and design we have to be even more careful what we can ask for in terms of support. The biggest hurdle here is that custom audio doesn’t come pre-packaged in our optimised sound banks and as such in a technically, simulation and content sense more complex Coaster game than we made, user music wouldn’t automatically scale.

This game is so incredibly rich in features and content I have to choose between supporting more coasters, guests, composed music etc. (all coming towards release!) and user selectable music. It’s a choice between something which benefits everyone and something that benefits a smaller, though not any less enthusiastic (!) community of builders. I believe more people will benefit from content variation and supporting the amount of current features.

So we definitely see the creative merit in it and we are still investigating the issue. I’s not something we can commit to until we know how to solve these challenges.

Another much used reason why it's not in the game is because it could cause legal trouble's. Personally i think thats a non-argument as long as the music isn't shared. And i can think of 100 more reasons why legal issue's wont be a problem for custom music. But ofcourse im not a law expert. So basically i have 2 questions. I can understand they can't answer 1. yet because confirmations are pretty much never given in replay to a question (and i understand that) But hopefully the second can be answered.

1.
Everyone want's custom music, even the dev's. We know there are techical challenges to make it happen so i wonder whats the status of the feature? Is it confirmed to NOT be part of the game? Or is it still being looking into so a possible solution can be found? Or is it on hold for now but will it be under further investigation after release?
Anyway, can we know what the status is on this feature?

2.
Are legal issue's any part of the reason why it's not in the game?

Angelis1 · Jun 12, 2016

Vampiro said:
2.
Are legal issue's any part of the reason why it's not in the game?

Really ? [woah]

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/4450-Custom-Music?p=44183&viewfull=1#post44183

Vampiro · Jun 13, 2016

Angelis said:
Really ? [woah]

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/4450-Custom-Music?p=44183&viewfull=1#post44183

Im aware we have been discussing this earlyer, but it seems we differ opinions while neither of us know if it plays any part in Frontiers decission making.

You assume the music has to be shared, just like custom content. I think we pretty much agree on the fact there WILL be a legal issue when music is shared. So the other option is to not share custom music. (When i share my park the other user won't have any sound on that ride or the custom music could be replaced by an in-game tune)
(We already agree'd on this part)

But im just assuming the music is NOT shared, so what are the legal issue's right then? In my opinion there are non but it seems some people are still disagreeing with me on this one.

So i would love to hear if those whole issue is of ANY influence in the decission making if custom music will be in the game. So basically im not trying to start another discussion, i just have idle hope Frontier would make a statement if legal issue's are playing any part in this feature.

Angelis1 · Jun 13, 2016

Sorry but I don't understand your question 2. No need for an official statement.
The copyright international laws are clear enough : If the music is shared, Frontier is legally responsable, if not, it's the user's responsibility. You can check by yourself if you want.

About the question 1, this is an interesting question, but I bet they will make no comments on this feature until they have something ready (They always work that way, to take the least risk on their official statements) but we have already identified all the solutions here :

Angelis said:
[...] with the "UGC library" solution (If they choose this solution for the management of custom content), I can guarantee you that there will be literally thousands and thousands of free and legal "music and sounds", in lots of different themes and style, that we can use in your building/rides/park speakers, after just few weeks of existence.

The library could be filled with :
- Music and sounds composed by the audio team of Frontier (Official content)
- Music and sounds composed by the players (UGC)

But also :
- Existing royalty free music (with "non-commercial" and "non-profit" licensing)
- Open source / Creativecommons music (if Frontier allow us to give credit to the source in the library)
- Music from partnership with artists (famous or not)
- Music from the public domain (copyright expired)

With all that, the library would quickly so full, you could not listen to all in a lifetime. [big grin]

OR ...

They could choose the "offline" solution (with an MP3 importer like the old day, like in RCT3), but the counterpart is severe : impossible to download a complete park, impossible to visit a park online, etc...

OR ...

Both :
- If you activate the "online" function, the "Custom Content" (from your computer is "grayed") and you need to use the official content and the UGC available at the library
- If you desactivate the "online" function, you can use any kind of content you want (textures, 3D objets, music, logo, anything from your computer) but all the social and online features will be deactivated for this specific park

After that, CableGuy submitted a fourth solution, consisting in deactivating the custom music if you share the park (which is clearly not my favorite, but it's a possibility too)

Of course, two other solutions are possibles :
- They don't give us custom music
- They don't give a **** about the law, and they allow us to add to share custom music in our shared parks (but ... yeah ... nope [haha])

Conclusion : many (6) possibilities, their choice.

EDIT : Seriously, if you post works, and you get an answer on what solution they chose, then bravo !!!

Vampiro · Jun 13, 2016

Angelis said:
Sorry but I don't understand your question 2. No need for an official statement.
The copyright international laws are clear enough : If the music is shared, Frontier is legally responsable, if not, it's the user's responsibility. You can check by yourself if you want.

About the question 1, this is an interesting question, but I bet they will make no comments on this feature until they have something ready (They always work that way, to take the least risk on their official statements) but we have already identified all the solutions here :

After that, CableGuy submitted a fourth solution, consisting in deactivating the custom music if you share the park (which is clearly not my favorite, but it's a possibility too)

Of course, two other solutions are possibles :
- They don't give us custom music
- They don't give a **** about the law, and they allow us to add to share custom music in our shared parks (but ... yeah ... nope [haha])

Conclusion : many (6) possibilities, their choice.

EDIT : Seriously, if you post works, and you get an answer on what solution they chose, then bravo !!!

The weird thing is, i 100% agree with what you say...

Im like 99% sure there is no legal issue, but im no expert and a lot of people are diagreeeing with me, so i tought it might not hurt to hear from Frontier themself that it's no issue.

And im aware the chances of getting a status update are pretty close to 0%, but still, i still have the urge to do so...they are always very carefull untill they confirm something, maybe they are more straight forward when disconfirming something... Ah well, i just felt the urge to try.

simemo · Jun 13, 2016

Was the last THREE PAGE forum thread that you started 2 days ago not enough? Please dont spam the forums over and over, if you didnt get the answers you wanted then, I fail to see how ANOTHER thread will help.

Vampiro · Jun 13, 2016

simemo said:
Was the last THREE PAGE forum thread that you started 2 days ago not enough? Please dont spam the forums over and over, if you didnt get the answers you wanted then, I fail to see how ANOTHER thread will help.

Uhm?? The last thread i started about custom music was over a month ago??

The reason i started this one was more about getting an answer about the whole legal issue, and not so much about why we need custom music. So even tough its both about custom music, it was not ment as another "we need it" thread.

But i get what you say, im aware i should tone down my custom music crazyness. And i will [mouth shut]

Angelis1 · Jun 13, 2016

Vampiro said:
[...] Im like 99% sure there is no legal issue, but im no expert and a lot of people are diagreeeing with me, so i tought it might not hurt to hear from Frontier themself that it's no issue [...]

Sorry but what do you mean by "I'm like 99% sure there is no legal issue" ? and "people are diagreeeing with me" ? Huh ?
You can not agree or not, it's not a personnal opinion here, but the law. [big grin]
Every creations belongs to its author. This is why you can not legally download a mp3, a movie or a game, without having bought the rights. It's clear, simple, and easy.

But it's definitely not an issue because solutions exist :

- With the offline solution, it's your own responsability, so Frontier just don't care what you do on your computer (and don't have the rights to check what you do anyway)
- With the online solution, I already say that :

The library could be filled with :
- Music and sounds composed by the audio team of Frontier (Official content)
- Music and sounds composed by the players (UGC)

But also :
- Existing royalty free music (with "non-commercial" and "non-profit" licensing)
- Open source / Creativecommons music (if Frontier allow us to give credit to the source in the library)
- Music from partnership with artists (famous or not)
- Music from the public domain (copyright expired)

With all that, the library would quickly so full, you could not listen to all in a lifetime. [big grin]

which is a solution that can work for every creations, not only the music.

That mean, literally, thousands (and thousands) of sounds and music to use in our shared parks.

Jonny Watts :
Right from the, you know, from release. Even when you are doing your own blu-, we call them blue prints, so you've built your own coasters.

It's all going to accessed via the planet that you see on the front end of the game; and that's going to be how you share with your friends and various other people.

When we are going to do UGC, we'll use exactly the same sort of framework for that. So it will all be stored on our servers, it'll all be very, make sure it's all maintained, it won't be corrupted files, you'll be able to share it and it'll be done properly.

That's why it's going to take a bit of time to do, but we going to, as I say, first off, what you build in the game, you can share.
And thats a good step, it's all about, we are going to be supporting this game for a long long time, I hope so anyway; because I love coaster games.

Legally speaking, they will have a double responsibility :

- As the developer/publisher of the game (therefore they can not create and distribute a system allowing to download files without licenses)
- As host (and a web host is responsible for the legality of files that it hosts)

We already know how it works legally, and we already know that the solution chosen by Frontier is the "UGC Library".

Hoping having been able to answer to your questions this time.

gregorburns · Jun 13, 2016

Angelis said:
Sorry but what do you mean by "I'm like 99% sure there is no legal issue" ? and "people are diagreeeing with me" ? Huh ?
You can not agree or not, it's not a personnal opinion here, but the law. [big grin]
Every creations belongs to its author. This is why you can not legally download a mp3, a movie or a game, without having bought the rights. It's clear, simple, and easy.

But it's definitely not an issue because solutions exist :

- With the offline solution, it's your own responsability, so Frontier just don't care what you do on your computer (and don't have the rights to check what you do anyway)
- With the online solution, I already say that :

which is a solution that can work for every creations, not only the music.

That mean, literally, thousands (and thousands) of sounds and music to use in our shared parks.

Legally speaking, they will have a double responsibility :

- As the developer/publisher of the game (therefore they can not create and distribute a system allowing to download files without licenses)
- As host (and a web host is responsible for the legality of files that it hosts)

We already know how it works legally, and we already know that the solution chosen by Frontier is the "UGC Library".

Hoping having been able to answer to your questions this time.

I would also like to add to this and say that in RCT3 the custom music system streamed an mp3 file from somewhere on your computer. If custom music was to be implemented in Planet Coaster with the sharing system, the mp3 files would have to be stored with the park file, and would take up valuable space on Frontier's servers if parks were shared. I'm sure Frontier probably don't want to have their servers clogged up with people's mp3 files that could take up huge amounts of space compared with the (probably) well compressed park files that would exist without any custom content. It would be the same as the reason they don't allow us to upload images to the forum.

dalemac89 · Jun 13, 2016

gregorburns1 said:
I would also like to add to this and say that in RCT3 the custom music system streamed an mp3 file from somewhere on your computer. If custom music was to be implemented in Planet Coaster with the sharing system, the mp3 files would have to be stored with the park file, and would take up valuable space on Frontier's servers if parks were shared. I'm sure Frontier probably don't want to have their servers clogged up with people's mp3 files that could take up huge amounts of space compared with the (probably) well compressed park files that would exist without any custom content. It would be the same as the reason they don't allow us to upload images to the forum.

You're jumping to the conclusion that 'shared' means in the cloud, which may not be the case.

Angelis1 · Jun 13, 2016

dalemac89 said:
You're jumping to the conclusion that 'shared' means in the cloud, which may not be the case.

Indeed.

They can use the direct download, the cloud, and even P2P can be a solution too (each client may determine a hard drive space available for shared storage)

Anyway, it's a technical issue here.

gregorburns · Jun 13, 2016

dalemac89 said:
You're jumping to the conclusion that 'shared' means in the cloud, which may not be the case.

Fair enough. I was just assuming [big grin]

MKelley · Jun 13, 2016

As a photographer I create a photo and say someone uses the photo without my permission and they make money off the photo. I can not only demand money for copyright infringement even if I don't register with copyright laws just as long as soon as I see it bring used For commercial use. As least in the USA.

Milzbury · Jun 13, 2016

I don't see how the copyright thing comes to play here.... That's like saying you can't import your itunes music into Garageband on an iMac... Frontier wouldn't be making money off of music that the GAME PLAYER is adding in... FRONTIER isn't adding in any music that is copyrighted... The GAMER is..

If this was a legal issue, then Frontier would have had issues all over the place with RCT3... But they didn't. Mainly because the GAMER is the one adding their own music to the game, NOT Frontier.

Much like the billboard feature from RCT3... We could import our own pictures from our own computer like a McDonald's logo or whatever... It's not Frontier's decision. It's the gamer. Frontier has nothing to do with what we add to the game we already bought as it was presented.

ManiaMuse · Jun 14, 2016

Milzbury said:
I don't see how the copyright thing comes to play here.... That's like saying you can't import your itunes music into Garageband on an iMac... Frontier wouldn't be making money off of music that the GAME PLAYER is adding in... FRONTIER isn't adding in any music that is copyrighted... The GAMER is..

If this was a legal issue, then Frontier would have had issues all over the place with RCT3... But they didn't. Mainly because the GAMER is the one adding their own music to the game, NOT Frontier.

Much like the billboard feature from RCT3... We could import our own pictures from our own computer like a McDonald's logo or whatever... It's not Frontier's decision. It's the gamer. Frontier has nothing to do with what we add to the game we already bought as it was presented.

Issue is that

1) Games are probably going to be saved on the cloud (I.e. PC's own servers)

2) Sharing is going to be a major feature of the game.

Angelis1 · Jun 14, 2016

Which is not an issue by the way, just an ... evolution, a new challenge, something of our time (and tomorrow) !

"Simulation evolved" right ?

If this UGC Library is true, then I can't wait to participate and I can't wait to see/listen/use what this community of "makers" are going to create, to see all this generated content to be shared all around the world, used in blueprints, because this feature can be THE ultimate feature, making the game completely free and without limits, by connecting people together.

Few people just don't realize because their minds is still stuck in the last RCT by Frontier in 2004 (with a simple importer, made by the community), but this is wayyyyyy bigger, and can give us a power and a freedom just incredible, more than minecraft. With this feature, it's like if Frontier say "If you buy the game, we will give you the key of the castle".

I pray that they have not underestimated this aspect, but after seeing the quality of the alpha, and their "vision" about what they want to do, I am not sure, but very confident.
Just seeing "the moudular building tool" or the "voxel terrain editor" confirms that they are focused on the future, and that they see things "big".

Anyway, they do not have the choice to do it (with two and three other features) !!! Because I bet Coaster Planet would be a "15 million game", and I do not want to lose this bet. [big grin][big grin][big grin]

BigDaddy1 · Jun 14, 2016

well they could just treat it as others do. by having the creator click a box saying they own or have license for the music contained within. And if any company or group suggest otherwise and challenges that. Frontier takes down the park in question until the owner can prove he/she has the right to use that music.

Another thing I wish devs would do is just team up with third party music distributors, there are a bunch of them out there. Im sure they could get us great rates if Frontier brings the music distributor a couple hundred thousand potential customers.
Place like audio jungle below has thousands of well done music tracks, as well as countless sound effects etc. Its basically has everything we need. Make it DLC and give us special Frontier pricing so it only cost .50 cents etc and its a win win

http://audiojungle.net/category/music-kits/rock

Bitter Jeweler · Jun 14, 2016

MKelley said:
As a photographer I create a photo and say someone uses the photo without my permission and they make money off the photo. I can not only demand money for copyright infringement even if I don't register with copyright laws just as long as soon as I see it bring used For commercial use. As least in the USA.

Incorrect.

You must register copyright in order to take legal action.

From the Gubernant:

Do I have to register with your office to be protected?

No. In general, registration is voluntary. Copyright exists from the moment the work is created. You will have to register, however, if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

Do you register all your images?

Grumpka · Jun 20, 2016

I'm hoping the developers take note of another plea for custom audio!

I LOVE Planet Coaster thus far. Truly, blown away. I actually built a new i7 6700k, w gtx 1080 and a 4k monitor just to play Planet Coaster. I know you've talked about custom audio and the programming challenges that would face. I must say, the prospect that we'll never be able to add in our own audio clips or sound effects as we had in the old RCT3, is VERY disappointing to say the least. I can't even imagine spending hours, days, weeks or longer on a custom designed dark ride and not have my own audio options.

I'm just reaching out to plead with you, PLEASE reconsider adding a customer audio speaker option. I understand that 'sharing' a park with custom audio could be a concern. However, that concern would be on part of the content creator, not the software distributor. There will be a lot of broken hearts out here if we can't realize our dream of having a little bit of 'Disney's magic' in our own parks. Custom audio was one of the best parts of RCT3 and really added the needed layer of immersion that would be missing if you leave this feature out of Planet Coaster.

Thanks again for doing an awesome job on this game. I've loved theme parks since I was a kid and now as an adult, having the option to build custom parks in HD with such ease really is wonderful. Looking forward to the finish product.

Best WIshes,
Grumpka

Vampiro · Jun 20, 2016

Grumpka said:
I'm hoping the developers take note of another plea for custom audio!

I LOVE Planet Coaster thus far. Truly, blown away. I actually built a new i7 6700k, w gtx 1080 and a 4k monitor just to play Planet Coaster. I know you've talked about custom audio and the programming challenges that would face. I must say, the prospect that we'll never be able to add in our own audio clips or sound effects as we had in the old RCT3, is VERY disappointing to say the least. I can't even imagine spending hours, days, weeks or longer on a custom designed dark ride and not have my own audio options.

I'm just reaching out to plead with you, PLEASE reconsider adding a customer audio speaker option. I understand that 'sharing' a park with custom audio could be a concern. However, that concern would be on part of the content creator, not the software distributor. There will be a lot of broken hearts out here if we can't realize our dream of having a little bit of 'Disney's magic' in our own parks. Custom audio was one of the best parts of RCT3 and really added the needed layer of immersion that would be missing if you leave this feature out of Planet Coaster.

Thanks again for doing an awesome job on this game. I've loved theme parks since I was a kid and now as an adult, having the option to build custom parks in HD with such ease really is wonderful. Looking forward to the finish product.

Best WIshes,
Grumpka

It's not a matter of re-consideration as the Dev's want to add it but they face some technical difficulties. (Altough there might be some workarounds)

The last thing we officially know is that it's not in the game, but everyone (dev's and players) wants it.
So hopefully the audio Q&A convinced them how important this feature is and that it might justify to spend some time on making it happen and solve the techical difficulties (if possible).

And if not, there might be some workaround with UGC.

(I can imagine VFX boxes can also carry sound/music. If we can add more VFX boxes with music we can add our own themes... altough we can't assign them to a ride then, and every piece of music would need it's own VFX item. Far from perfect, but a nice workaround to still have our own music in the game)

And i agree, it's a very important feature as it gives a certain ride or area a specific "feeling", almost equeally important as a building theme. And in my opinion darkrides will be pretty worthless without the proper music.

But then again, i might be the biggest advocate on having custom music