Cutter Turret DPS

[JonSnowman]

So I recently achieved one of my in-game goals -> purchase a cutter and fit it out for "big ship" combat.

In other words a big, heavy, slow, shield tanking Corvette (the class not the fed ship) that I can park in the middle of CZ...whilst I zoom around in a fighter causing havoc.

I have an expert NPC crew member to pilot the mothership but given the Cutter's terrible turn rate I thought it better to go with turrets.

The problem I am having is the DPS is terrible. Like really terrible. The fighter is doing considerably more damage, and the Cutter was struggling to take down a Viper MkIV on its own.

The loadout looks like this: https://eddp.co/u/KTvtxg4o

I did experiment with 3D Cannons in the Large slots but the ammo was gone in an instant. In fact the 2F Multi-Cannons are depleting really quickly as well. In contrast the 4A Multi barely gets used at all. Probably because the enemy are never within the firing arc.

Final problem - the capacitor is getting drained by the beams pretty quickly (note I haven't engineered the Power Distributor yet).

Given how fast the kinetic ammo is going I am tempted to go for pulse or beam turrets - any advise on how the power distributor will fair with those?

The huge slot I've got no idea. Might go for a gimballed cannon knowing that its not going to get used that often.

Any advise on how to optimise the turreted damaging for this thing?

 

[Threeofseven]

I removed all turrets from my Cutter as even when OCed they were doing laughable damage. I use all gimbled multis now and it's a paper shedder.

 

[Gunnet]

Turrets have terrible DPS, period. They're okay as niche weapons (for example, in the Cutter's nacelle hardpoints to keep pressure on fighters), but awful as primary damage dealers.

Gimbals are more than enough to make up for the Cutter's turn rate. Even fixed weapons are completely viable.

I haven't experimented with lower ranked NPC pilots, since I didn't risk letting mine take the helm until he was deadly. But I suspect that the problem yours is having using gimbals stems from rank. A deadly or elite NPC doesn't seem to have trouble bringing guns to bear. On the bright side, they're easy enough to train up.

 

[JonSnowman]

Turrets have terrible DPS, period. They're okay as niche weapons (for example, in the Cutter's nacelle hardpoints to keep pressure on fighters), but awful as primary damage dealers.

Gimbals are more than enough to make up for the Cutter's turn rate. Even fixed weapons are completely viable.

I haven't experimented with lower ranked NPC pilots, since I didn't risk letting mine take the helm until he was deadly. But I suspect that the problem yours is having using gimbals stems from rank. A deadly or elite NPC doesn't seem to have trouble bringing guns to bear. On the bright side, they're easy enough to train up.

I had assumed that the turn rate was so bad that turrets would provide more dps due to time on target...but maybe that is not the case.

And it does have a lot more time on target. I can tell that from how quickly the 2F multi cannons are depleting vs the 4A Gimballed.

I guess its a cutter specific issue. The turn rate itself is gimping its DPS. Maybe G5 dirty drives and gimballed weapons is the best I can hope for?

Also would 4x M burst turret and 2x L burst turret drain the capacitor as fast as the 4x M beams?

 

[bubbabenali]

"Never go full turret"

Use them for utility with engineer mods or keeping up pressure on agile ships.
But put gimballed weapons into the large and huge hardpoints for damage.

 

[Gunnet]

I had assumed that the turn rate was so bad that turrets would provide more dps due to time on target...but maybe that is not the case.

And it does have a lot more time on target. I can tell that from how quickly the 2F multi cannons are depleting vs the 4A Gimballed.

I guess its a cutter specific issue. The turn rate itself is gimping its DPS. Maybe G5 dirty drives and gimballed weapons is the best I can hope for?

Also would 4x M burst turret and 2x L burst turret drain the capacitor as fast as the 4x M beams?

That's the logical assumption to make about turrets. But between the huge inherent damage penalty just for being turrets and the practical damage reduction from needing low enough power draw to be able to be fired constantly, it doesn't really carry over into 'reality' when you're talking about a ship's main damage dealing weapons.

Definitely get the dirty drives if you haven't already.

According to Coriolis, 4xC2 and 2xC3 burst turrets draw 7.8MW, while 4xC2 beams draw 8.6MW. Unmodded of course.

 

[Quantum Fluke]

Turret DPS was brought up since they were release, unfortunately nothing has changed. The only thing about turrets that got better is tracking, so if you hoped for a battleship kinda feel with blazing turrets, slow and sturd, I'm afraid you won't find it.

You can check here, how abysmal their damage is https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...al-Values-Test-Results-(Stage-1-–-Shield-DPS) , it is old but thermic weapons should still be accurate.

Big ships are cool, but flying them like a fighter is little bit silly and just tiresome. Hopefully they will introduce more outfitting options and buff turrets. I assume at some point FDev will revisit Scanner-turret relationship so maybe we can get something then. If they would buff them, they would need to change the mechanics of tracking so they wouldn't become op. I would like some scrambler or jammer alternative to chaff (longer CD but no ammo), better stealth options like another armor class (penalties to resists, but better heat sig).
Honestly, there are lot of options.

Question is what is FDev capable of actually delivering and honestly they better bring their A game for season 3.

 

[L.S Algir]

4 beam turrets are too much for the Cutter capacitor. I run 2 beams turrets on nacelles and it's ok but if I fire with the rest of the loadout it drops fast . Distributor is modded ( thus not at g5 but well..) .

It clearly depends on how do you want to fight with the cutter : so far I hit with my beams turrets then I try to catch the foe into my gimballed arc . However I have other efficient ships for that .

As a consequence I will use my cutter as a turret frigate and give way to the fighter to finish ships : in fact turrets are very good at removing shields . they will beginn to down the hulls , but more important they will make you take the agro so that your fighter will fire freely. It still let you one huge and 2 medium chin hardpoints : there a huge gimb MC with corrosive and 2 what you want C2 gimb may help you finish big ones ( I personnaly put missiles inthe chin C2 slots) .

As for the turrets , 2 medium beams , 1 c3 pulse emissive and 1 c3 burst scramble may be usefull. ( all with long range grade 1 or efficient)

However I have to state that I don't bring my cutter in Cz.... I have others for that.

 

[Truesilver]

Turret DPS was brought up since they were release, unfortunately nothing has changed. The only thing about turrets that got better is tracking, so if you hoped for a battleship kinda feel with blazing turrets, slow and sturd, I'm afraid you won't find it.

You can check here, how abysmal their damage is https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...al-Values-Test-Results-(Stage-1-–-Shield-DPS) , it is old but thermic weapons should still be accurate.

Hi there,

The link above kindly provided by @Quantum Fluke is to trail-blazing research conducted over two years ago by Cmdrs StarLightBreaker and Pale Night. At the time there were no Developer-provided damage stats. When they were released to us by Frontier a year ago, this historical research was completely superseded, inspirational though it was. Furthermore there have been a number of changes made to most thermal weapons since then, including to all thermal turrets (mainly that they now have better Damage Per Energy).

My thread below provides the actual, Developer-stated damage figures for every weapon in the game, is up to date for Live 2.3 and contains many extrapolations from that data as set out in the tables:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/246086-Official-FDev-Damage-Stats-for-Every-Weapon

OP, to see what your capacitor will sustain, all you need to do is take my 'EPS' (Energy Per Second) figure for each of your intended weapons, add them up and compare them to your capacitor's Wep recharge. Note that the Wep recharge is for 4 pips and the output is linear, so for 2 pips, halve it.

In that way you can see whether your weapons will drain your capacitor and how quickly.

Hope this helps,

o7

 

[Quantum Fluke]

@Truesilver

Even though it is old, DPS and EPS of thermic weapons are very similar to your findings. Example: Yours - C3 Beam T 14.4 DPS / 3,51 EPS ; Old 14,44 DPS / EPS 3,54

I only checked few of the thermic weapons (and their absolute dps) and posted the old once because of its graph, where you can see the difference more clearly. Of course, it doesn't show damage against shield and hull etc. like yours does.

Overall I think the point still stands, turrets are bad for dps and only good against weak and agile small ships with not enough chaff or as a mean to negate shield regeneration.

But yes, please refer to Truesilver's link for up to date and correct findings

 

[Agony_Aunt]

No idea why people are having problems with turrets. They work just fine for me. I have 5 MC turrets on my Beluga. Sure, the SLF is good for dealing damage, but i'm not totally dependent on it.

[video=youtube;ndvlo_Iy2pw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndvlo_Iy2pw[/video]

If i can do that in a Beluga with 5 medium hardpoints, the Cutter with its 1 huge, 2 large, and 4 mediums must be able to decimate ships easily.

PS: Expert pilot flying your main ship? Ok, its your life and time invested. Mine is dangerous and i still don't let her drive!

 

[lemny]

I love turrets. Their time on target cancels out the lesser damage IMO.
My Anaconda is fitted with 4 beam turrets for the upper arc of the ship. With an engineered capacitor and efficiency tuning on the turrets, they can fire all the time.
The underside of the ship is filled with Class 4 and 3 overcharged Multis and two small gimbal beams.
Its a kind of balance... Against small ships the turrets are a huge advantage because the time on target overcompensates the lesser damage by far.
For the larger vessels, you have to fit your maneuvering style to take advantage of the turrets but you can have nearly 100% time on target an be able to outmaneuver them while keeping them under fire much better which compensates a good part of the lesser damage... not as much as against small ships... but it's ok for me.

We are not talking about PVP and chaffing all the time... but for PVE and even chaff happy NPCs, I love this loadout because the Anaconda has the ideal weapon placement for this style and the ability to see the turrets in action gives you additional combat awareness. And I love the turrets fitted to larger vessels because they give them more sense of scale and clumsiness. An Anaconda or Corvette are not supposed to be flown like a fighter.

I would love to fly a corvette, but the weapon placement makes it only fun against very large opponents and I like to be versatile.

 

[Truesilver]

@Truesilver

Even though it is old, DPS and EPS of thermic weapons are very similar to your findings. Example: Yours - C3 Beam T 14.4 DPS / 3,51 EPS ; Old 14,44 DPS / EPS 3,54

I only checked few of the thermic weapons (and their absolute dps) and posted the old once because of its graph, where you can see the difference more clearly. Of course, it doesn't show damage against shield and hull etc. like yours does.

Overall I think the point still stands, turrets are bad for dps and only good against weak and agile small ships with not enough chaff or as a mean to negate shield regeneration.

But yes, please refer to Truesilver's link for up to date and correct findings

Thanks! I take your point, particularly about presentation, and it's a tribute to StarLightBreaker how accurate his original testing was. A shame that afaik he has not been in game for a very long time.

There are bigger differences to be found elsewhere, though. The combined turret buff and burst laser buff, for example, takes c3 turreted burst laser DPE up from 5.20 to 6.25 ... a 20% increase in DPE being a big thing to us spreadsheet crusaders, lol ...

Returning to the OP, I think perhaps a part of the problem is this: turrets have inherently poor tracking (unlike gimbals, which have super-human tracking) and are easily confused by acceleration, particularly on the part of small ships. Furthermore, not only do kinetic weapons have ammo, turreted kinetic weapons actually miss small ships as often as they hit due to travel time and the hit box being so small.

In other words, OP, if your plan is to make you in the SLF the main damage-dealer, and your NPC turreted Cutter merely the support vessel, personally I think you should be looking at efficient lasers. I think you will find that the increased time on target of a hit scan weapon makes up for any notional DPS loss - exceeds it, against small ships, in fact.

 

[Siranui]

Also would 4x M burst turret and 2x L burst turret drain the capacitor as fast as the 4x M beams?

No, it'd drain it faster.

Pulse turrets are good for keeping pressure on and helping prevent both shield regen and 'he isn't shooting at me now, I'll put 4 pips to weapons', but not really for killing things. Beam turrets meanwhile are predominantly useful for ensuring that you have no capacitor left by the time you have something in the front arc.

 

[schmicknick]

Cheers, Cmdr. ...some good thoughts on the thread.

...idk how much you might be keen to experiment at all, but one thing I had heard about was how NPC pilots do remarkably well with fixed. Just like how they never miss in a CZ when aiming at you, they perform incredibly well when using them while piloting your ships. ...so if you plan to be in the SLF, it maybe worth considering. ....tho it maybe hard to switch back and forth

...I think some efficient mods are also a good plan. The distributor being only a size 7 on the Cutter, n'all.

All the best with your flights.... o7

 

[JonSnowman]

Awesome thanks all.

@Truesilver - there is an awesome spreadsheet linked in your thread:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...UkScKFq43SO4/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1034838947

Includes both your numbers and the distributor calculation.

Based on that I am going to try 2x 3F Pulse and 4x 2F Burst Turrets.

 

[lemny]

If you take charge enhanced capacitors and efficient beams into account, you could easy use 4 (2xC2 and 2xC3) beam turrets forever. And I do this with 3 pips to weapons with only a litte to no drain on the capacitor.

Only if I use my overcharged MCs in addition to the turrets I temporally use the 4th pip to weapons.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

Turrets in general have very bad dps, this is also why MC isn't that amazing as you sacrifice a lot dps for some possibly enhanced human performance on turrets. But any ship with proper movement and hadpoint location can act like a"huge turret" and utilise gimballed or even fixed wepaons and utilise ixed and gimbal dps. kinda strange that C3 turrets for beam lasers are so massively expensive yet roast nearly any ship you put them on and have such bad dps.

beam turrets generate too much heat and eat to much capacitor which makes them not much of a nice choice in my opinion. you basically will have to use eff enrgineering on them.
atm my turret only cutter uses pulses and burst laser turrets and they are engineered for range. They don't drain the capacitor too much and can utilise the range to keep high damages up, as he long range mod is the only one alos buffing the eff range properly. It's my setup for CZ's when i don't feel like wanting to go and reammo constantly (or using materials for ammo). As much as I like beam turrets they seem to be too hot and too energy consuming in general. a single C4 beam thats not made efficient will fry your cutter already. Kinda sad.

But I would surely not give that cutter to my NPC as this one needs quite some pips in the weapons and I fear the NPC scraps my cutters shields by not beeing able to fly the ship accordingly.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

You get roughly half the damage, with less in terms of DPS because of wobble (offset with multicrew). On the plus side, massively more ToT.

For ships lacking in maneuverability, the DoT should be more favorable than fixed or gimballed.

 

[Lily from anim.o.v.e]

You get roughly half the damage, with less in terms of DPS because of wobble (offset with multicrew). On the plus side, massively more ToT.

For ships lacking in maneuverability, the DoT should be more favorable than fixed or gimballed.

but it is less about time on target it is about dps/heat/energy that matters more. When I can put out the same damage in less time I need less time on target. but then I have spare energy left for other stuff. However too long not on the target also needs losing energy generation/heatdissipation. Further ships having an easy time staying on the target are basically flying turrets but benefit form very usable non turret dps.

The issue is still dps is not linear to heat and energy consumption between turret vs gimball vs fixed ones.