David's comments about canisters in 1/10 G

[drew]

Rather surprised at David's comment in the LaveRadio interview that he thinks that 1 tonne canisters could be manhandled in 1/10 gravity. This is not realistic IMHO.

Assuming metric, a canister has a mass of 1,000kg and an effective weight of 100kg in the 1/10 centripetal G of the loading deck.

100kg is not a trivial amount to be lifting, but not impossible (though it's almost twice the average weight of a human), but the inertia of the canister is still present, the full 1,000kg. Newton's first law still applies.

You'd have to move these incredibly slowly to retain a semblance of control, because an average human of mass 60kg with an effective weight of 6kg in this environment would have very little traction. Mag boots would help of course.

Health and safety would have to keep speeds down to cms-1 otherwise you'd never be able to stop an errant canister without it doing damage to a ship or crushing a person. 1 tonne moving at even millimetres per second is enough to break bones or bend fragile undercarriage components.

The idea of doing this with multiple canisters to multiple ships without folks stepping in the way and getting squashed at any thing above a really slow crawl doesn't make sense to me. It would be a multi-person activity at the very least.

Machines would be better used to load ships I believe, with canisters firmly clamped into place at all times.

Around my nice shiny ship, no one is going to be moving canisters by hand!

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Hellhawk666]

Yes, I think he was employing a bit of poetic license there. There would certainly be many benefits to industry and manufacturing in zero g or 0.1g, but flinging 1 tonne cargo containers about would not be one of them!

 

[Darren Grey]

I took his words as an allegory rather than a real occurrence. The idea is that in general weight-moving is easier at lower Gs. The man/tonne analogy is just a way of making that more real in the mind.

I certainly have no intentions of doing such manual labour in ED myself

 

[el_tel]

Maybe he means manhandled in the sense of these:

 

[Tinman]

Maybe he means manhandled in the sense of these:

Yep, that is how I envision it anyway.

Exoskeletons should play a substantial role in the ED universe anyway due to the different amounts of gravity people are exposed to at different planets, outposts and stations. Anyone growing up on a low-G world will need assistance in some form when visiting worlds with higher gravity. Either through "DNA/biological alterations" or through mechanical means with things like exoskeletons.

 

[drew]

Moving things about in low G is actually harder in many ways, certainly more dangerous for the uninitiated. Inertia doesn't go away. Things don't weigh much, but mass is mass.

Cheers,

Drew.

 

[Tinman]

Moving things about in low G is actually harder in many ways, certainly more dangerous for the uninitiated. Inertia doesn't go away. Things don't weigh much, but mass is mass.

Cheers,

Drew.

I wouldn't say it's harder since in a high G environment you wouldn't be able to move it at all (with equal force being applied).

Inertia needs to be taken into consideration yes, but hopefully the "uninitiated" wouldn't be allowed to handle high mass objects anyway. They wouldn't be allowed on my landing pad anyway!

 

[Kerrash]

Pfft. It might be harder for imperial types that don't want to chip their nails...

 

[popuptoaster]

Pah, you'd be surprised what us manual labourers could move about with a bit of practise before H&S stuck their noses in, I used to carry two bags of dust on a shoulder up ladders all day back in my youth, get 55 gallon drums off a lorry onto the floor by hand, handball lorry loads of whatever out onto a loading dock.

you can't always get powered equipment where you need it, or get it quick enough or even afford it all, and you only have to go look at places in india or nepal where there are still mostly human powered industries to see what people are capable of.

Also bear in mind this is the future, pilots have implants so nanotech, genetic mods and implants plus some cyborg tech could easily improve dock workers goods handling abilities.

100kgs may sound a lot if you've not spent years humping crap about but really it's just technique and cooperation, going back to the old sailing ship era of work gangs at the docks.

Those canisters are round, they'd roll.

i'm 47 now and have my own business, but i spent 20 years working building sites and in warehousing, manual labour i the docks of the starport would suit many of the younger guys who just want a simple, physical job so they can afford to go drink every night after work with their mates.

they'll grow big muscles work in gangs, get drunk and fight each other and then be back at work next day.

 

[StarTux]

Pfft. It might be harder for imperial types that don't want to chip their nails...

Think of the slaves, they cost money to replace and the mess they make when they go splat.

 

[Beachlight7]

The canisters can rest on pallets and be carried on those fork lift style trolleys used in warehouses. Wouldn't friction still apply so if it was let go it wouldn't keep going, even at 1000kgs mass if it was in full contact with ground.
It would be like a small car moving at 3mph with the handbrake suddenly pulled, it would stop. Though would there be less friction by factor of 10, I dont know how it scales. Stopping distance would be less than a meter anyway I think.
The canister bases or the palletes could be made of high grip friction rubber(trade mark).

 

[Slythe]

If you actually look at the landing platforms in the video's they have what appear to be automatic loading conveyor belts that are able to bring the canisters right up to your ship. Presumably from that point your ships' internal cargo handling system can grab them and take them to the right spot in your cargo bay.

 

[-o-]

Did he say it could be manhandled by just one man ?

I'm over 100kgs and my wife manhandles me on a regular basis.

More honestly, 2-4 people can easily manhandle 100kgs ... 1000kgs may be a different matter.

... and with all the bionic impants and the genetic mods, who knows what the human body is capable of in the year 3200 .. maybe 100kgs is well within health and safety guidelines for those who are qualified (bred) to work such manual intensive jobs.

 

[Susimetsa]

I must have missed an interview - where was this comment?

 

[Susimetsa]

in the year 3200

3300, actually. But, yes, various enhancements and professional knowledge of mass vs. weight might make this possible, if not very handy.

 

[Dejay]

Health and safety would have to keep speeds down to cms-1 otherwise you'd never be able to stop an errant canister without it doing damage to a ship or crushing a person. 1 tonne moving at even millimetres per second is enough to break bones or bend fragile undercarriage components.

Seems like canisters will have a speed limit too I hoped for realistic newtonian container physics!

 

[Ixnatifual]

An office pencil neck type dude can learn to hoist up a 100kg weight from the floor easily within a few months of strength training, but strict pressing 100kg overhead requires a lot of strength. Especially with an unwieldy object like a cargo canister. Years of dedicated training required for most people.

 

[popuptoaster]

An office pencil neck type dude can learn to hoist up a 100kg weight from the floor easily within a few months of strength training, but strict pressing 100kg overhead requires a lot of strength. Especially with an unwieldy object like a cargo canister. Years of dedicated training required for most people.

if you ever worked in that kind of environment you'd learn fast, much faster than doing it at the gymn.

i used to work in a warehouse where we packed all the computers for all the Dixons in the UK.

they came in in separate boxes a PC in one box and a 15" CRT monitor in another box.

we used to run a production line with taller boxes the same footpint down the centre of the line and rows of pallets of monitors one side and PCs the other.

A guy on the PC side would go down the line dropping Pcs from the pallets into the boxes and i'd go down my side dropping in monitors, another lad would follow down taping up the boxes then another couple would stck them on pallets.

you had the drop the boxes in square or the corners would dig in and they'd get stuck so i basically spent my 12 hour shift doing heavy reps, my core, arms and shoulders were really strong.

we used to get agency guys in who couldnt cope no matter how big they were, you had to start on the easier jobs but once you'd been there a month or so you could just do the job without thinking, laughing and joking while you were at it.

I think the same would be true in the Elite docks, you'd get a class of guys who were tough and worked together as a team really well and the new guys would work the easier jobs to start with but would get pushed into the harder ones really quick, and anyone who couldn't cope just wouldn't come back to work one morning.

 

[Ixnatifual]

Yeah but you won't learn to press 100kg overhead by lifting comparatively light hardware, even if you build up endurance/toughness to do it for a lotta "reps." I used to have a giant 19" CRT but it only weighed 23kg. I imagine those monitors being lighter than that being only 15". After a point using the same weight builds only endurance rather than strength. A person could overhead press that CRT of mine for hours every day for years and years and not learn to press 50kg let alone 100.

But then again I'm not sure why you would need to press it overhead. Probably just a bad example from Braben.

 

[popuptoaster]

Yeah but you won't learn to press 100kg overhead by lifting comparatively light hardware, even if you build up endurance/toughness to do it for a lotta "reps." I used to have a giant 19" CRT but it only weighed 23kg. I imagine those monitors being lighter than that being only 15". After a point using the same weight builds only endurance rather than strength. A person could overhead press that CRT of mine for hours every day for years and years and not learn to press 50kg let alone 100.

But then again I'm not sure why you would need to press it overhead. Probably just a bad example from Braben.

Monitors were just an example that i had an experience of, the same would be true of anything you handled everyday.

I have worked on sites shifting heavier gear, look at what hod carriers can do, keep three brickies going with bricks and mortar if they are any good.

I'm 6'6" and used to be able to work all day humping stuff about, have seen much smaller guys doing incredible amounts of lifting.

I got told my first day on site back when i was about 16, never to **** off an old labourer, no matter how small he was 'cos his muscles would be rock hard and he'd flatten me with one hit.

i'm not saying cargo handling would be a pleasant restful job, but it wouldn't have pleasant restful people doing it!

i used to be able to stand on the front wings of a Cortina and using a rope, lift a Pinto engine out of it by myself reasonably easily and they weigh 135kgs, couldn't have got that over me head though, no way.