Debuffs are weird in ED

[Chaparral]

I've played quite a few other games including those with well-developed PVP and WVW.

In those games, there are conditions applications that temporarily debuff the opponent.

Typical debuffs do the following:

Reduce health regeneration rate
Reduce movement rate
Reduce armor effectiveness
Lock the opponent in position
Prevent or reduce skill recharge
Apply damage over time
Lock out a skill or item

In those games, the debuffs can be responded to in a variety of ways:

A skill or item can clear the debuff
A skill or item can temporarily render the target immune to the debuff
A skill or item can diminish the time the debuff is applied
A skill or item can transfer the debuff to another target

In ED, the debuffs can be overwhelmingly powerful, with extremely limited counters:

Shields turned off (ecm, point defense (heh) or screening shell counter...good luck if you're not combat trained in these tactics and can't anticipate their application)
Target movement severely nerfed
Target escape nullified (perma-stun lock) - (again ecm, point defense (heh), or screening shell)
Random systems turned off (this debuff can be applied repeatedly with no counter)
Target lock lost (this debuff can be applied repeatedly with no counter)
Target overheated (all systems trashed without heatsink)

In other games, the use of a counter is as easy as using any other basic skill.

Possibly I'm wrong here, but I don't think the counters in ED are as effective as the debuffs, nor can they be applied as easily as the debuffs can be applied.

This imbalance IMO contributes to ganking mechanics, and to the reason why average players are not willing to venture into Open settings.

Let me be perfectly clear, there is NOTHING WRONG WITH PEOPLE THAT USE DEBUFFS IN ED! They are playing the game as designed.

My point is about the debuff design. Period.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

I agree with your general points - I don't particularly like the existence of most of the specials (with Emissive being a particularly unbalancing one since it completely shuts down all stealth-based tactics). I think you are missing some counters or mitigations, though.

Shields turned off (ecm, point defense (heh) or screening shell counter...good luck if you're not combat trained in these tactics and can't anticipate their application)

Or be fast enough to outrun a torpedo, which is not hard even for the slower ships.

Target movement severely nerfed

Marginally so. If they're at 4-0-2 anyway it has no effect, and it doesn't prevent boost or cap recharge.

Target escape nullified (perma-stun lock) - (again ecm, point defense (heh), or screening shell)

It's not perma-lock - the cooldown on it is longer than the time needed to reboot the FSD then high-wake. You can permanently prevent a low-wake with it if you have the masslock advantage.

It's also a dumbfire missile, which is one of the easier weapons to dodge.

Random systems turned off

Only works when shields are already down, at which point your attacker can just start targeting non-random subsystems with missiles, cannons or railguns and cause you serious pain anyway.

Target lock lost (this debuff can be applied repeatedly with no counter)

Only really a serious issue for gimbal weapons and seeker missiles - fixed weapons it's much less annoying for, and fire-at-will turrets are unaffected.

It also only appears on the plasma accelerator, which is relatively easy for most ships to dodge.

Target overheated

This one has been nerfed to the point where it can't directly overheat you - though it can make you overheat yourself. Can be countered by heatsinks and briefly tipping over 100% won't cause serious damage.

 

[Chaparral]

Your analysis of debuff responses is clearly a voice of knowledge and experience with the specific mechanics of ED.

In other games, the process of debuff avoidance or clearance is much more overt.

A new, or average player is most likely to be hit by several debuffs almost simultaneously, in addition to blistering dps.

Imagine a new player - just got interdicted, spinning around after failed interdiction minigame.

The new player is flying 2-2-2, because that is the default energy distribution. The interdicting player is running g5 dds, gets right on top of the player, and drops a shield killer at close range while unloading loads of dps. Then comes the FSD bomb, target lock lost, systems wacked by super penetrator or scramble spec, then continuous heat and corrosive armor debuff attacks.

There is not a module or utility or weapon slot that can be filled with an item that clears debuffs or grants temporary immunity from debuffs or effectively moderates debuffs. You can respond to an individual debuff mechanic in a limited way, but not multiples simultaneously. This lopsidedness is not what you would see in other MMOs...

 

[Bill Clement]

Basically, unless your ship is engineered to the max, the griefer gets to one shot you.

It's been this way almost from the start.

At first griefers turned up in bigger, combat orientated builds. That was difficult for even a skilled player in a more rounded build to counter. The reply from the griefer fraternity was 'git gud or go solo'.

Then wings came along and they appeared gang handed, which was just hilariously great fun to be on the receiving end of. Even flying around in a battleship didn't help. The reply from the griefer crowd was 'zomg, combat logging is totes the biggest issue in this game, sometimes our victims don't hang around to get bent over for their surprise lovin'.

Now we have engineering mods that allow griefers to kill their victim before they can take any evasive action. The griefer fraternity reply was 'open shud be the only mode, we don't have any victims anymore'.

Crime and punishment, karma and much hand wringing from FD hasn't and won't affect the kind of low life who get their jollies picking on new players or those in weaker ships. Their ridiculous focus on 'improving' combat mechanics when so much of the game has been ignored for years has brought us to a place where the griefers are about to be rewarded with open only benefits to try and get more players into their game mode.
That won't work, either.
What will happen is when solo and pg players get treated like second class customers they're going to look elsewhere.

Elite is a niche game at the best of times. Handing massive advantages to attacking players without any realistic counters being made available to their targets has victimised new players, casuals and those who want to explore the game's many other options. The latest attempt to get some of the most dedicated pve players into open is typical FD. They listened to the pew pew arguments and refused to even countenance the notion that there might be a griefing problem with their open game mode.

I don't want to discourage you Danicus, but this is the way Elite Dangerous has been heading from the start. I suggest heavily engineering your own ships and recommend any new players keep well away from the rest of us until they're able to do the same. Or join a player group...

 

[znôrt]

Only really a serious issue for gimbal weapons and seeker missiles - fixed weapons it's much less annoying for, and fire-at-will turrets are unaffected.

you mean hitscan fixed weapons.

It's been this way almost from the start.

no, it wasn't. in those times all you needed to do was fly to a reasonably well supplied station, equip yourself and, well, start gitting gud.

now, on top of that you have to unlock most engineers, level them up and upgrade module after module, not to mention having to learn about all those tweaks, which randomly change every other update, in external sites. this put an entire stretch of repetitive gameplay between the aspiring pilot and the half seasoned pvp brawler, or the mere survivalist.

this is a complete game changer. in fact it was what made me loose all interest in pvp in this game, which never had a particularly good mechanic, but was at least fun and accessible.

'engineers' was expected to allow customization, building on the existing mechanics. instead it became a whole minigame of its own wedged into the open experience. i can't say if op's claims about debuffs are accurate, but there must be something clearly broken in a mechanic when damage buffs of nearly 100% are a thing.