Newcomer / Intro Deep space Exploration/Mining

Greetings CMDRs!

So I'm having a blast back in the black, and I'm already planning my next build and wanted to pick your brains for some pointers.

The first of my ships I came back to was my Keelback, now fitted out as an armoured search & rescue vessel for occasional tours of the Pleiades. After a week of that I jumped back into a DBX which I've designated as a 'long range reconnaissance vessel', essentially trying to be a short/mid range explorer-combat hybrid... even though it's got paper shields and cardboard armour I'm enjoying the attack helicopter look of it and the large underslung multicannon is bags of fun! I've just had a quick swan about the Coalsack Nebula in said DBX, taking in the sights and paying for the loadout with some fresh cartography data. Next I'll lay in a course for Farseer Inc. and start doing this engineering business, and pin the extended range FSD blueprint so I can start engineering my modest fleet. Which brings my up to my next adventure...

I've got an Asp Explorer gathering dust now at my home base in Alioth. It was the pride of my fleet when I originally upgraded my DBX for it, mainly coz it was the most 'spensive vessel I own! What can I say, I'm a man of modest means and dreams... anyhow, it's got me thinking, you see I've never ever EVER tried mining. I know it's a sci fi staple, and I've heard all the horror stories about the mega-rich with their void opals and low-temp diamonds and the exploits, and all the NERF MINING NOW/UN-NERF MINING NOW threads on here. But it's just never appealed to me.

Now however we've got a flotilla of CMDR owned Fleet Carriers littering the galaxy, and things like the DSSA sound awesome. I also want to try some proper long-distance exploring, like visiting SagA* and Colonia, and seeing what lies so far outside of the bubble. I thought that, thematically, a 'deep space surveyor' hybrid Explorer/Miner would be a fun twist, and I'd be able to gather useful goods while exploring to sell to Fleet Carriers by way of gratitude for their refit/refuel services out in the black. Perhaps I can even help with the tritium shortages if I come across any, I'm a generous guy and I'd probably be happy just to donate that.

Question the first; how practical is a long range explorer/mining hybrid build, and is the AspE a decent fit? I want to love my Asp again, and I'm not fussed about min-maxing. It doesn't have to be the perfect explorer or miner, it just has to get me to reasonably distant places and blow up rocks in case I get bored.

Question the second; having never swung a pickaxe (or mining laser or whatever) in the game, what is the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM loadout for a casual miner? If I use the class 6 and 5 slots for cargo that's 96t and without engineering I think I can still squeeze a 30ly jump range out. Obviously as an explorer I'll have a DSS, SRV hangar, obligatory AMFU... but what does the miner need? Prospector limpets? Refinery? What hardpoint loadouts should I be considering?


Thanks for any advice fellow space jockeys!

CMDR Achtung-Goomba
 
I have a Python, granted not the cheapest ship in the galaxy, but with current inflation being what it is and how much you can get with just Painite mining in your AspX until you can buy the Python (won't be long, I assure you), it's not an impossible or even long term goal anymore.

I got my Python as an upgrade from my AspX which I absolutely loved, even though I had her fitted out as a Swiss Army Knife so she really wasn't awesome at anything, but more than good enough for whatever I needed. The Python, on the other hand, remains my favorite Swiss Army Knife. She's still not the best at any particular role, but she's more than adequate at any role you might choose (excluding PvP) due to the increased space in her. Only downside is her lower jump range, but even my combat fitted explorer/trader Python can do 40 LY no problem (engineered with a Guardian FSD booster).

The Krait shares a lot of traits with the Python and since it sounds like you might be more interested in a pure mining/exploration kind of build without the trade/PvE factor (although the Kraits are great at that too), you might want to consider the Krait Phantom, for instance, instead. Great ship for what you have in mind.

Anyway. The only thing you really need to engineer for what you're thinking of is the FSD and the thrusters. The former for range, the latter for maneuverability when mining. Hardpoints are more than sufficient on both the Python and the Krait.

For mining, what you want is some cargo space for what you mine (and limpets), a refinery, absolutely necessary or your fragments won't be worth squat, a collector limpet controller and a prospector limpet controller (the last one optional, but it does increase your mining output dramatically). Hardpoints? Depends on how you want to mine. Mining lasers for the basic stuff, displacement missiles for SSDs, and Abrasion blasters/Seismic charge launchers for core mining. That's a minimum of four hardpoints if you want to cover all, but you don't have to.

Pure explo/mining you don't need weapons, so you'll have enough hardpoints for all, but it does add mass and detracts from your jump range. I'd just go mining laser if you're out in the black because you don't have to replenish those with space stations/carriers.

You DO want, if you're really serious about boldly going etc. an AFMU to fix your modules and perhaps a repair limpet controller to fix your hull on occasion if you're away for really long, but with the DSSA initiative, you may very well be able to do without once they're all in place.

I hope this helps, CMDR, fly boldly!

o7
 
I have a Python, granted not the cheapest ship in the galaxy, but with current inflation being what it is and how much you can get with just Painite mining in your AspX until you can buy the Python (won't be long, I assure you), it's not an impossible or even long term goal anymore.

I got my Python as an upgrade from my AspX which I absolutely loved, even though I had her fitted out as a Swiss Army Knife so she really wasn't awesome at anything, but more than good enough for whatever I needed. The Python, on the other hand, remains my favorite Swiss Army Knife. She's still not the best at any particular role, but she's more than adequate at any role you might choose (excluding PvP) due to the increased space in her. Only downside is her lower jump range, but even my combat fitted explorer/trader Python can do 40 LY no problem (engineered with a Guardian FSD booster).

The Krait shares a lot of traits with the Python and since it sounds like you might be more interested in a pure mining/exploration kind of build without the trade/PvE factor (although the Kraits are great at that too), you might want to consider the Krait Phantom, for instance, instead. Great ship for what you have in mind.

Anyway. The only thing you really need to engineer for what you're thinking of is the FSD and the thrusters. The former for range, the latter for maneuverability when mining. Hardpoints are more than sufficient on both the Python and the Krait.

For mining, what you want is some cargo space for what you mine (and limpets), a refinery, absolutely necessary or your fragments won't be worth squat, a collector limpet controller and a prospector limpet controller (the last one optional, but it does increase your mining output dramatically). Hardpoints? Depends on how you want to mine. Mining lasers for the basic stuff, displacement missiles for SSDs, and Abrasion blasters/Seismic charge launchers for core mining. That's a minimum of four hardpoints if you want to cover all, but you don't have to.

Pure explo/mining you don't need weapons, so you'll have enough hardpoints for all, but it does add mass and detracts from your jump range. I'd just go mining laser if you're out in the black because you don't have to replenish those with space stations/carriers.

You DO want, if you're really serious about boldly going etc. an AFMU to fix your modules and perhaps a repair limpet controller to fix your hull on occasion if you're away for really long, but with the DSSA initiative, you may very well be able to do without once they're all in place.

I hope this helps, CMDR, fly boldly!

o7

That’s a good start thanks, o7

I’ve considered a Krait as my next upgrade but it’s a bit pricey for what I can afford, and my play style is fairly casual so credits don’t exactly roll in.

I’m about to start work but I’ll have a goosey at some mining guides where I can to see if can get some more ideas. I’d forgotten all about collector limpets, don’t want to have to scoop up everything manually!
 
I’ve considered a Krait as my next upgrade but it’s a bit pricey for what I can afford, and my play style is fairly casual so credits don’t exactly roll in.

I’m about to start work but I’ll have a goosey at some mining guides where I can to see if can get some more ideas. I’d forgotten all about collector limpets, don’t want to have to scoop up everything manually!
The money is, I agree, an issue. But go Painite mining, it hasn't been hit by the recent disaster as far as I know, and you'll have your Krait in no time. And you're right, you definitely do NOT want to go manually picking up fragments. That was the only way to do it when I started playing ED 6 years ago, and what put me off mining for seemingly ever, until I got back after my hiatus and had to to unlock Selene Jean.

Then I discovered that mining, with the new tools, was actually kind of fun, if it wasn't for the obscene amounts of funds you could make with them, making everything else seem silly. Fortunately, that's being addressed, albeit ineffectually at the moment, but they'll probably get it right at some point.
 
Oh, and don't let anybody convince you to not put shields on your exploration vessel, particularly if you intend to do mining.

Don't waste a huge slot or a mess of mass on it, just put a bumper on it, a 3D will do nicely or even less. You WILL bump into stuff, even the occasional slightly rough landing on a planet, and a bump to your shield costs you nothing in hull, doesn't require repairs since it regenerates automatically.

This matters when the nearest repair station is a thousand light years away if you're lucky.
 
Oh, and don't let anybody convince you to not put shields on your exploration vessel, particularly if you intend to do mining.

Don't waste a huge slot or a mess of mass on it, just put a bumper on it, a 3D will do nicely or even less. You WILL bump into stuff, even the occasional slightly rough landing on a planet, and a bump to your shield costs you nothing in hull, doesn't require repairs since it regenerates automatically.

This matters when the nearest repair station is a thousand light years away if you're lucky.

Yes! I’ve started playing Open only on my return to the game for the last few weeks, though I might be cheeky and switch to Solo for the last couple jumps to Deciat... I’ve heard things about engineering systems and don’t want to lose my modest UC data that covers the cost of my recent refit!

Part of Open only for me was the fact that highly specialised builds have a vulnerability, especially with no shields, which is why I kitted my DBX attack helicopter so it can at least try and hit back or survive long enough to run. It adds an extra element of excitement, but I’ve no illusions that I won’t last long if a dedicated PvP CMDR sets his/her sights on me!

These sort of hybrid builds let me dabble in different playstyles if I get worn out too.
 
Part of Open only for me was the fact that highly specialised builds have a vulnerability, especially with no shields, which is why I kitted my DBX attack helicopter so it can at least try and hit back or survive long enough to run. It adds an extra element of excitement, but I’ve no illusions that I won’t last long if a dedicated PvP CMDR sets his/her sights on me!
A dedicated PvP'er probably won't gank you, they like a challenge but they also respect somebody who puts an effort into it, at least that's been my experience in Open, and I like Open too because of the excitement and, more than that, the opportunity to actually communicate with other commanders.

The griefers, on the other hand. Well, they're a tiny minority doing more damage than anything else to the game by pushing players into Solo/PG (and then crying like babies because nobody wants to be blown up by their over-engineered FdLs), but they are a nuisance and a rather pathetic one at that. Still, I wouldn't risk months out in the black on the off-chance that I ran into a griefing murder hobo with, ahem, "other, more personal issues", ruining it all just for the lulz. His inadequacies are his problems, I don't intend to make them mine.

Just keep in mind that when you're unloading your explo-data, you're actually helping the influence of the faction that you're selling them to, so try not to unload it in contested systems, because keeping you from doing that is, actually (in my opinion at least), a valid reason for blowing you up for somebody working PP/BGS and definitely not something done "just for the lulz".
 
An explorer/miner hybrid is possible but there are issues to be aware of.

  • The more cargo you collect the worse your jump range will become, you can counter this with a big refinery, small cargo hold and starting out loaded with limpets.
  • If you mine within a few hundred light years of any permanently inhabited systems you are likely to get a visit from pirates as soon as you drop into a ring, they will attack if you have any cargo other than limpets aboard, making your ship combat capable enough to deal with them as well as exploring and mining will be difficult or expensive probably both.
  • You aren’t going to have enough slots, which is normal.
Minimum mining equipment for engineering materials is one mining laser, if you want to mine stuff to trade or sell the minimum is one mining laser plus a refinery plus a cargo hold, you will need to scoop fragments yourself.
If you add a Collector Limpet controller fragment collection gets quicker, the more limpets at a time the better, a Prospector Limpet controller will let you find out what is in the rock and boost the output from that rock.

Your AspX could explore and mine built like this.
 
An explorer/miner hybrid is possible but there are issues to be aware of.

  • The more cargo you collect the worse your jump range will become, you can counter this with a big refinery, small cargo hold and starting out loaded with limpets.
  • If you mine within a few hundred light years of any permanently inhabited systems you are likely to get a visit from pirates as soon as you drop into a ring, they will attack if you have any cargo other than limpets aboard, making your ship combat capable enough to deal with them as well as exploring and mining will be difficult or expensive probably both.
  • You aren’t going to have enough slots, which is normal.
Minimum mining equipment for engineering materials is one mining laser, if you want to mine stuff to trade or sell the minimum is one mining laser plus a refinery plus a cargo hold, you will need to scoop fragments yourself.
If you add a Collector Limpet controller fragment collection gets quicker, the more limpets at a time the better, a Prospector Limpet controller will let you find out what is in the rock and boost the output from that rock.

Your AspX could explore and mine built like this.

Thanks CMDR! That’s a cracking build to start, and well within reach. Will the lack of an AMFU be crippling for lengthy journeys? Hopefully the small shield will protect my hull and modules from taking a beating.

Once I’ve got back home via Deciat I might fit out the Asp and see how she goes.
 
My suggestion would be to save up for an Anaconda. IMO It's probably the best ship for all your needs, but you need a lot of credits to get one in the first place and kit it out. Failing that, the Python or Krait are good choices as well.
 
An explorer/miner hybrid is possible but there are issues to be aware of.

  • The more cargo you collect the worse your jump range will become, you can counter this with a big refinery, small cargo hold and starting out loaded with limpets.
  • If you mine within a few hundred light years of any permanently inhabited systems you are likely to get a visit from pirates as soon as you drop into a ring, they will attack if you have any cargo other than limpets aboard, making your ship combat capable enough to deal with them as well as exploring and mining will be difficult or expensive probably both.
  • You aren’t going to have enough slots, which is normal.
Minimum mining equipment for engineering materials is one mining laser, if you want to mine stuff to trade or sell the minimum is one mining laser plus a refinery plus a cargo hold, you will need to scoop fragments yourself.
If you add a Collector Limpet controller fragment collection gets quicker, the more limpets at a time the better, a Prospector Limpet controller will let you find out what is in the rock and boost the output from that rock.

Your AspX could explore and mine built like this.
Not bad. This build really illustrates the biggest challenge of mixing the mining role with other tasks - it takes a lot of module slots. This is a bare minimum build, low on cargo space and very short on collection limpets, and even so you've already had to sacrifice the AFMU. Which means no speeding things up with neutron boosting. And a note about technique: normally mining is very heavy on limpet consumption. In deep space, however, you will want to conserve them as much as possible. Only fire prospectors at promising rocks (use the mining laser to prospect by chipping one chunk off each candidate rock, and/or get good at reading the pulse wave). Only deploy one or two collectors only when needed (SSD is also good for this since it produces fewer richer fragments). Because unless you want to take the jump range hit of dragging them all the way from the last station, or stick to mining near bases/carriers with resupply services, you'll be using materials to synthesize limpets four at a time.

Personally I would fill the medium hardpoints with a mining laser and a class 2 SSD missile launcher. Reason being that with the AspX's small distributor you'll have trouble running two mining lasers full time anyway, while the SSDs will be more effective at harvesting Tritium. Out in the black Tritium is probably going to be the most commonly sought commodity at carriers.

Note that simply by unlocking Farseer you can upgrade your FSD to the max (materials permitting) and also get that thruster engineering done up to G3. Although if you're going to unlock just one engineer I'd actually recommend Martuuk. Then you can punch up your FSD, thrusters, AND shields in one go.
 
Thanks CMDR! That’s a cracking build to start, and well within reach. Will the lack of an AMFU be crippling for lengthy journeys? Hopefully the small shield will protect my hull and modules from taking a beating.

Once I’ve got back home via Deciat I might fit out the Asp and see how she goes.
Thank you.

Your need for an AMFU will depend on how you travel, if you just jump normally you would need some serial bad luck to make it essential, however if you boost jump using neutron stars or much worse white dwarfs the cumulative damage will soon cause problems without one.
 
Thank you.

Your need for an AMFU will depend on how you travel, if you just jump normally you would need some serial bad luck to make it essential, however if you boost jump using neutron stars or much worse white dwarfs the cumulative damage will soon cause problems without one.

Ah, well that explains why dedicated pioneers always carry one (or two for double redundancy I’ve heard!). I actually slapped two on my DBX because I’d heard it’s the thing to do, but I’ve never actually neutron-boosted yet and I’m honestly a little scared to try...

I’m going to try out the Asp build suggested by aRJay above, perhaps with a couple of guns on the small hardpoints to help deter piracy, I’ve read that fighting back against NPC pirates causes them to take evasive action which helps your own escape attempt. Although, to be honest, while I consider myself a barely competent pilot even my Keelback only ever has to submit to an NPC interdiction if I actually want to. That said, I don’t want to get caught with my pants down and mining laser out as it were so I’ll take the jump range hit for security purposes.

I’m interested in a future Krait build. I know the Python always seems to pop up as the jack-of-all-trades ship, but if I’m right at least one of the Kraits can fit a SLF hangar which I could use for screening and leave the guns at home while I mine. I can also imagine whizzing about rings in a pocket rocket is a fun diversion if I fancy a lark!

If I get along with a hybrid mining/exploring build I’m hoping to fund a dedicated combat ship, so no doubt I’ll be back in a week or so asking for more build advice. It’s great to find such a helpful and experienced community still active this long into the game’s life (y)

And as for trying to stay in Open play as much as I can dare, it is all about the role play and community play potential. It’s fun to play my own game in a vast shared sandbox, even if I’ve never yet met another CMDR I’m hopeful that the eventual first meeting will be positive!

Thanks for the advice CMDRs, you’ve all been super helpful! I’ve got an appointment to keep at Farseer Inc. and some mining guides to read through but once the DSS Henry Bolckow is operational I’ll try and repay the advice with tritium deliveries if you’ve got fleet carriers out in the black.


Keep flying CMDRs!

CMDR Achtung-Goomba
Deep Space Surveyor Henry Bolckow
 
I’m going to try out the Asp build suggested by aRJay above, perhaps with a couple of guns on the small hardpoints to help deter piracy, I’ve read that fighting back against NPC pirates causes them to take evasive action which helps your own escape attempt. Although, to be honest, while I consider myself a barely competent pilot even my Keelback only ever has to submit to an NPC interdiction if I actually want to. That said, I don’t want to get caught with my pants down and mining laser out as it were so I’ll take the jump range hit for security purposes.

I’m interested in a future Krait build. I know the Python always seems to pop up as the jack-of-all-trades ship, but if I’m right at least one of the Kraits can fit a SLF hangar which I could use for screening and leave the guns at home while I mine. I can also imagine whizzing about rings in a pocket rocket is a fun diversion if I fancy a lark!

I second the Krait option for the future, especially the Phantom - I love mine to pieces.

aRJay has a good point. If you're mining in the black and have cargo, you'll be bothered as soon as you hit a ring near civilization. It won't be an interdiction because you won't be in SC, so be prepared to give em hell!

o7
 
I second the Krait option for the future, especially the Phantom - I love mine to pieces.

aRJay has a good point. If you're mining in the black and have cargo, you'll be bothered as soon as you hit a ring near civilization. It won't be an interdiction because you won't be in SC, so be prepared to give em hell!

o7


Oh you betcha... if I’ve sacrificed jump range for that cargo I’m damn well going to fight to keep it!

My DBX picked up a couple of occupied escape pods early on the route to the Coalsack, and now I’m nearing Deciat it seems that every NPC wants to snatch them. I’ll be damned if I’m going to let those poor lost souls be sold into slavery or worse, they can just stay sleeping until I can drop them at a station.
 
Ah, well that explains why dedicated pioneers always carry one (or two for double redundancy I’ve heard!). I actually slapped two on my DBX because I’d heard it’s the thing to do, but I’ve never actually neutron-boosted yet and I’m honestly a little scared to try...
Neutrons are fine, they have a very small exclusion zone, so as long as you enter the cone at an angle and do so in the furthest half of it or so, you'll be perfectly fine.

But you do need the AFMU for that. As to the number of them, I used to be like you, having two of them, just in case (redundancy has been drilled into my head throughout my life), but now I don't bother. A) I've yet to have one break on me and B) the counter-argument, "but you need an extra on super long travels to fix the slow buildup of damage on the other one", which, while sensible on its face, will apply to the Power Plant as well, which you can't repair even if you have half a dozen AFMUs (they need power, and you have to shut down the Power Plant to repair it).

TL;DR, I only bring one now. :)
 
Your AspX could explore and mine built like this.

Hello again CMDRs!

After my initial appointment at Farseer Inc. I've started delving into engineering (good heavens is that going to be a rabbit hole, with all those experimental effects and whatnot!) and finally fitted a wake scanner to my DBX so I can start farming for the data I'll need for the FSD upgrades. Once I've got sufficient upgrade materials stored I'll head back to Alioth, refit the AspX, jump back in the DBX and scoot over to Deciat and have my fleet transferred there for some upgrading.

Thank you kindly for your build suggestion, I'm sure you're much more knowledgable than me but I've made some modifications as per other suggestions and for my own tastes; Deep Space Surveyor Henry Bolckow

Personally I would fill the medium hardpoints with a mining laser and a class 2 SSD missile launcher. Reason being that with the AspX's small distributor you'll have trouble running two mining lasers full time anyway, while the SSDs will be more effective at harvesting Tritium. Out in the black Tritium is probably going to be the most commonly sought commodity at carriers.

As per your suggestion I swapped one of the mining lasers for an SSD rack, I've never tried mining before but I figured a variety of methods to learn wouldn't hurt. I have been landing relatively frequently for a bit of SRV rallying and material gathering so I'm not too concerned about synthesising extra limpets/ammo but as I venture out of the Bubble I'll find out exactly how sustainable that is. I added the two gimballed and two turreted small MC for defence against NPC pirates, to make them think twice while I low/high wake outta there. I also increased the size of the powerplant, just to avoid being caught short though I am aware it will impact my jump range. I also noted that with such a weak shield the bi-weaves will recharge much faster, so I thought that would be beneficial for surviving.

I noticed the build originally suggested didn't fit a pulse wave analyser, but I think I'll fit one if only to see how they work. Is there a reason, other than power supply/extra weight that you wouldn't need one? I might fit a couple of PDT to the empty utility slots in case anyone tries to pick the lock on my cargo hatch.

On paper, I'm happy with the unengineered 30ly range though I know once my hold is full the second leg of the journey will be slower, but that's just how it'll be. Once I turn the rocks into credits they'll weigh less ;)


Thanks again CMDRs, your continued assistance is terribly helpful, I feel like this is a long term learning experience! Who'd have thought spaceships were so complicated, eh?
 
You only need the Pulse Wave Scanner to highlight the rocks with core, sun-surface and surface deposits which require Seismic Charges, Sub-Surface Missiles and Abrasion Blasters respectively. Identifying worthwhile rocks, especially cores, is something that takes time in part because how they shine is dependent on your graphics settings and hardware to some extent as well as in game choices such as night vision.
 
As per your suggestion I swapped one of the mining lasers for an SSD rack, I've never tried mining before but I figured a variety of methods to learn wouldn't hurt. I have been landing relatively frequently for a bit of SRV rallying and material gathering so I'm not too concerned about synthesising extra limpets/ammo but as I venture out of the Bubble I'll find out exactly how sustainable that is. I added the two gimballed and two turreted small MC for defence against NPC pirates, to make them think twice while I low/high wake outta there. I also increased the size of the powerplant, just to avoid being caught short though I am aware it will impact my jump range. I also noted that with such a weak shield the bi-weaves will recharge much faster, so I thought that would be beneficial for surviving.

I noticed the build originally suggested didn't fit a pulse wave analyser, but I think I'll fit one if only to see how they work. Is there a reason, other than power supply/extra weight that you wouldn't need one? I might fit a couple of PDT to the empty utility slots in case anyone tries to pick the lock on my cargo hatch.
If you're bringing the SSD launcher then you definitely want the PWA, because that's what you'll use to identify rocks that have subsurface deposits.

If you've got Felicity unlocked now, one good use for those extra utility slots would be a pair of E-grade shield boosters. Out of the box, E-grade weigh almost nothing and use very little power, but also do almost nothing. However, Felicity can apply G1 Heavy Duty/Super Cap to them, and together they'll boost your shield strength by almost a third. And while you're there, its worthwhile to mod the power plant with either G1 Armored or G1 Low Emissions (depending on if you'd rather have a little extra power and slightly better heat efficiency, or sacrifice a little power for much better heat efficiency).

I wouldn't worry to much about PDTs personally - with that build, if anyone comes after your cargo you're going to want to run away very fast. NPC pirates at least usually shoot first, launch hatch breakers later. Similarly, I'm not too excited about the MC turrets. The AspX is blessed with forward, centrally mounted hardpoints - this makes for good convergence and coverage of targets in front of you. However, that means that enemies pursuing you will frequently be in the turrets' blind spots. If you have to turn to face a target to shoot them anyway, you'll get better damage just using gimballed guns instead. I'd go with a pair of gimballed MCs and a pair of gimballed pulse lasers. It's a classic loadout for a reason: mix of damage types, low power use, and (importantly for deep space operation) one of them doesn't have ammo that runs out.
 
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