[Design Flaw] Retaliating with report crimes off option makes you a criminal

[dot]

Since I've discovered in my other thread that retaliating with "report crimes" option off against a "clean" attacker makes you a criminal, I wanted to get some clarification of this mechanic. Per design document:


Right to Retaliate

• When a commander is the victim of a major crime within a jurisdiction they automatically receive the right to retaliate:
  • Their ship automatically scans the perpetrator, giving them knowledge of the outstanding bounties in the current jurisdiction
  • They count as a witness and automatically transmit the crime to the factional authority controlling the jurisdiction
  • They are allowed to attack the perpetrator with impunity in any jurisdiction controlled by the same factional authority as where the crime was witnessed and reported
• The right to retaliate does not grant immunity from prosecution in jurisdictions controlled by different factional authorities
• Note: If the commander is attacked in a jurisdiction that does not recognize the crime, the commander does not gain the right to retaliate!
• In unregulated space no crime is ever committed and any form of retaliation is acceptable

Here there are 2 different factors of a crime: witnessing a crime and reporting a crime. What the hell is the difference? Because there seems to be none in the game.

Here's the situation: 2 "clean" players, #1 has report crimes on and attacks the other #2 that has report crimes off. #2 clearly witnessed a crime, right? So #2 should be able to retaliate with impunity right? Wrong. He will get fined and a wanted status because #1 has report crimes on even both witnessed a crime and #2 was retaliating. Apparently the part about being a witness and reporting to the authorities doesn't work if reporting crimes is turned off. So witnessing a crime = reporting a crime.

According to the design document there is a clear difference between witnessing and reporting a crime. But the situation above clearly shows there is no difference. If I witnessed a crime against me and retaliated, the aggressor shouldn't be able to report the retaliation as a crime. I don't even know why I have to make a whole big thread about it; it's common sense! I know I'm not the first new player that has found this strange and I will not be the last.

 

[Goilveig]

It's working exactly like the design document states.

Right to Retaliate

• When a commander is the victim of a major crime within a jurisdiction they automatically receive the right to retaliate:
  • Their ship automatically scans the perpetrator, giving them knowledge of the outstanding bounties in the current jurisdiction
  • They count as a witness and automatically transmit the crime to the factional authority controlling the jurisdiction
  • They are allowed to attack the perpetrator with impunity in any jurisdiction controlled by the same factional authority as where the crime was witnessed and reported
• The right to retaliate does not grant immunity from prosecution in jurisdictions controlled by different factional authorities
• Note: If the commander is attacked in a jurisdiction that does not recognize the crime, the commander does not gain the right to retaliate!
• In unregulated space no crime is ever committed and any form of retaliation is acceptable

The doc clearly states that you only gain the right to retaliate if you (or someone else) witness AND report the crime. If you witness but don't report the crime, you don't get the benefits from witnessing and reporting.

I think it deserves to change, but you can't say it's not working as the design documents state it does.

 

[Sundiver]

The crime is automatically transmitted so it is reported.

 

[fergal]

There was 2 options for this in the past, turn off reporting witnessed crimes and turn off crimes committed on me.
At some patch this was changed to only one option.

I think this makes it a little bit simpler, it's not like these options are very well documented.

If you want someone to get wanted for attacking you you need to have it on.

The reason I have it off is so the local authority vehicles dont turn up when I'm going for a big bounty. With the changes to last hitting I don't know if turning it off is really needed anymore.

 

[Helo]

It's working exactly like the design document states.



The doc clearly states that you only gain the right to retaliate if you (or someone else) witness AND report the crime. If you witness but don't report the crime, you don't get the benefits from witnessing and reporting.

I think it deserves to change, but you can't say it's not working as the design documents state it does.

First off, you're exactly right and it's working as intended. But, I don't think it needs to change. If your system doesn't report your attacker as a criminal, but theirs does, then it appears to "the authorities computers" that you attacked first, since there is no record of him attacking you.

It's just a risk of turning that feature off. It's literally the only reason to turn it off, unless you don't want help on an assassination that's taking too long.

 

[TheEponymousBob]

You're looking at this like crimes are adjudicated by some omniscient GM. They're not. They're adjudicated by System Authority, based on the best information they have at the time. If they receive evidence of someone (#1) attacking a ship (#2), and if at the time they deem #2 to be clean, then a crime has been committed, and #1 becomes wanted.

If no crime has been reported, then to the best knowledge of the SA, no crime has been committed. So if #2 has deliberately set their ship not to report crimes, SA will not be aware that #2 has been attacked. If #2 then decides to retaliate, SA have no way of knowing that it is a retaliation, because the original attack was never reported.

So in that scenario, how would you expect SA to realise #2 was retaliating, and not the aggressor?

Beware "common sense"; it's just another way of saying "not fully thought through".

 

[dot]

Wouldn't it make more sense, if you have report crimes off, that the attacker turns "hostile" at which point you can attack him with no repercussions, wanted or not? My main gripe here is that you clearly don't have any "Right to Retaliate" unless you have report crimes on. Does not the attacker have evidence of his attack as well as the retaliation and wouldn't that make his report of your "crime" invalid?

 

[dot]

There was 2 options for this in the past, turn off reporting witnessed crimes and turn off crimes committed on me.
At some patch this was changed to only one option.

I think this makes it a little bit simpler, it's not like these options are very well documented.

If you want someone to get wanted for attacking you you need to have it on.

The reason I have it off is so the local authority vehicles dont turn up when I'm going for a big bounty. With the changes to last hitting I don't know if turning it off is really needed anymore.

Maybe the whole problem is actually the report crimes option. Maybe there should be an option for Request Federal Assistance? That way we can bounty hunt in peace and not be hit with fines from defending ourselves.

 

[TheEponymousBob]

Wouldn't it make more sense, if you have report crimes off, that the attacker turns "hostile" at which point you can attack him with no repercussions, wanted or not? My main gripe here is that you clearly don't have any "Right to Retaliate" unless you have report crimes on. Does not the attacker have evidence of his attack as well as the retaliation and wouldn't that make his report of your "crime" invalid?

Why would the attacker want to provide evidence of their own crime?

Maybe the whole problem is actually the report crimes option. Maybe there should be an option for Request Federal Assistance? That way we can bounty hunt in peace and not be hit with fines from defending ourselves.

That way you can have your cake and eat it. SA will respond to a crime, because that is their job. The only way to stop them doing so is to choose to not let them know that the original attack took place. You can't have it both ways.

Edit: Actually you can. If a clean ship attacks you, switch on report crimes and wait a second. Next time they hit you you're golden. Of course now you'll want to kill 'em before the feds arrive...