Detailed ship tier suggestion

This started as a response to Hadar in another thread, but it's go so big and it's such a core issue that I've put it in it's own thread.

16,295 backers. I'd be surprised if those that have pledged £50 or more weren't already pretty tapped out - there's been a lot of Jontying going on. Although some will likely make a post Christmas push for the £90 level. Those below £20 didn't want the low-cost download option, so they're unlikely to be a source.

That leaves ~12,400 existing pledgers who you want to increase their pledges. As these pledge levels are also the most attractive to people who've yet to pledge, anything you do to make them more attractive to existing pledgers will likely entice others in as well.

The simplest solution is ships. £20 gets you the Eagle Mk1. I took a quick look at Jades' site to remind myself of the ships. I'm no expert, so this might not be the right order (it's basically done by internal space, which I've included); for example, the Sidewinder has no missiles and worse performance than the Saker:
http://www.jades.org/shiprevs.htm

£20.00 Eagle Mk1 20t
£22.50 Eagle Mk2 22t
£25.00 Eagle Mk3 22t
£27.50 Saker Mk3 23t (Perhaps remove this tier and have the Saker @ £30?. See note.)
£30.00 Sidewinder 25t (Perhaps ditch the Sidewinder in favour of the Saker. See note.)
£35.00 Krait 27t
£40.00 Gecko 34t

That sort of incentive scheme gets people thinking about coughing up a mere £2.50 for a better ship and, if they're doing that, they might well upgrade to the Eagle Mk3 for a mere £7.50, and if they're doing that . . .

Obviously, the existing £30 get automatically upgraded.

£50.00 Adder 40t
£60.00
£75.00
£90.00 Cobra Mk1 60t (£90 is a sexy tier; a Cobra will make it even more so)
£100.00
£150.00 Cobra Mk3 80t
£200.00
£300.00 Asp 120t
£500.00
£750.00 Python 400t (&/or Imperial Courier 350t for the Imps out there)
£1500.00 Anaconda 650t (&/or Imperial Trader 525t)

I left the Viper out as a police ship (not sure if they'd want to reserve it for law enforcement only, but they might). That comes to 14 ships (assuming it's "or" for the Imps rather than "&"), so if we're sticking to 15 ships on lauch there's room for another low-tier ship or something like a 90t Constrictor for the £200 tier.

If you're doing this, you probably don't want founder members of the Elite (£150+) to get store discounts, as they're already getting decent cargo holds.

Now the key point. This needs to be rolled out in the next 2 days in order to give it a solid 2 weeks.

Anyway, what do you think. If you're currently in the £20 category, might you stump up the £5 to get the much improved Eagle Mk3? What about £15 for a Krait? And, if you're one of the waverers at <£90, would the Cobra (albeit a Mk1) sell it for you? Would a Cobra Mk3 push any of the 455 in £100 up to £150?

NOTE. The Sidewinder appears to be a much worse combat ship than the Saker. The advantage is the SW has 25t vs 23t, but that relatively small increase for a poorer fighter might not attract people. So ditch the SW and the £27.50 tier.

That still leaves £20, £22.50 & £25 as the upgrades for the various Eagles. £30 for the SW and £35 for the Krait (4t & 2 missiles more). All tangible in-game benefits.
 
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Hi :)

I think what you've set out here is a very good example of how to make the pledge system more interesting, well done! :cool:
I won't harp on about the existing Kickstarter, we already know it's faults, but this kind of layout would have been great at the start of the campaign.
You've given a link to the 'old' Frontier ships which is a good idea as well, to show the different designs and specs, especially to those 'would be' contributors who haven't any knowledge of the Elite series.

I can well imagine the outcome if a layout like this were to be current and with the NEW designs of the previous ships shown, especially in a 3D walkround/visual graphical sense, backed up with a short list of specifications and a description of what each individual ship might be used for. In other words a 'brochure'.
I found this kind of idea interesting on the CRSI site, in any event...this would work well for Elite Dangerous, probably not possible now at this moment in time, unfortunately.

Jack.
 
Now that's an incentive. Just throw in lifetime insurance for the ship and I'm in. We know this model works. I don't see why you can't do this straight away. They could easily be done as addons. No reason to limit it to one ship each either.

We'll done. I hope someone is listening.
 
You could do it as add-ons, but ideally you want it more visible in the pledge tier area. I know you can't change existing tiers, but hopefully you can add new tiers. Combined with Star Citizen arrows ("Note about £30 level" etc.), that should encourage people to advance up the tiers rather than pay a flat rate for a Cobra Mk1 etc.

As there will be more of the arrows than in SC, care will have to be taken to keep them brief. Something like:

Now includes ship upgrade: Gecko----------------->​

. . . with the link to a basic page (also accessible from Ships section behind the ED page). Include the sort of data in the Jades links including a picture/rotating 3d model, preferable consistent (although given time constraints, consistency is not essential). Also a brief sales pitch for the ship (only positives, don't cut and paste from the FFE manual). It doesn't matter if it all changes later; that's life. At this stage it's about encouraging minmaxers to increase their pledges.

For the record, I'm a £20 pledger. Not sure that the free updates, by itself, will move me to stump up an extra £70. If I faced the structure above, I'd certainly upgrade to at least the Krait. On balance, I probably choose the 40t Adder for £50. Having done that, I'd likely then cough up the extra £40 to upgrade to £90 free for life (and get a Cobra whilst I'm doing that). This is just me, but it's a clear example of nibbling (like on eBay, where you often see people nibble away until someone ends up paying more than they would for new from Amazon).

(Note - there should already be one of these arrows for the £90 pledge tier. Do you want people's money? Then make it easy for them to know about the updates for life!

Whilst I'm spamming formatting ideas, the ED webpage has the right idea regarding the Dev Diary vids; 3,2,1 not 1,2,3, as 3 has a multi ship battle with lots of flashes. That's the one you want people to open first.)

@Cap Black. I'm not sure about making the insurance policy free, as the insurance policy is a powerful dynamic for affecting player behaviour to encourage the sort of game environment that they want to create. Plus they've not mentioned it, so they might not know exactly what they intend to do yet.

You're right about not limiting it. In the FAQ note & announcement on ship purchases, it should state that you're allowed to choose any of the previous tiers' ships. Not everyone who spends £1,500 will want an Anaconda from day 1. You can give players a decal if they opt for a lesser ship.
 
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Sounds like a Good Idea. I'm on for a Cobby 1, if they do that ;) I cant afford the extra to make it a mk3.

However, there are other incentives anyway, Things like the official Dark Wheel novel, reserved names etc.

But I suppose these are in-game incentives, that won't cost FD any extra cash to implement.
 
I like it... But, we have to keep this in mind:

"Starting with a few credits and a basic starship, carve your own path through the richest, largest gaming sandbox ever created, set against a backdrop of raw anarchy, galactic powerplays and intrigue. Do whatever it takes to upgrade your ship’s hull, engines, weapons, defences, cargo hold; constantly improve your capabilities and influence on your journey towards the most coveted rank in the history of gaming - ‘Elite’."

So, I don't see how we could have all those different ships as starting options. Also, if someone starts with an Anaconda for example, then they're gonna need possibly more than 100cr in hydrogen alone, just to make their first jump...

However, that doesn't mean it couldn't be done. Perhaps they could offer a new and unseen founder ship(s) as a starter ships, which would still come with the same basic equipment, but maybe slighter better stats, in order to not break the game balance. OR, offer only the ships you mention in the top half of your list, as they are all essentially starter class ships:

£20.00 Eagle Mk1 20t
£22.50 Eagle Mk2 22t
£25.00 Eagle Mk3 22t
£27.50 Saker Mk3 23t
£30.00 Sidewinder 25t
£35.00 Krait 27t
£40.00 Gecko 34t

(Although this begs the question, what would be the starter ship if you didn't select one of these?)

Also, I think they should definitely, definitely offer lots of cosmetic items as upgrades - founder ship skins, engine exhaust colours/different trails, decals and so on.
 
The simplest solution is ships.
This is Elite, not SC.

Why offer someone the chance to begin with a ship potentially worth millions ? That in itself is massively unbalancing - I could simply sell the ship and using the proceeds (even after any in-game loss on price) fully kit out a smaller craft with top of the line hardware, and if I was into PvP that would give me a huge advantage.

The simplest solution would be to give people different start locations / vanity items for their ship. Giving people a different starting ship changes the whole point of Elite. (Take 100 credits, your crappy ship, and work your way up)

If you're doing this, you probably don't want founder members of the Elite (£150+) to get store discounts, as they're already getting decent cargo holds.

Anyway, what do you think.
The result of becoming Elite was that the citizens of the universe treated you with some respect and as a direct consequence you were offered a better service than your average joe - a Founder would also be treated with the same kind of respect although not hold the rank of Elite. That's the whole point of being a Founder ... take that away and I might as well pull my pledge.

Also, I think they should definitely, definitely offer lots of cosmetic items as upgrades - founder ship skins, engine exhaust colours/different trails, decals and so on.

Shadowman has the right idea - offer unique, never to be offered again vanity items. (There will be different ones of course later on in the shops)
 
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(Although this begs the question, what would be the starter ship if you didn't select one of these?)

That's easy, if you don't pledge on Kickstarter you get this:


The Lifter


Hull Mass: 3t
Mass (Fully Laden): 10t
Internal Capacity (No Drive): 7t
Retro Thruster Acceleration: 2 Earth G
Main Thruster Acceleration: 4 Earth G
Crew: 1
Gun Mountings: 0
Fuel Scoop: NO
Missile Pylons: 0
Hyperspace Ranges: No hyperdrive capability
Standard Drive: Interplanetary drive
Internal Capacity (With Interplanetary Drive): 3t
Typical Cost: 16,000
Designer: Saud-Kruger Astro Design
Manufacturer: Saud-Kruger Astro Works
Inservice Date: Unknown (pre-2500??)
Allegiance: Federation

No one really knows why these are available for sale. No weapons or hyperdrive capability (unless you're prepared to wait a year for the drive to fail, then replace it with a Class 1 Military Drive), and very little acceleration, these are by far the cheapest ships around. However, there is absolutely no reason why you should buy one.

Rating: *


http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...80&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&gbv=2&tbm=isch&um=1&itbs=1

Not that you'll get very far!:D
 
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I think giving people ships to start with (combined with another small but worthwhile reward similar to the life-time insurance - that gives the feeling of buying something unique) would be the best thing for Frontier to do next to raise money.

But I wouldn't make it too complicated, a few highly differentiated ships make the decision easier. And people buy what they see, so I recommend selling those ships where concept art is already available (Viper, Anaconda and maybe the Cobra).

Capitalism is a system that rewards those companies with money who give people what they want. And the SC campaign showed clearly that buying ships to start with is what a lot of people want. And while I like to start out with a small ship myself, I'm only interested in doing so if Elite: Dangerous will be a good game and that depends on the available funds.
 
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Liqua has a point. The aim of the game is you start out with the basic and work your way up.

However its not fair some people starting out in feudal and anarchistic systems on the same specs as someone starting out in highly policed areas. So either all systems will run similar risks, Or as with FE, you start at Sol you get an Eagle, Start at Lave you get a Cobby3.

Although that's probably too much advantage, it could just be that in safer systems you get the starter ship, and in more dangerous you get say a shield, then maybe a missile too as the region gets more dangerous.

By region, you could start in anarchic system, but next jump is totally safe, so you'd get a basic ship, so the odds would be on possible jump locations from start rather than your actual start.

Either that or only a number of areas are marked at "birth" systems.
 
I hacked one of the Lifters in FE2 to these stats :D

Hull Mass: 3t
Mass (Fully Laden): 600t
Internal Capacity (No Drive): 597t
Retro Thruster Acceleration: 12 Earth G
Main Thruster Acceleration: 60 Earth G
Crew: 1
Gun Mountings: 2
Fuel Scoop: YES
Missile Pylons: 6
Hyperspace Ranges: Unlimited
Standard Drive: Thargoid Witchspace drive, Human equivalent Class 8
Internal Capacity (Thargoid Witchspace drive): 300t

A wee beast of a ship that was!

Also, here is the stats for the mythical hidden ship in FE2 as detailed in Tony Dillon's Secrets Of Frontier Elite book

Mirage
Hull Mass 265t
Mass (Fully Laden) 5700t
Internal Capacity (No Drive) 5435t
Retro Thruster Acceleration: 28 Earth G
Main Thruster Acceleration: 34 Earth G
Crew: 5
Gun Mountings: 10 + Front :eek:
Fuel Scoop: Unknown
Missile Pylons: 22 :eek:
Hyperspace Ranges: Unknown
Standard Drive: Thargoid Witchspace drive, Human equivalent Class 8

The time I spent looking for this ship......................:rolleyes:
 
I hacked one of the Lifters in FE2 to these stats :D

Hull Mass: 3t
Mass (Fully Laden): 600t
Internal Capacity (No Drive): 597t
Retro Thruster Acceleration: 12 Earth G
Main Thruster Acceleration: 60 Earth G
Crew: 1
Gun Mountings: 2
Fuel Scoop: YES
Missile Pylons: 6
Hyperspace Ranges: Unlimited
Standard Drive: Thargoid Witchspace drive, Human equivalent Class 8
Internal Capacity (Thargoid Witchspace drive): 300t

A wee beast of a ship that was!

That's why you're a moderator and I'm a humble drone:D
 
I hacked one of the Lifters in FE2 to these stats :D

Hull Mass: 3t
Mass (Fully Laden): 600t
Internal Capacity (No Drive): 597t
Retro Thruster Acceleration: 12 Earth G
Main Thruster Acceleration: 60 Earth G
Crew: 1
Gun Mountings: 2
Fuel Scoop: YES
Missile Pylons: 6
Hyperspace Ranges: Unlimited
Standard Drive: Thargoid Witchspace drive, Human equivalent Class 8
Internal Capacity (Thargoid Witchspace drive): 300t

A wee beast of a ship that was!

Also, here is the stats for the mythical hidden ship in FE2 as detailed in Tony Dillon's Secrets Of Frontier Elite book

Mirage
Hull Mass 265t
Mass (Fully Laden) 5700t
Internal Capacity (No Drive) 5435t
Retro Thruster Acceleration: 28 Earth G
Main Thruster Acceleration: 34 Earth G
Crew: 5
Gun Mountings: 10 + Front :eek:
Fuel Scoop: Unknown
Missile Pylons: 22 :eek:
Hyperspace Ranges: Unknown
Standard Drive: Thargoid Witchspace drive, Human equivalent Class 8

The time I spent looking for this ship......................:rolleyes:

I had one for a laugh, that I used in FFE russian mod to explore the galaxy, quite literally....

Ship - Escape Pod
Class 8 Hyperdrive Range 4860ly
1203 Shields
Front Thargoid Laser
Rear 100MW Beam
Top/Bottom turrets had Plasma
Cargo space 6552710003Tonnes
Cabins 200
Every option available including hull auto repair
16.9g forward and reverse thrusters
2 MV2 missiles
4 Thargoid missiles
2 Mycoid missiles
2 Nuclear missiles
and 65520 tonnes of Hydrogen fuel.

Thought I'd just randomly jump around the galaxy towards the middle and see what planets were there and how dense they were.

Was a good trip, but only spent a couple of hours doing it.
 
Why offer someone the chance to begin with a ship potentially worth millions?

Quite simply, to-get-the-game-funded.

It's a model SC has proven to work.

Let's say the game get's 1 million players when it's finished, at the moment there are just under 17,000 backers. There wouldn't be that many people at the start with better ships.

Offering better ships is a way for Frontier to get more funding without actually costing themselves anything.

It's not a hard concept to grasp, worrying if it'll ruin gameplay is something for the pledger to decide - that's why I'd offer the ships as upgrades to your current pledge, so Liqua, you wouldn't have to buy one and can enjoy the game as you like.

If you argue that it'll ruin multiplayer, then there is also an arguement that people with more time on their hands would ruin multiplayer too as they'll be able to get a bigger ship quicker. You know, this is all about getting the game funded at the moment, which is why, in my opinion, selling ships is a good idea.
 
Granted its a nice idea but I think out of spirit with the game. I understand that people may be able to purchase in-game credits with rl money and therefore whatever ship they desire but I still think we should all start with 100cr and a basic ship.

For a start getting a cobra mk3 as your first ship would be great - but you probably wont be able to afford to replace it/pay for repairs on 100cr.

Far better to increase external advertising and get in more backers IMO
 
The whole discussion about starting ships and fairness is quite hypothetical. A few days after the release a few kids with "unlimited" playtime are going to be far ahead anyway - as with every online-multiplayer game. I think getting as much funds for the development of Elite is much more important than trying to force more equality onto players during the first few hours after launch.

Furthermore, balance is not only affected by money, but also by game time. A working father will never be able to compete with a school kid, because lack of time. But with the money he earns, he can "buy" play-time (starting ships / in-game credits). This money helps Frontier to improve Elite and thus benefits all other players, too. I think that's a great deal for everyone.
 
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@Shadowman
OR, offer only the ships you mention in the top half of your list, as they are all essentially starter class ships

That was my thinking when I first looked at it. I was focusing on getting people out of the £20 category and realistically, if possible, most of those will not pledge more than £40. Hence the split you point to. Made Up Numbers Alert - say 3,000 at an average of £10 = £30k.

But there are over 3,000 people who've pledged £40-£50 (and another 300 up to £75) and I figured the magic of the Cobra name combined with the free updates might push some of them up. MUNA - say 1,000 at an average of £20 = £20k.

Again, that seemed a sensible place to stop, but then I remembered how chuffed Cassius & TJ were when they (erroneously) thought that they'd be getting Anacondas for £90+. Hence the Cobra Mk3 & Asp, which might pull in another £5k and the two silly large traders, which likely wouldn't make any difference but which might pull in another couple of thousand.

So perhaps another £55k from existing pledgers; that's over 10% of what's needed. Or perhaps not. Maybe people don't care what ship they have?

Although this begs the question, what would be the starter ship if you didn't select one of these?

The craft on the nearest tier below you. So £45 would get a Gecko (£40) and £75 an Adder (£50).

@Liqua.
Why offer someone the chance to begin with a ship potentially worth millions ?
Couple of points there. Failure at the extreme doesn't invalidate it at the minimum. You may have a point about the Anaconda, but how does that affect the Saker? The Adder?

There are ways around it. We don't really know how MP is going to work. If it's not a MMO, it would be possible to have starting ship limits on some servers. Anyway, if there are NPC Anacondas in the game and, if a year after the game is released some players will have Anacondas whilst some will have Eagle Mk1s, then where's the problem with allowing that situation to exist from the start? It doesn't ruin my game if you trade in your Anaconda for a fully fitted Asp unless you use that Asp for griefing, in which case the game should sanction you.

The simplest solution would be to give people different start locations / vanity items for their ship.

No. Won't work.

You have to remember that you are passionate about Elite, but a large number of the people currently at £20 are less so. That's even more the case for the untapped thousands out there who aren't even at £20 yet. You note that ED isn't SC. Right! SC has 34k KS backers (67.5k in total), ED has 16.5k.

Perhaps if it had been organised from day 1, then vanity items might have worked and everyone could have been shoe-horned into their tiny Eagle Mk1. But we've got 2 weeks to go and even with the recent influx after Dev Diary 3 and Chris Robert's help, the odds are against this KS succeeding.

Vanity items are probably a post-KS thing to help reach stretch goals.

That's the whole point of being a Founder ... take that away and I might as well pull my pledge.

Fair enough. If even one person who's pledged at your level feels this way, it's best kept as it is. Not really an issue if you limit the ship upgrades to Cobra Mk3, which has a certain symmetry anyway.

@Vijar.
And people buy what they see, so I recommend selling those ships where concept art is already available (Viper, Anaconda and maybe the Cobra).

Fair point. I always think the phenomenon of people nibbling their bids up in eBay is insane, but it's there. Being able to buy a better ship for $4 at the minimum might produce a similar effect, but I can see it might also lead to information overload.

The SC ship breaks were (roughly) £20, £35 & £65.
 
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This is an interesting topic, and maybe an important one for the KS (if we take SC as an example).

Still exactly because i like the whole premiss of 'Start with 100 credits and a poor ship' of Elite, i could only go for a low tier bid in SC because i want to start from the bottom and work my way up.

So yeah it is a tricky thing to adjust a KS for. One thing SC showed was that there seems to be quite a bunch of people prepared to pump in lots of cash for the ability to not start at the bottom, and all things considered maybe this is something to emulate for Elite: Dangerous and the KS effort?

Maybe it can be incorporated into a game without creating some of the issues people talk about?

One aspect i think it is good for, in game terms, is it provides a wide variety of starting ships for the game world in the MP version. It would feel a little artificial to just find every other human player in all the same ships.

Now how to incorporate that positive aspect to the wider game design balance and ideals? If you have a strong anti pvp incentive (so the opposite of EVE?) in the game that could help stabilize things pvp related for a while?

What about having a special unique recognition for those players that started in the lowliest of ships from the get go, a badge of honour or some such, something that only they will ever have and something that stays with them forever? So they don't feel that players simply putting in the biggest bucks get all the glory based on that alone?

I of course will start in the most rubbish ship i can, whatever that might be, but if handled correctly i don't see players paying to start in ship X need be that big a problem, from either the cash flow aspect or the game design aspect if the right methodology is assigned to that system.

You really don't want Elite to 'cheapen' itself and become just another online game where 'money spent = win game quicker'. That goes against pretty much what Elite was always about from the very start. However better starting player-ship variety and the money that could help bring in is something worth looking into.
 
Let's stop with the pessimism shall we? I remember when we were all going "Ooh look, almost at 500k" and now we have less than 500k to get funded.

Alright, it's a lot of money, but its less than we've already managed to find between everyone - and every day, more people learn about Elite: Dangerous.

It's not over till its over.
 
Let's stop with the pessimism shall we? I remember when we were all going "Ooh look, almost at 500k" and now we have less than 500k to get funded.

Alright, it's a lot of money, but its less than we've already managed to find between everyone - and every day, more people learn about Elite: Dangerous.

It's not over till its over.

Well said Kipper! A year ago after The Outsider folded I was very pessimistic about E4 (I refuse to call it E.D.: google it to find why!) would ever be made, and absolutely delighted to be proved wrong then. I'm hoping DB has some tricks up his sleeve, and the last few days bring a rush so.....nervously optimistic:smilie:
 
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