Discussion: Using NPC Crews as a Foundation for Multi-Crew

[sandkid]

I'd like to create an opportunity for the community to weigh in on multi-crew (and its less than stellar performance) but also consider what I think is necessary for getting multi-crew to its full potential: NPC crew members for all roles. I know NPC crew can be a rather passionate topic - Elite SLF pilots are impressive to say the least - but I also want to lay out a case for why Elite Dangerous needs more NPC crew functionality before it does any further work on multi-crew.

Why NPCs First?

The short answer is three points:

• Everyone can benefit from NPC crew, which means a much larger population can test and stress the game design of them and their roles
• Where wings are obviously a multiplayer feature (multiple ships), multi-crew is a multiplayer feature built for a traditionally NPC feature (one ship, one player)
• NPC features like a 'crew' are fleshed out based on utility and balance, both of which help flesh out how a multiplayer feature of similar design would work

The SLF role is spot on and, aside from bugs and glitches, is a fairly obvious role for a multiplayer feature based from the same ship. It's important to remember that the biggest question multi-crew has to answer is "why fly on your ship when I have my own?". The SLF answers this easily: because launching a fighter and 'defending' a mothership is an experience flying your 'own ship' doesn't give. When an SLF is destroyed, the pilot has several 'lives' to continue enjoying the feature. Destruction as an attendant eagle mk II or vulture, not so much. So we can see the SLF role is really quite well designed and an obvious benefit to both NPC and Multiplayer crew.

The Gunner role is...lacking. This is partially due to the fact most ships in the game capable of a gunner lack the hardpoints or outright slots to make much use of the role. As such, the role is essentially abandoned at this time. NPC development of the role, though, could see it find utility - or be totally scrapped when none is found. This is the best example of why features like multi-crew should really be built as NPC features first before deploying to multiplayer. The problem of the gunner role is less about its bugginess and more about its utility. The role simply isn't useful. Aside from an extra pip to work with, even a NPC gunner seems less than needed. That could change, if viewed from an NPC perspective first where boredom and player satisfaction isn't an issue.

Many more roles could potentially exist for NPCs, but unlike past games where NPC crew features are simple and 'boring' we know that Elite is seeking roles that are dynamic and enjoyable...because we want these roles to be for multi-crew, a multiplayer feature. The foundation for a dynamic and exciting role starts with its utility and balance. These elements are best tested and formed in the controlled environment of a NPC crew, available to all, then transitioned over to multiplayer usage. A role that is good for a NPC may be redundant and useful, but not multi-crew worthy. By first identifying the utility of the role, we can then begin to brainstorm how that utility can be expanded into a more exciting role suitable for a player, rather than try and work backwards.

Developing crew roles for mining, exploration, trade and passengers is best approached from a utility - NPC - standpoint first, rather than try and figure out 'how do we make this exciting?'. Excitement is pointless if the role has no utility. Even if the turrets worked well for the gunner role (and sometimes they do), most ships are more gimped with a gunner than when the pilot has total control! This speaks to the fundamental process for developing a crew feature, NPC or multiplayer, that must first address utility, then balance, and then excitement/satisfaction for a human controller.

So what exactly are you suggesting?

I think the community should shift its discussions and suggestions around multi-crew from focusing on what is multi-crew - a buggy multiplayer feature that is 50% useful - to what could be multi-crew from an NPC experience. This would require the following (none of which is easy to develop):

• The creation of NPC crew for the Gunner Role (allowing it to be tested, balanced, and possibly removed or split into other roles)
• The creation of NPC crew for other roles with other features of Elite in mind beyond combat
• Developer led discussion of what the community wants to see in crew utility and interaction (Payment, Satisfaction, Missions, Commands, Termination/Loss, Ranking/Upgrading/Specializing) from an NPC perspective. These discussions help fill out the wider question of "Why would a player want to take this role/allow a player to take this role over an NPC".
• Community led discussion on multiplayer interactions within the ship (multi-crew) as opposed to outside the ship (wings/PvP/PvE). As it stands, not a lot of thought has been put into that all important question from earlier: Why would I fly on your ship instead of mine? What does multi-crew offer me (Credits/Rank/Experience/Utility/Bonding) that my own ship does not in a wing? And Vice Versa, what does my own ship offer me that multi-crew doesn't. How do these two sets of answers compare to one another?

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS...

1) Why do you or do you not use multi-crew? Be specific. What keeps you in (or out) of that co-pilot seat?

2) What do you think multi-crew offers that winging up does not? Keep your answer in the context of the current build, not what it 'could be' in the future. (That question is later)

3) What do you think winging up offers that multi-crew does not? Keep your answer "..."

4) Do you think developing NPC crew for multiple roles (including the existing two roles) could help develop multi-crew?

5) A crucial component to crew is that it has utility and balance. While balancing players against NPC is difficult, do you think a 'crew' feature (multi-crew or NPC crew) is unfair to ships not capable of a crew (such as the Type-7, Dolphin, or Vulture)? Put another way, do you think Elite benefits from the addition of 'crews' for non-capital ships?

6) Following on #5, should a multi-crewed or NPC crewed ship have an advantage over a non-crew ship? EX: An Alliance Crusader (crewed fully with SLF) faces off against an Alliance Chieftain (no crew). Both are well built and engineered. Should the crew provide a strong advantage for the Crusader?

7) Multiplayer features thrive on choices and actions. Some features of Elite, like combat, lend themselves to this better than others, like exploration. Do you think all features of Elite should somehow benefit or include multi-crew? Or do you think multi-crew should only be part of some features?

8) Leading off #7, a hallmark of Elite is that nearly all ships can be built for nearly all features with decent success. Exploring in a FDS isn't ideal, but doable, and fighting in a Type-6 is brave but not wise. Most medium and nearly all large ships are multi-crew capable, too. Should crew roles be less structured and customizable, like the ships, or should the crew roles be fixed in ships based on their 'expected' use (much like military slots are more prevalent on combat-oriented ships).

9) Currently, the SLF role can be filled by NPC crew for a cost of credits based on a commission. Do you use this crew member? Why or why not?

10) Following off #9, if other NPC crew were developed and cost similarly to the existing SLF pilot (potentially seeing a commission cut of your earnings nearing 30%), would you use them? Why or why not?


You can answer them all, some, or none! Just food for thought. I'm curious to what the community thinks of NPC crew as a means to not only create a feature for all commanders, but also as a path towards a better and more intelligent multiplayer experience in multi-crew! Thanks for your input!

If you think NPC Crew (or Crew in general) are an awful idea, say so but also please explain why?
And particularly, if you support multi-crew but not NPC crew, explain why you support one but not the other.

 

[Maro-Val]

The effort you have put to think and type the op, was probably a lot bigger from the effort put on creating multicrew.
Dont mean to derail your thread.. as you were.

 

[shreddog]

Time for FDev to face it. Player crew only, was a terrible idea.
It sounds awesome on paper, but in reality nobody wants to sit on somebody else's ship for long.

NPC crew on the other hand would actually be used and would be a great addition both for gameplay and immersion.
They have the assets ready, just make em hireable NPC crew.

I still remember playing the first Battlefield game. Vehicles could be manned by two or more people, but everyone used their own vehicle. Only if there were no vehicles available did anyone jump into a teammates vehicle, and that was only to quickly get to a new location were they would bail out.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

NPC Gunner = Turret

Think about it for a minute. What does a turret do? It tracks and fires automatically, at either your designated target, or at whatever comes in range.
How would this be any different "manned" by an NPC?

The AI isn't any smarter than the AI.

You don't pay a turret.

Turrets don't talk.

So what's the benefit?

Fighters, sure, I get it. And I could potentially see other NPC roles - Science Officer for Auto-Honk, Ship's Engineer to speed up repairs to systems/AFMU augment, and so on, but this would require a lot of working and reworking to really make viable. Not that it wouldn't be good, it has the potential to be great, but I suspect it's not on the Frontier road map at this time.

 

[RamirezKurita]

NPC Gunner = Turret

Think about it for a minute. What does a turret do? It tracks and fires automatically, at either your designated target, or at whatever comes in range.
How would this be any different "manned" by an NPC?

The AI isn't any smarter than the AI.

You don't pay a turret.

Turrets don't talk.

So what's the benefit?

Based on the current multicrew implementation:

Manned turrets ignore chaff, automated scatter widely when the target chaffs.

Manned turrets are far more accurate due to high amounts of aim assist and not suffering from the usual tracking difficulties that automated turrets have. I'd assume the same would be true for NPC crewed turrets (possibly depending on crew rank).

Manned turrets can be used alongside regen sequence and concordant sequence to support allies, npc crewed turrets could also be upgraded to understand these secondary effects to support wingmates in combat rather than simply targeting enemies only.

A gunner position allows for 360 degree scanning and missile locks, NPC manned turrets would allow the same.

Experimental turrets from the tech broker require a gunner to use, which an NPC gunner would allow.

Basically, if all the improvements and advantages from having a human gunner were also applied to NPC gunners, a lot of players would get some use out of them.

Oh, and don't forget that delicious free pip for the power distributor that comes from having a crew member...

 

[shreddog]

So what's the benefit?

-They could replace the docking computer and supercruise assist. Freeing up 2 slots.
-Fly the ship to a destination you set on galaxy map.
-Scan a system for you, reporting any interesting finds(setup by your parameters).
-Give extra pip
-And most importantly, fill the empty seat(s) on the bridge

 

[RamirezKurita]

1) Why do you or do you not use multi-crew? Be specific. What keeps you in (or out) of that co-pilot seat?
I don't use it because it is a multiplayer feature. I play games to play the game, not to deal with real people, plus it's a rare thing that one of my few friends that play Elite is online at the same time that I am.

2) What do you think multi-crew offers that winging up does not? Keep your answer in the context of the current build, not what it 'could be' in the future. (That question is later)
Multicrew offers two things. Firstly, convenience. You can be literally anywhere in the galaxy and still join your friends for multicrew on zero notice. Secondly, it's easy to get into and is accessible compared to winging up as you don't even need your own ship or modules, you just join in with someone else's ship.

3) What do you think winging up offers that multi-crew does not? Keep your answer "..."
Plenty, it offers a cooperative version of the actual game rather than just a few ring-fenced mechanics to play with.

4) Do you think developing NPC crew for multiple roles (including the existing two roles) could help develop multi-crew?
Yes, I believe that NPC crew and multicrew should never have been introduced as separate mechanics. After making NPC crew for 1.3 or whenever it was, they should have then integrated multiplayer functionality into it rather then developing multicrew as a completely parallel mechanic.

5) A crucial component to crew is that it has utility and balance. While balancing players against NPC is difficult, do you think a 'crew' feature (multi-crew or NPC crew) is unfair to ships not capable of a crew (such as the Type-7, Dolphin, or Vulture)? Put another way, do you think Elite benefits from the addition of 'crews' for non-capital ships?
As long as crew isn't simply a stat-stick but instead provides additional functionality (such as SLF operation), then I don't see a problem. It would add breadth and flexibility to the big ships rather than simply buffing their numbers. Plus, it's worth remembering that pretty much all mediums and several of the small ships (including the Vulture, which can make basically zero use out of current crew mechanics) can use a 2nd crew member.

6) Following on #5, should a multi-crewed or NPC crewed ship have an advantage over a non-crew ship? EX: An Alliance Crusader (crewed fully with SLF) faces off against an Alliance Chieftain (no crew). Both are well built and engineered. Should the crew provide a strong advantage for the Crusader?
As long as the pilot actually uses the strengths of the crew properly, then yes. Crew would be another avenue of maintenance and investment for a ship, and so should yield potentially higher performance. Nobody would argue that an unengineered ship should be equal to a similar but well engineered one, or an E-rated ship should be equal to a A-rated one, and crew shouldn't be any different.

7) Multiplayer features thrive on choices and actions. Some features of Elite, like combat, lend themselves to this better than others, like exploration. Do you think all features of Elite should somehow benefit or include multi-crew? Or do you think multi-crew should only be part of some features?
A well developed crew system, coupled with extra things to do on board ships and extra variety with SLFs or SRVs, should basically cover almost every aspect of the game. There would be little reason to artificially restrict crew from supporting certain activities, if a system it made it should be used to its fullest.

8) Leading off #7, a hallmark of Elite is that nearly all ships can be built for nearly all features with decent success. Exploring in a FDS isn't ideal, but doable, and fighting in a Type-6 is brave but not wise. Most medium and nearly all large ships are multi-crew capable, too. Should crew roles be less structured and customizable, like the ships, or should the crew roles be fixed in ships based on their 'expected' use (much like military slots are more prevalent on combat-oriented ships).
I'd say that crew should have the same three ranks we do. Combat rank is self explanatory, but exploration skills would help with system management (as exploration in Elite is more about scanning things and maintaining your ship) while trade rank they might have to get a bit more creative with.

9) Currently, the SLF role can be filled by NPC crew for a cost of credits based on a commission. Do you use this crew member? Why or why not?
Yes, whenever I'm geared up fully for combat, partially due to the improved performance they offer and how I usually use SLF capable ships, but also because I want FD to note that NPC crew are still being used even in their extremely minimalist state.

10) Following off #9, if other NPC crew were developed and cost similarly to the existing SLF pilot (potentially seeing a commission cut of your earnings nearing 30%), would you use them? Why or why not?
Yes, as long as the performance increase (when applied properly) is proportional to the loss of income.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I'd like to create an opportunity for the community to weigh in on multi-crew (and its less than stellar performance) but also consider what I think is necessary for getting multi-crew to its full potential: NPC crew members for all roles. I know NPC crew can be a rather passionate topic - Elite SLF pilots are impressive to say the least - but I also want to lay out a case for why Elite Dangerous needs more NPC crew functionality before it does any further work on multi-crew.

Why NPCs First?

The short answer is three points:

• Everyone can benefit from NPC crew, which means a much larger population can test and stress the game design of them and their roles
• Where wings are obviously a multiplayer feature (multiple ships), multi-crew is a multiplayer feature built for a traditionally NPC feature (one ship, one player)
• NPC features like a 'crew' are fleshed out based on utility and balance, both of which help flesh out how a multiplayer feature of similar design would work

The SLF role is spot on and, aside from bugs and glitches, is a fairly obvious role for a multiplayer feature based from the same ship. It's important to remember that the biggest question multi-crew has to answer is "why fly on your ship when I have my own?". The SLF answers this easily: because launching a fighter and 'defending' a mothership is an experience flying your 'own ship' doesn't give. When an SLF is destroyed, the pilot has several 'lives' to continue enjoying the feature. Destruction as an attendant eagle mk II or vulture, not so much. So we can see the SLF role is really quite well designed and an obvious benefit to both NPC and Multiplayer crew.

The Gunner role is...lacking. This is partially due to the fact most ships in the game capable of a gunner lack the hardpoints or outright slots to make much use of the role. As such, the role is essentially abandoned at this time. NPC development of the role, though, could see it find utility - or be totally scrapped when none is found. This is the best example of why features like multi-crew should really be built as NPC features first before deploying to multiplayer. The problem of the gunner role is less about its bugginess and more about its utility. The role simply isn't useful. Aside from an extra pip to work with, even a NPC gunner seems less than needed. That could change, if viewed from an NPC perspective first where boredom and player satisfaction isn't an issue.

Many more roles could potentially exist for NPCs, but unlike past games where NPC crew features are simple and 'boring' we know that Elite is seeking roles that are dynamic and enjoyable...because we want these roles to be for multi-crew, a multiplayer feature. The foundation for a dynamic and exciting role starts with its utility and balance. These elements are best tested and formed in the controlled environment of a NPC crew, available to all, then transitioned over to multiplayer usage. A role that is good for a NPC may be redundant and useful, but not multi-crew worthy. By first identifying the utility of the role, we can then begin to brainstorm how that utility can be expanded into a more exciting role suitable for a player, rather than try and work backwards.

Developing crew roles for mining, exploration, trade and passengers is best approached from a utility - NPC - standpoint first, rather than try and figure out 'how do we make this exciting?'. Excitement is pointless if the role has no utility. Even if the turrets worked well for the gunner role (and sometimes they do), most ships are more gimped with a gunner than when the pilot has total control! This speaks to the fundamental process for developing a crew feature, NPC or multiplayer, that must first address utility, then balance, and then excitement/satisfaction for a human controller.

So what exactly are you suggesting?

I think the community should shift its discussions and suggestions around multi-crew from focusing on what is multi-crew - a buggy multiplayer feature that is 50% useful - to what could be multi-crew from an NPC experience. This would require the following (none of which is easy to develop):

• The creation of NPC crew for the Gunner Role (allowing it to be tested, balanced, and possibly removed or split into other roles)
• The creation of NPC crew for other roles with other features of Elite in mind beyond combat
• Developer led discussion of what the community wants to see in crew utility and interaction (Payment, Satisfaction, Missions, Commands, Termination/Loss, Ranking/Upgrading/Specializing) from an NPC perspective. These discussions help fill out the wider question of "Why would a player want to take this role/allow a player to take this role over an NPC".
• Community led discussion on multiplayer interactions within the ship (multi-crew) as opposed to outside the ship (wings/PvP/PvE). As it stands, not a lot of thought has been put into that all important question from earlier: Why would I fly on your ship instead of mine? What does multi-crew offer me (Credits/Rank/Experience/Utility/Bonding) that my own ship does not in a wing? And Vice Versa, what does my own ship offer me that multi-crew doesn't. How do these two sets of answers compare to one another?

DISCUSSION QUESTIONS...

1) Why do you or do you not use multi-crew? Be specific. What keeps you in (or out) of that co-pilot seat?

2) What do you think multi-crew offers that winging up does not? Keep your answer in the context of the current build, not what it 'could be' in the future. (That question is later)

3) What do you think winging up offers that multi-crew does not? Keep your answer "..."

4) Do you think developing NPC crew for multiple roles (including the existing two roles) could help develop multi-crew?

5) A crucial component to crew is that it has utility and balance. While balancing players against NPC is difficult, do you think a 'crew' feature (multi-crew or NPC crew) is unfair to ships not capable of a crew (such as the Type-7, Dolphin, or Vulture)? Put another way, do you think Elite benefits from the addition of 'crews' for non-capital ships?

6) Following on #5, should a multi-crewed or NPC crewed ship have an advantage over a non-crew ship? EX: An Alliance Crusader (crewed fully with SLF) faces off against an Alliance Chieftain (no crew). Both are well built and engineered. Should the crew provide a strong advantage for the Crusader?

7) Multiplayer features thrive on choices and actions. Some features of Elite, like combat, lend themselves to this better than others, like exploration. Do you think all features of Elite should somehow benefit or include multi-crew? Or do you think multi-crew should only be part of some features?

8) Leading off #7, a hallmark of Elite is that nearly all ships can be built for nearly all features with decent success. Exploring in a FDS isn't ideal, but doable, and fighting in a Type-6 is brave but not wise. Most medium and nearly all large ships are multi-crew capable, too. Should crew roles be less structured and customizable, like the ships, or should the crew roles be fixed in ships based on their 'expected' use (much like military slots are more prevalent on combat-oriented ships).

9) Currently, the SLF role can be filled by NPC crew for a cost of credits based on a commission. Do you use this crew member? Why or why not?

10) Following off #9, if other NPC crew were developed and cost similarly to the existing SLF pilot (potentially seeing a commission cut of your earnings nearing 30%), would you use them? Why or why not?


You can answer them all, some, or none! Just food for thought. I'm curious to what the community thinks of NPC crew as a means to not only create a feature for all commanders, but also as a path towards a better and more intelligent multiplayer experience in multi-crew! Thanks for your input!

If you think NPC Crew (or Crew in general) are an awful idea, say so but also please explain why?
And particularly, if you support multi-crew but not NPC crew, explain why you support one but not the other.

The Marketing Department will supernova the sun, rather than lose one farthing of imaginary income from players buying new accounts.

 

[Chorda]

Anything that gets rid of telepresence would be a plus in my book. It's been suggested more than a few times that we could have NPC gunners who could be given over to player control in multiplayer.

 

[sandkid]

OP Author here,

Excellent answers all around thus far! A quick summary of what I'm seeing...

• NPC Crew seems to be a strong foundation for building out multi-crew in the opinions thus far
• Multi-crew as a feature (currently) seems dubious. One commenter pointed out multi-crew is a 'fenced-in set of actions' whereas winging up is a complete multiplayer experience. This highlights the 'question' in OP: what does multi-crew offer that winging up does not? "Why fly in your ship instead of mine?"
• NPC Crew roles ought be developed around the three career tracks (Combat, Trade, Exploration) rather than customized or more fluid in capability
• Some lively debate on the Gunner points out that a 'manned' turret can have distinct advantages (both human and AI capable) over pilot operated turrets (i.e. no gunner), but this also seems silly that an AI turret 'without an AI crew' is intentionally gimped to justify the use of crew. Another excellent example of how NPC crew functionality needs to answer the 'utility' question before thinking about the multiplayer aspect of that utility.

Thanks for the input thus far, I'd love to see more!

I did find it interesting that so far we have at least one opinion that favors NPC crew but dislikes multi-crew as a feature. Again, that big question "Why fly in your ship?" seems (to me) all important to any discussion of multi-crew with or without NPC crew as a feature.

 

[Chernabog]

I would be all for having more NPC's on board doing various roles (especially docking/undocking) and if it were to happen then I would probably come back to play ED again (stopped playing more than a year or so ago ... just lurk in the forums every now again to see if anything exciting is on the horizon).

One key thing that I think would be good for the game as a whole for having more use of NPC crew, is the fact that you would have to pay them in some way ... with credits being so easy to aquire, the payment of NPC's would give Frontier a credit sink that might be beneficial to the galactic economy ... also, think of all the micro payments (or this ARX stuff) that Frontier would also likely generate from folks wanting to customize their NPC's outfits etc.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

I would be all for having more NPC's on board doing various roles (especially docking/undocking) and if it were to happen then I would probably come back to play ED again (stopped playing more than a year or so ago ... just lurk in the forums every now again to see if anything exciting is on the horizon).

One key thing that I think would be good for the game as a whole for having more use of NPC crew, is the fact that you would have to pay them in some way ... with credits being so easy to aquire, the payment of NPC's would give Frontier a credit sink that might be beneficial to the galactic economy ... also, think of all the micro payments (or this ARX stuff) that Frontier would also likely generate from folks wanting to customize their NPC's outfits etc.

But, Frontier wants to sell copies of the game, a desire in conflict with this.

 

[sandkid]

But, Frontier wants to sell copies of the game, a desire in conflict with this.

Ralph, that's the second time you've hinted at multi-crew being in competition with or opposition to revenue for Frontier. Could you explain that a little more? (Not being snarky, really!)

Explain how multi-crew (and NPC crew, if I'm understanding your opinion correctly) interfere with selling copies of Elite and/or generating revenue for the company? How does this make a case against NPC crew and/or multi-crew? In your opinion, is there a way for the two to be reconciled?

Thanks for participating in the discussion!

 

[Red_Beard_98]

1) Why do you or do you not use multi-crew? Be specific. What keeps you in (or out) of that co-pilot seat?

I don't use multi-crew mostly because my real life friends and I are rarely online at the same time and I don't enjoy playing with randoms (for the most part). I like the Idea of it though.

2) What do you think multi-crew offers that winging up does not? Keep your answer in the context of the current build, not what it 'could be' in the future. (That question is later)

The ability to play with your friends regardless of in game location is definitely a plus since you can be thousands or tens of thousands of light years away from one another. In addition, it allows my less experienced friends to fly a ship (SLF) without fear of losing credits if they get destroyed and it helps build their combat experience.

3) What do you think winging up offers that multi-crew does not? Keep your answer "..."

Winging up allows my friends to get better used to flying their ships instead of my SLF's which tend to handle a bit different but I can still be there to help them out. I am also far more likely to wing with people I do not know well as opposed to multi-crewing with them. Rewards are also much better in wings than in multi-crew.

4) Do you think developing NPC crew for multiple roles (including the existing two roles) could help develop multi-crew?

Yes. I think if proper NPC crew mechanics had been introduced first then supplemented with real players after most of the details were worked out then we would have a much better system in place. Introducing new NPC roles could open the doors to new multi-crew roles in the future.

5) A crucial component to crew is that it has utility and balance. While balancing players against NPC is difficult, do you think a 'crew' feature (multi-crew or NPC crew) is unfair to ships not capable of a crew (such as the Type-7, Dolphin, or Vulture)? Put another way, do you think Elite benefits from the addition of 'crews' for non-capital ships?

Speaking of the Vulture, if I am not mistaken it has a spare seat but with current mechanics that seat is all but worthless (there are some niche uses). A ship like this would benefit from additional uses for crew (NPC or otherwise). Overall I don't see this kind of balance being much of an issue. Small ships have their uses and I've personally have never been concerned with having crew available for them. Larger ships feel like they should require crew to operate and Better crews should give small benefits.

6) Following on #5, should a multi-crewed or NPC crewed ship have an advantage over a non-crew ship? EX: An Alliance Crusader (crewed fully with SLF) faces off against an Alliance Chieftain (no crew). Both are well built and engineered. Should the crew provide a strong advantage for the Crusader?

Strong advantage? No. I would hate to see crews become another power creep. I think the additional distributor pip is already a bit much. Some mild benefits would be cool though. maybe a slightly larger blue zone for having a high ranked co-pilot; A slightly faster recharge on your distributor for a high ranked engineer. Stuff like that.

A different question to think about here is; Should a fully crewed ship without engineering be competitive with the same ship without crew but fully engineered? (my answer to that is no, because power creep)

7) Multiplayer features thrive on choices and actions. Some features of Elite, like combat, lend themselves to this better than others, like exploration. Do you think all features of Elite should somehow benefit or include multi-crew? Or do you think multi-crew should only be part of some features?

Crews should benefit all aspects of the game, equally as much if that were possible.

8) Leading off #7, a hallmark of Elite is that nearly all ships can be built for nearly all features with decent success. Exploring in a FDS isn't ideal, but doable, and fighting in a Type-6 is brave but not wise. Most medium and nearly all large ships are multi-crew capable, too. Should crew roles be less structured and customizable, like the ships, or should the crew roles be fixed in ships based on their 'expected' use (much like military slots are more prevalent on combat-oriented ships).

The way I see crews working best (as you are about to see I enjoy RPG's) is to rank up the same way as a player (harmless to elite) and having different skills you can choose from. Any crew member should be able to do any position but some will just be better at it and allow some fine tuning for specific roles for the ship. Commanders themselves should also have this. Hit elite in one of the 3 categories and chose a skill that adds a small bonus to some aspect of your ship. That might just be me though.

9) Currently, the SLF role can be filled by NPC crew for a cost of credits based on a commission. Do you use this crew member? Why or why not?

I do use this crew member. The only reason I have not fired her is because I spent some time ranking her up to deadly (working on elite but i'm out of the bubble currently) and I do like having her available when I decide to go into CZ's or haz res. I do not enjoy looking at the 500 million I have given her for the 10 hours of flying she has done though.

10) Following off #9, if other NPC crew were developed and cost similarly to the existing SLF pilot (potentially seeing a commission cut of your earnings nearing 30%), would you use them? Why or why not?

If more NPC crew were introduced I would like to see a lower rate per character. That being said, I would gladly give 30% of my earnings to my crew if they actually did useful stuff.

I have voiced my support for crews in the past and try not to keep posting in repetitive threads that come after ones I have already posted in but this one was very well put together so props to the OP on that. This doesn't feel like "just another" NPC crew thread. I understand that we can't expect new features any time soon but I hope something like this can become reality in the new era after the 2020 update and I really hope the devs see the value in reading threads like this one and taking some of the discussion here into consideration when planning the future of the game.

 

[Ralph Vargr]

Ralph, that's the second time you've hinted at multi-crew being in competition with or opposition to revenue for Frontier. Could you explain that a little more? (Not being snarky, really!)

Explain how multi-crew (and NPC crew, if I'm understanding your opinion correctly) interfere with selling copies of Elite and/or generating revenue for the company? How does this make a case against NPC crew and/or multi-crew? In your opinion, is there a way for the two to be reconciled?

Thanks for participating in the discussion!

Quite seriously, they wish to maximize the number of paying players. NPC crew do not buy new commander accounts, or alt accounts. This game is not always accessible to those who wish to play in groups, or those who do not wish to play in group play. In mining, other NPC ships could cover me, as I mined, or, I could hire up to three NPC ships to escort me while trading, or running missions. The code can support it. The money people want humans, not AI's, to fill those positions, for the revenue. Sadly for them, a significant number of players do not agree.

New players can join into multiplayer, but older players want more AI options. To reconcile these purchasing desires, Frontier might have to unbend just a little...

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

The main issue I have with the idea of NPC Crew is if the NPC can take the Pilot role (Like they can with the fighter), while the player takes control of the turrets. This changes the combat into a third person shooter and robs the game of one of it's best features (I.e. The ship to ship combat). It's one of those gameplay vs environment issues that causes immersion to be broken but gamplay preserved.

You could balance it by lowering the damage of turrets when a single player is taking control but can you imagine the complaints of immersion breaking gameplay.

Would Love to see my NPC crew-person on the bridge with me, even though they're not the most attractive people.

 

[Darth Montu]

I thought up an idea using npc multicrew to add pvp balance to larger ships. My thought was to give npcs a dmg bonus to turrets when on large ships only, with different amounts costing a higher percentage like higher skilled npc pilots cost. The dmg bonus would max out at around 30-35% and even then, only to large ships, and even then, only to turrets.

That way medium ships cant exploit, and large ships dont become the new OP meta.

 

[SP_Predicador]

1) Why do you or do you not use multi-crew? Be specific. What keeps you in (or out) of that co-pilot seat?

I don't use multi-crew because I play alone most of the time. And when flying in group there are normally tech problems going multi-crew more than 2 people together. Also, is so inefficient that I usually do multi-crew only to do some sightseeing between fellow explorers ships

2) What do you think multi-crew offers that winging up does not? Keep your answer in the context of the current build, not what it 'could be' in the future. (That question is later)

Today, I think multi-crew offers nothing over winging, because is so combat focused and is limited at only 3, being worst than wings.

3) What do you think winging up offers that multi-crew does not? Keep your answer "..."

More playing efficiency and 1 person more playing in group.

4) Do you think developing NPC crew for multiple roles (including the existing two roles) could help develop multi-crew?

Yes, I think so. In my opinion in a game so mmo-less like this, is more important NPC crew than Multi-crew and would be more useful for more players.

5) A crucial component to crew is that it has utility and balance. While balancing players against NPC is difficult, do you think a 'crew' feature (multi-crew or NPC crew) is unfair to ships not capable of a crew (such as the Type-7, Dolphin, or Vulture)? Put another way, do you think Elite benefits from the addition of 'crews' for non-capital ships?

That efficiency advantage can be balanced if you must use npc crew to pilot the really big ships. What is really balance breaking, in my opinion, is that one person can pilot an op anaconda without problems. Also, you can set a high level of fee to npc crew services.

6) Following on #5, should a multi-crewed or NPC crewed ship have an advantage over a non-crew ship? EX: An Alliance Crusader (crewed fully with SLF) faces off against an Alliance Chieftain (no crew). Both are well built and engineered. Should the crew provide a strong advantage for the Crusader?

Yes, the crew should provide an advantage. But to balance this, that big ships shoul be really hard to pilot without npc crew. And that crew should be expensive.

7) Multiplayer features thrive on choices and actions. Some features of Elite, like combat, lend themselves to this better than others, like exploration. Do you think all features of Elite should somehow benefit or include multi-crew? Or do you think multi-crew should only be part of some features?

In my opinion, one of the main fail of multi-crew when launched, was being combat focused only. And that Frontier let drop the engineer station.

8) Leading off #7, a hallmark of Elite is that nearly all ships can be built for nearly all features with decent success. Exploring in a FDS isn't ideal, but doable, and fighting in a Type-6 is brave but not wise. Most medium and nearly all large ships are multi-crew capable, too. Should crew roles be less structured and customizable, like the ships, or should the crew roles be fixed in ships based on their 'expected' use (much like military slots are more prevalent on combat-oriented ships).

I would prefer rol focused ships, but it's too late. If in 4 years FD has been incapable of balance the Anaconda, I don't expect a radical change in ships ecosystem.

9) Currently, the SLF role can be filled by NPC crew for a cost of credits based on a commission. Do you use this crew member? Why or why not?

Yes, I use this feature every day. And because is both really usefull and to bring life to my lifeless ships. It's a shame that I can't see my slf pilot on the bridge.

10) Following off #9, if other NPC crew were developed and cost similarly to the existing SLF pilot (potentially seeing a commission cut of your earnings nearing 30%), would you use them? Why or why not?

Even if they were expensives, I would hire them. I really want more life in my bridge and more crew management.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

It will only be developed when played. And since it isn't...

 

[sandkid]

It will only be developed when played. And since it isn't...

I see this opinion expressed a lot across these forums and, unfortunately, it's prevalence implies it is true. That said, allow me to offer up a (hopeful) suggestion:

Features like Mining 2.0, Fleet Carriers (as yet delivered, I know), Interstellar Initiatives and the like came about from community interest not being played (as they didn't exist or existed poorly). Put simply, community discussion of features not in the game has led to a number of features that are now currently in the game (or planned to be).

The suggestion (and the reason for my OP)...

It seems like there is support for NPC crew, not just as a feature but also as a tool for Frontier to better explore and map out a multiplayer feature like multi-crew. If the community is willing to discuss and/or support the NPC crew feature and its expansion, it's reasonable to assume Frontier will take notice and see the benefits of re-routing plans for muilti-crew (if there are any to begin with) by focusing on the NPC aspect of crew first.

So, another question: what can we (the community) begin doing to highlight a desire for NPC crew functionality? Beyond participation in this post, since I'm a farcry from a 'community leader' or influencer or what-have-you. Do you think such individuals are needed to highlight the feature (or lack thereof)? As an example: do we need Obsidian Ant or some other household name for Elite to talk up the potential of such a feature?