Hardware & Technical Dual Mongoose T50 RH/LH pair first impressions.

[GraXXoR]

Got my Dual T50s today and set them up forthwith.

Packaging:

Packaging was good quality and tight. No play or bits and bobs floating around.

Base and Gimbal:

Bases are solid and very well built. They arrived in pristine condition, not a single scratch or burr... They were lighter than I imagined, due to aluminium construction.
The gimbals actions were ok, however the gimbal of the right hand joystick is slightly rougher than the left one.
Moreover, there is some sort of very slight discontinuity in the gradient of the cam, perhaps imperfect machining.
I asked for them to install the softest springs since I'm not using extensions but alas, they came with standard springs. It took about an hour to replace both gimbals' springs... I wanted to replace the cams, too, but was entirely unable to undo the screws which had been locktited in place so I left them in.
Still with the softest springs, responsiveness increased markedly and the slight roughness in the right hand gimbal abated.

Internally, the extreme build quality is apparent... VERY nice gimbal construction... These things are 100% metal. No faffing with massaging balls with dodgy lube (!).
The electronics are custom built and firmly mounted with a very tidy little circuit board.

Grip:

Coming from the Saitek X65F, I was surprised that neither the material of the grips themselves nor the actions of the switches were quite up to the standard of that joystick....
Before you do a double WTSF, SAITEK???!?!?!111 Please read a review of the Saitek X65F... It was an incredible, all metal construction force joystick, superbly over engineered and perhaps the ONLY high quality joystick Saitek ever made. Incredible.
Don't get me wrong, the quality is still very high, but just not THAT high. If you come from a metal grip, you won't help but think.... Hmmm... That's very... plasticky.
One thing they did very well though is the ergonomics... There are two adjustable hand-rests available and within minutes, I was comfortably reaching even the most remote hat and switch on the grip.
Both left and right felt like they were made for my hands.

Switches:

This is my biggest gripe. The buttons were fine, but the hats... Oh dear... Of the six hats (between the two joysticks) three of them had faulty actions.

Top centre hat on LH joystick has no left or right feedback and response was intermittent.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bojiw4l4llu6mtb/ファイル 2017-11-30 2 18 49.mov?dl=0

Bottom centre hat on RH joystick had a faulty left action. Need to REALLY press hard to get a response.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yq2zsu1mxuihwv6/ファイル 2017-11-30 2 19 27.mov?dl=0

The bottom centre hat on LH joystick was also very heavy in the LH direct, but not quite as serious as the right.

Once I have time to play with them a bit, I'll keep you informed of how things pan out.

 

[d8veh]

Mine came today. I have more or less the same. The upper hat on the tight stick had no feedback left and right, and the lower hat on the left is very imprecise. When I push it left, it works switches 16 and 15. Also, one of my Z-axes doesn't look right. I don't have anything to calibrate it, so I don't know if it's a problem or not.

Lastly, and most frustrating of all. I've checked everywhere, but I cannot find any drivers or software. Did you find any? If so, where?

 

[GraXXoR]

Mine came today. I have more or less the same. The upper hat on the tight stick had no feedback left and right, and the lower hat on the left is very imprecise. When I push it left, it works switches 16 and 15. Also, one of my Z-axes doesn't look right. I don't have anything to calibrate it, so I don't know if it's a problem or not.

Lastly, and most frustrating of all. I've checked everywhere, but I cannot find any drivers or software. Did you find any? If so, where?

The software is currently in Beta, if you ask they will deliver it. I’m glad I’m not the only one with these issues.

Although the gimbals seem good value, the grip feels cheap for the $160 asking price. And the switches are just downright poor.

 

[d8veh]

Have you got the beta software? Does it work? I can't find anything about it?

To be honest, I'm sitting here a little disappointed. I thought that for £600 I would get a proper product.

 

[Zeeman]

The software is currently in Beta, if you ask they will deliver it. I’m glad I’m not the only one with these issues.

Although the gimbals seem good value, the grip feels cheap for the $160 asking price. And the switches are just downright poor.

Interesting - switches seem good on mine, though agree the grip is very "plasticky". Just remember, though, a Warthog grip (you can buy as spares from TM) is always a viable option - for a right handed stick, at least.

Z...

 

[GraXXoR]

OK... Fixed...

So I opened her up and performed surgery on her, with the blessing of the folks at Virpil.
It turned out that both lower hats could be fixed with half a turn of a screw.....

They are now crisp and clean.... Looks like a simple QA gaffe.

As for the upper, completely unresponsive hat, I noticed that the plastic shaft of the hat was shiny from the mould plastic, whereas all of the others were dull matte as if the had been finished off with some fine wet and dry.

On measurement with my trusty micrometer, I noticed it was a touch bigger than the other three, working hat shafts.

It looks like this hat had not gone through a final turning or reduction process to the correct width...

So I filed the shaft down and now it’s 100% sharp… The clicks are well defined and crisp…


I’ll consider my device fixed with a simple, 45 minute procedure…
[video]https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jittf8giwjwwnd/fiexed.mov[/video]

1) Filed shaft down to create a slightly squarish profile with 600C

2) Fine tuned the thickness and smoothed with 1000C

3) Polished and finished with a nylon strap.

Here are a few images from the surgery.

I'm impressed with the grade of the wiring... No crappy stuff like my "Pro" flight pedals' wiring... No loose ends, all firmly glued down... Circuit board in the grip is as professional as the one in the base and it's solidly held down and very clearly labelled with removable plastic headers so no soldering needed. The wires are all clear of moving parts so there is no chance of rubbing or wear and tear damaging the wires.

Impressive...

In conclusion, I'm looking forward to their future products... They show great promise and with a little QA tweakage, I suspect they're going to be a major player in the high quality, dual stick market.

 

[Zeeman]

Nice work! You've also saved me the hassle of cracking my grip open to inspect it for a 4 way hat + push upgrade to the thumb rest button.

I'm also looking at a way to trigger the secondary fire button press on it's own, now that I see it, I am wondering if I can 3D print something up.

Sounds like you've got the button press experience I have now. Kind of a shame you had to do that (very few people these days seem to be willing to crack things open - not that I can blame them, and shouldn't have to), but a good result.

Also, remember to tighten the screws up to avoid any creaking when you close the grip.

Z...

 

[d8veh]

I'll ask again: What are you guys doing for software and drivers? I've got nothing. I asked them on their forum about it, but they don't seem to want to reply. They say not to use Windows calibration.

 

[GraXXoR]

I'll ask again: What are you guys doing for software and drivers? I've got nothing. I asked them on their forum about it, but they don't seem to want to reply. They say not to use Windows calibration.

I've got no software, but I've been offered a calibrator that will calibrate the Z axis (little finger brake lever) The main axes are absolutely spot on, but coming from a force stick (which is completely motionless), I can't get my hand to move to the extremes of the motion, so I want to compress the range... I only want a half of the ~20cm motion I have now.

 

[Zeeman]

I'll ask again: What are you guys doing for software and drivers? I've got nothing. I asked them on their forum about it, but they don't seem to want to reply. They say not to use Windows calibration.

Software - I use the same software as for my Warthog - ie. - none.

Calibration is spot on off the bat, and I am happy with the binding options i. ED for now.

VPC software is still a Beta work in progress, though most seem to say it's not worth messing with yet. I'm interested inseeing it too, but personally, don't need it for. ow.

Z...

 

[d8veh]

I'm having terrible trouble using these sticks. They're virtually unusable and I can't figure out what's wrong. can anybody help?

When I look at the Windows game controller settings, everything looks normal. The dot from the X and Y axes moves fairly sensitively with the sticks, but in game, there are massive dead zones, so I'm overshooting with the controls all the time and it's really difficult to get a Sidewinder through the slot in the station, despite my 4500 hours in the game. When I go to the ED controls settings, the slider for dead zones is stuck on the left side. I can't move it, but moving it to the right would increase the dead zone anyway, wouldn't it? How do I get rid of these dead zones?

 

[GraXXoR]

I'm having terrible trouble using these sticks. They're virtually unusable and I can't figure out what's wrong. can anybody help?

When I look at the Windows game controller settings, everything looks normal. The dot from the X and Y axes moves fairly sensitively with the sticks, but in game, there are massive dead zones, so I'm overshooting with the controls all the time and it's really difficult to get a Sidewinder through the slot in the station, despite my 4500 hours in the game. When I go to the ED controls settings, the slider for dead zones is stuck on the left side. I can't move it, but moving it to the right would increase the dead zone anyway, wouldn't it? How do I get rid of these dead zones?

You didn't use Windows calibration on them, did you?

If you did, then apparently you'll end up with unusable joysticks.. (I can't vouch because I've steered clear of it.
he game controller settings (showing the XY axes AOK) shows the physical data from the device, but that is filtered by windows and those filters are adjusted by calibration software before feeding it into the game.
It seems that many people see a problem with the RZ axis (pinky brake lever) and try to calibrate it using windows' simplistic software, rendering the joysticks useless..

Write to them and they'll send you the proper calibration software.

This software alters the firmware to cater to the individual physical response of the various sensors in the joystick and scale the output over the full range (say 0 to 4096 for a 12 bit sensor).

Good luck, let us know what happens. (I'm waiting for their delayed software myself because those pinky brake levers look useful.

 

[d8veh]

I fixed it in the bindings after reading that people had the same problem with other sticks. You have to bind the axes not the movement.

What are you guys using for bindings? Has anybody got a decent scheme yet. I'm struggling to find an arrangement that works as well as my X52. I'm using twin sticks.

 

[GraXXoR]

I fixed it in the bindings after reading that people had the same problem with other sticks. You have to bind the axes not the movement.

What are you guys using for bindings? Has anybody got a decent scheme yet. I'm struggling to find an arrangement that works as well as my X52. I'm using twin sticks.

I’m tempted to go back to my X65F which was perfect. The lack of thumb hats is litterally crippling me. The POV hat is no substitute. Even as a trigger the thumb button is crap because you have to take your thumb away from the hats to use it.

 

[Zeeman]

I’m tempted to go back to my X65F which was perfect. The lack of thumb hats is litterally crippling me. The POV hat is no substitute. Even as a trigger the thumb button is crap because you have to take your thumb away from the hats to use it.

Consider a Warthog grip - for the right hand, at least.

Z...

 

[d8veh]

I've used my twin sticks for about 10 hours now, and I can tell you that it's really difficult to change after using the same ones for 4500 hours.

I have relatively small hands, which means that the Virpil controllers are not really suitable for me so I've probably wasted £600. Bear this in mind before buying them if you have small hands too. The main problem is the pinky button is too far around the stick. I can't understand why it wasn't positioned at the back where everybody would be able to reach it. The same applies to the thumb button half way down the stick. It can be reached, but not instantly. If the button had been on the back of the protuberance instead of the side, it would have been possible to operate it with your middle finger. That would have then given 4 extra buttons to use instantly for FA on/off, boost, chaff and heatsinks. Thumbs are already engaged on pips (right) and thrusters (left), so when you're engaged in combat, all the other buttons except the triggers are more or less redundant because I don't have any spare digits to operate them.

I guess that if enough people buy these sticks, someone will figure out a logical button assignment plan. I have a working one, but it's not very user-friendly. I feel like a complete noob at the moment. I struggled in an unengineered Vulture, so I had to dig out a shield tank Anaconda that doesn't need such fast reactions.

edit: After studying my hand in the stick for a bit, I can see the problem. My index fingers are engaged on the triggers and my thumbs on the two hats/POVs. That leaves 6 fingers that can't do anything useful regarding instant button presses. It would probably be a lot better with the Virpil throttle, but I wanted twin sticks to fly FA off.

 

[Zeeman]

...

edit: After studying my hand in the stick for a bit, I can see the problem. My index fingers are engaged on the triggers and my thumbs on the two hats/POVs. That leaves 6 fingers that can't do anything useful regarding instant button presses. It would probably be a lot better with the Virpil throttle, but I wanted twin sticks to fly FA off.

I suspect this is why it works fine for me - being a HOTAS user, as apposed to dual sticks, the CH Pro throttle has enough well located buttons to keep all my left hand digits occupied, meaning my right hand is fairly free to just aim and shoot.

Basically, my left hand deal with most throttle and thrust related things (forward/back thrust, and lateral thrusters, boost, FSD jumps, FA On/Off, galaxy map and system map, and pips. Pedals deal with yaw.

My right hand deal with roll/pitch, fire buttons, target selection and sub targets. Along with navigating the menu panels. Sorting out a good button layout is half the battle, and then you need to get used to it. Mine is still a work in progress, heck, I'ver had my Warthog over a year, and it took 3 months to get a god working setup after I had been using a VKB Cobra M5. I'm also still a total noob when using the Virpil, a year of being used to 4 way plus press hat at my right thumb is hard to un-learn!

I'm not convinced you totally wasted your cash. I'd consider looking at a Warthog Grip (email TM and tell them you broke yours, they'll sell you a new grip), then, perhaps, wait for the space grips from Virpil for the left hand.

Z...

 

[Viking84]

Interesting thread, my setup should be arriving later today so I'm keen to hear about your experiences. Hopefully mine won't require immediate surgery to function properly!

When you guys talk about windows calibration - I take it you are not just referencing the "properties" screen that you can find in the game controllers panel?

 

[d8veh]

They didn't send me the beta software. Instead, they said that they will release the normal version this week. Without it, all you can do is plug in the sticks and accept the response curves that Windows gives them. They work OK at the moment.

 

[znôrt]

very interesting thread, please keep it up as i was planning to get me some of these (waiting for the throttle to be available later this month).

regarding surgery ... i remember reading on the site that the products have no user serviceable parts inside and opening them would void the warranty. did you get a special go-ahead from them??

one thing i'm eager to know about is the stick's precision, i.e. for aim. any comment on that? what about dead zones?