DW2 - A missed opportunity

[ArchAngelofDeath]

To some degree this may have been done, or tried at least, but in open you DW2 leaders should have "hired" some squads to run protection. This would simulate real life. Think destroyers escorting merchant ships in WW2 etc.
PvP "griefers" as you call us would actually enjoy the better challenge facing an escort during attacks.
I had a submarine game years ago Silent hunter or something like that. If all I did was torpedo merchants it would have been boring as hell. The destroyers made the game interesting.

If you guys do a DW3 get some escorts. You'll be safer, not safe, but safer. And we'll enjoy the added aspect of combat ships amongst the sheep.

In summary, rather than whine about the issue, find a solution that fits and even adds new game aspects to your play.

 

[Stealthie]

So, if somebody was to "hire" you, you'd start fighting against other PvPers instead of attacking explorers?

Cos, I don't think you would.

I think you'd take whatever "payment" was arranged then carry on bursting exploration ships and claim that you're RPing as a turncoat.

 

[Cmdr DRAGONHEART]

Instence problems...

 

[Amargosa]

Most so-called PVPer avoid challenge at all costs. It's for that reason why respawn-camping and killing of low levels in levelling zones is so common in all other MMOs.

 

[Ashnak]

Sorry - but who is whining?

I mean, apart from members of the PvP crowd who don't find enough ships to kill in Open because almost everyone is flying in a friendly PG?

 

[Deleted member 115407]

To some degree this may have been done, or tried at least, but in open you DW2 leaders should have "hired" some squads to run protection.

They have protection. They all run in PG to protect people from NPCs and what-not.

 

[Der Zeitgeist]

In summary, rather than whine about the issue, find a solution that fits and even adds new game aspects to your play.

The only one who's whining here is you, probably because the DG2 kill count is slowly drying out.

Other than that, we don't need game aspects like station camping griefers in Elite, thank you very much.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

So, if somebody was to "hire" you, you'd start fighting against other PvPers instead of attacking explorers?

Cos, I don't think you would.

I think you'd take whatever "payment" was arranged then carry on bursting exploration ships and claim that you're RPing as a turncoat.

If I'd get paintjobs and shipkits I'd be in. But yeah, noone was or is ready to pay for safety.

 

[Gemai]

"I wanted more fun"... isn't a good argument for pure explorers and partial roleplayers to sacrifice theirs. There were troll hunters in the starting system and the first meetup etc. So you had your opposition - and I saw a youtube video of some trolls running AWAY from them.

In real life a random pirate can't buy an American Frigate. And if you lost your ship, getting a new good one is very hard to next to impossible. Private mercenaries also often don't get top equipment.

So if the ingame actions had real consequences - you losing Fed rank etc. and access to new Corvettes and NO insurance - sure, I would be for let's be realistic. Until that is the case you don't trade thrill for thrill, but THEIR fun for yours.

So no, I think DW2 does it fine. They play THEIR game, you do yours.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The organisers of DW2 have been very clear throughout that they recommend Private Group as the mode to use, and don't take any responsibility for what happens in Open. They were initially a bit overwhelmed processing the join requests when there was that big rush at the end, but that seems to be mostly sorted now. I expect that's something they might be a bit more prepared for when we have DW3 in a few years time.

If you want an expedition in Open including substantial numbers of escort ships, capable of protecting the fleet, you probably need to organise it yourself ... and think seriously how to address the obvious issues with that sort of fleet defence

- conventional "escort patrol" doesn't work in Elite Dangerous, because any ship weak enough to not be able to safely high-wake behind its own shields is also not going to survive just because its attacker is tanking a wing shooting at it for 30 seconds.

- with instancing issues you would need approximately even numbers of escorts and explorers to make it likely that an explorer was being escorted when attacked. Probably a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio to have enough escorts to be useful.

- vetting that many combat pilots would be extremely tricky, especially at short notice. You probably wouldn't need an external threat...

- combat at mass meetups is just unpleasant all round because of the frame rate and lag issues. An attacker (who can shoot anything) has a much easier job in that sort of situation than a defender (who can only shoot the attacker, if they can identify them)

The easiest way is to have the expedition made up of hardened ships in their own right - at which point it can just run away if anyone attacks and doesn't really need an escort. You might think that's an unrealistic expectation for explorers, and that's probably true, but it's more realistic than expecting the explorers to stick to (or even read) the rigid behavioural protocols needed to keep their instance free of attackers if they don't do that.

A "defend the convoy" war game might well make an interesting PvP scenario - especially if you can agree beforehand to set up defences and offences so that it resembles an escort mission - but combining that with an expedition made up mostly of people who aren't there for the combat isn't going to work.

 

[Winterwalker]

If I'd get paintjobs and shipkits I'd be in. But yeah, noone was or is ready to pay for safety.

That's a great idea ^ .. especially as DWE2 has at least tacit / arms-length support of FDev (because group jaunts like this are I think good both for the game and community - explorer AND ganker - cohesion).

I'm not taking a side on this because I'm not on either expedition but in-game payment is tricky not only because of gold sharing but also without any in game way to police, and not least because you'd be asking explorers to pay out of the (probably high) exploration credits they'll make but before they've made them. There are probably ways to do it but I think it would have to be game supported and while you could argue DWE2 has missed the boat, perhaps it's something of a lesson for DWE3 (I don't remember DWE having the same 'problems').

Playing in solo/pg is of course possible but suboptimal imo, good for a stop gap but it's a rich game if you really can hire strangers or issue bounties for good or bad effects on the expedition and find the majority of players sharing one mode. Going into solo is frustrating for pirates, being attacked in a lightweight build frustration for explorers. I'm sure devs will be learning a lot from DWE2 and DG2 myself.

 

[ArchAngelofDeath]

So, if somebody was to "hire" you, you'd start fighting against other PvPers instead of attacking explorers?

Cos, I don't think you would.

I think you'd take whatever "payment" was arranged then carry on bursting exploration ships and claim that you're RPing as a turncoat.

There are groups who defend. Not all PvP groups are the same. We have recently battled Adel's Armada for example as they attacked us in the name of defending others.

 

[ArchAngelofDeath]

The organisers of DW2 have been very clear throughout that they recommend Private Group as the mode to use, and don't take any responsibility for what happens in Open. They were initially a bit overwhelmed processing the join requests when there was that big rush at the end, but that seems to be mostly sorted now. I expect that's something they might be a bit more prepared for when we have DW3 in a few years time.

If you want an expedition in Open including substantial numbers of escort ships, capable of protecting the fleet, you probably need to organise it yourself ... and think seriously how to address the obvious issues with that sort of fleet defence

- conventional "escort patrol" doesn't work in Elite Dangerous, because any ship weak enough to not be able to safely high-wake behind its own shields is also not going to survive just because its attacker is tanking a wing shooting at it for 30 seconds.

- with instancing issues you would need approximately even numbers of escorts and explorers to make it likely that an explorer was being escorted when attacked. Probably a 2:1 or 3:1 ratio to have enough escorts to be useful.

- vetting that many combat pilots would be extremely tricky, especially at short notice. You probably wouldn't need an external threat...

- combat at mass meetups is just unpleasant all round because of the frame rate and lag issues. An attacker (who can shoot anything) has a much easier job in that sort of situation than a defender (who can only shoot the attacker, if they can identify them)

The easiest way is to have the expedition made up of hardened ships in their own right - at which point it can just run away if anyone attacks and doesn't really need an escort. You might think that's an unrealistic expectation for explorers, and that's probably true, but it's more realistic than expecting the explorers to stick to (or even read) the rigid behavioural protocols needed to keep their instance free of attackers if they don't do that.

A "defend the convoy" war game might well make an interesting PvP scenario - especially if you can agree beforehand to set up defences and offences so that it resembles an escort mission - but combining that with an expedition made up mostly of people who aren't there for the combat isn't going to work.

I didn't say I had it all worked out. Just an idea to kick around.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

The only good griefer is a bored griefer.

Why don't you lot try to organise something for yourself? You know, among PvPers. All the challenge you need.

Coming to PvEers of all people to get your PvP fix is embarrasing.

 

[WindWpn]

To some degree this may have been done, or tried at least, but in open you DW2 leaders should have "hired" some squads to run protection. This would simulate real life. Think destroyers escorting merchant ships in WW2 etc.
PvP "griefers" as you call us would actually enjoy the better challenge facing an escort during attacks.
I had a submarine game years ago Silent hunter or something like that. If all I did was torpedo merchants it would have been boring as hell. The destroyers made the game interesting.

If you guys do a DW3 get some escorts. You'll be safer, not safe, but safer. And we'll enjoy the added aspect of combat ships amongst the sheep.

In summary, rather than whine about the issue, find a solution that fits and even adds new game aspects to your play.

I do not need escorts.... I have the vastness of Stellar Forge for protection...

 

[Diostar50]

To some degree this may have been done, or tried at least, but in open you DW2 leaders should have "hired" some squads to run protection. This would simulate real life. Think destroyers escorting merchant ships in WW2 etc.
PvP "griefers" as you call us would actually enjoy the better challenge facing an escort during attacks.
I had a submarine game years ago Silent hunter or something like that. If all I did was torpedo merchants it would have been boring as hell. The destroyers made the game interesting.

If you guys do a DW3 get some escorts. You'll be safer, not safe, but safer. And we'll enjoy the added aspect of combat ships amongst the sheep.

In summary, rather than whine about the issue, find a solution that fits and even adds new game aspects to your play.

What you ask is impossible in elite. Instancing makes it impossible. if we all shared the same server and could guarantee to have protection at any moment and not have to rely on match making when attack occurs, then it could work. but you'll never see a game like that now, certainly not in elite. Developers have found instancing to be cheap and effective, so out goes all the imagination of massive fleet battles and defense vs attack. There's a reason why big PvP events in elite has never worked or been attempted in 4 years, because when people sit down to work out how it could work with instance and trust of who defends and who attacks, they realize its impossible job. PG's are therefore the surrogate defense mode for all events because they are the only way people can remove players from their universe that break rules of event. You cant do that in open, so that's why these events cant work in open, and why no one will ever attempt them. Waste of time.

 

[Goose4291]

So, if somebody was to "hire" you, you'd start fighting against other PvPers instead of attacking explorers?

Cos, I don't think you would.

I think you'd take whatever "payment" was arranged then carry on bursting exploration ships and claim that you're RPing as a turncoat.

The existence of groups like GARD or Adles Armada conflicts with your assessment.

 

[jj.justme]

To some degree this may have been done, or tried at least, but in open you DW2 leaders should have "hired" some squads to run protection. This would simulate real life. Think destroyers escorting merchant ships in WW2 etc.
PvP "griefers" as you call us would actually enjoy the better challenge facing an escort during attacks.
I had a submarine game years ago Silent hunter or something like that. If all I did was torpedo merchants it would have been boring as hell. The destroyers made the game interesting.

If you guys do a DW3 get some escorts. You'll be safer, not safe, but safer. And we'll enjoy the added aspect of combat ships amongst the sheep.

In summary, rather than whine about the issue, find a solution that fits and even adds new game aspects to your play.

I understand and even share your reasoning, but it is literally impossible to do in this game.

Apart from the instance problems, the example you put is not valid for this game: in the WWII the destroyers adapted their speed to that of the merchants... Can you imagine combat ships with jump of 15-20 ly accompanying explorer ships with jump of 50 or more ly?

If the explorer ships adapt to the mediocre jump of the escort ships: What is the point of becoming a pure explorer ship? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[ArchAngelofDeath]

I understand and even share your reasoning, but it is literally impossible to do in this game.

Apart from the instance problems, the example you put is not valid for this game: in the WWII the destroyers adapted their speed to that of the merchants... Can you imagine combat ships with jump of 15-20 ly accompanying explorer ships with jump of 50 or more ly?

If the explorer ships adapt to the mediocre jump of the escort ships: What is the point of becoming a pure explorer ship? It doesn't make any sense.

Well I can't fix the instancing issue others pointed out but the gankers aren't "following" you. They are hitting your stopping points. And for the same reason you point out. A PvP FDL does not jump like a jumpaconda/DBX/ASP. So I get your point but the escorts could simply get to your destination ahead of you by leaving sooner.
And as pointed out above, GARD, Adles Armada and a host of other groups exist to defend. Go look in the squadrons threads. There's plenty of them.

Anyway, whatever. I offered an idea. Perhaps imperfect, but an idea.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

Can you imagine combat ships with jump of 15-20 ly accompanying explorer ships with jump of 50 or more ly?

That would have been true on DW1 - which is one of the several reasons it didn't have a group of hostiles following it around - but nowadays? Nowadays you can kill without compromising range.
https://s.orbis.zone/1-66

50 LY range, enough firepower to wipe out an unhardened ship in seconds, enough shields and agility to escape if it runs into an escort, and if you don't kill it outright then it can heal almost any damage it took indefinitely, plus it can neutron boost to keep up. It probably outjumps a significant fraction of the explorers...

Defending against that sort of thing would be an interesting tactical and strategic problem if anyone wants to organise an Open-only expedition, but as I said above, more for a formal "war game" than for any intent to actually explore out there.