Early analysis on ring visibility

[Romeo India Charlie]

I've been obsessing with ring visibility since I started visiting the largest rings. I decided to put the numbers of the rings I visited in a spreadsheet to test the hypothesis that ring density defined the in-game visual rendering. Density is defined by the mass divided by the volume. Since we don't have the rings volume in cubic kms we will assume a ring height of 1 km making the volume equal to the area.

I calculated the area by subtracting the area of inner ring radius from the area of the outer ring radius, something like (PI * outer_radius ^ 2) - (PI * inner_radius ^ 2). I then divided the mass of the ring by this area. The results are the following:

system	body	visible	density (MT/km3)
TRAIKEOU RY-Q D5-1	10	no	0.005
HD 167016	B3	no	0.006
COL 107 SECTOR UY-Q B34-4	AB3	no	0.006
THAILEIA TM-A C2-0	7	no	0.020
TRAIKAAE BD-F C13-2	10	no	0.028
SWOIPHS RL-J D10-47	9	yes	0.205
HIP 104643	AB1	yes	0.288
DROJAU IX-R D5-23	7	yes	0.295
SLEGI ZA-W E2-9	9	yes	1.463
LTT 12696	3	yes	2.977
BLEAE THUA YE-H D10-29	10	yes	33.655
GLUDGOE TV-X C1-1	2	yes	150.329
GLUDGEIA XP-P D5-41	10	yes	602.846

With this very small sample, it is obvious that density allows a separation between visible and invisible rings. I will be the first to admit that this is a very rough conclusion that doesn't even allow decent predictions. For starters, it suggests the hypothesis is correct but doesn't allow for predictions since there's a gap between 0.028 and 0.205. Seems a small difference considering the highest density is several magnitudes larger, but several rings I visited fall in the Top 10 Largest Rings by Ring Mass which skews the numbers considerably. Another problem is that I only used inner radius, outer radius and mass, which may be neglecting other variables, and there are many, like parent type, ring type, etc.

There's another point that may help clear this. In the system map there are rings that are slightly transparent. All of the rings that are invisible in-game are slightly transparent in the system map. However, there are visible rings that are slightly transparent in the system map.

I will continue to analyse the rings I visit and report new findings here. Until then I'd like to ask those who are interested and willing to help to report rings that are invisible or rings that are slightly transparent in the system map and, if possible, if they are visible or not in-game.

Thank you for reading and any help you can provide.

 

[Vithigar]

Try this custom criteria in Elite Observatory. One caveat is that it doesn't filter out asteroid belts. I guess another caveat is that I haven't tested it or checked any of the results, just implemented the math with a 46T/km² threshold.

    <Criteria Comparator="Less" Value="0.000046">
        <Operation Operator="Divide">
            <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:1:Mass</FirstValue>
            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                <Operation Operator="Subtract">
                    <FirstValue Type="Operation">
                        <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                            <FirstValue Type="Number">3.14159</FirstValue>
                            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                                <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                                    <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:1:OuterRad</FirstValue>
                                    <SecondValue Type="EventData">Ring:1:OuterRad</SecondValue>
                                </Operation>
                            </SecondValue>
                        </Operation>
                    </FirstValue>
                    <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                        <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                            <FirstValue Type="Number">3.14159</FirstValue>
                            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                                <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                                    <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:1:InnerRad</FirstValue>
                                    <SecondValue Type="EventData">Ring:1:InnerRad</SecondValue>
                                </Operation>
                            </SecondValue>
                        </Operation>
                    </SecondValue>
                </Operation>
            </SecondValue>
        </Operation>
        <Description>Low Visibility A Ring</Description>
    </Criteria>
   
    <Criteria Comparator="Less" Value="0.000046">
        <Operation Operator="Divide">
            <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:2:Mass</FirstValue>
            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                <Operation Operator="Subtract">
                    <FirstValue Type="Operation">
                        <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                            <FirstValue Type="Number">3.14159</FirstValue>
                            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                                <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                                    <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:2:OuterRad</FirstValue>
                                    <SecondValue Type="EventData">Ring:2:OuterRad</SecondValue>
                                </Operation>
                            </SecondValue>
                        </Operation>
                    </FirstValue>
                    <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                        <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                            <FirstValue Type="Number">3.14159</FirstValue>
                            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                                <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                                    <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:2:InnerRad</FirstValue>
                                    <SecondValue Type="EventData">Ring:2:InnerRad</SecondValue>
                                </Operation>
                            </SecondValue>
                        </Operation>
                    </SecondValue>
                </Operation>
            </SecondValue>
        </Operation>
        <Description>Low Visibility B Ring</Description>
    </Criteria>
   
    <Criteria Comparator="Less" Value="0.000046">
        <Operation Operator="Divide">
            <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:3:Mass</FirstValue>
            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                <Operation Operator="Subtract">
                    <FirstValue Type="Operation">
                        <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                            <FirstValue Type="Number">3.14159</FirstValue>
                            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                                <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                                    <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:3:OuterRad</FirstValue>
                                    <SecondValue Type="EventData">Ring:3:OuterRad</SecondValue>
                                </Operation>
                            </SecondValue>
                        </Operation>
                    </FirstValue>
                    <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                        <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                            <FirstValue Type="Number">3.14159</FirstValue>
                            <SecondValue Type="Operation">
                                <Operation Operator="Multiply">
                                    <FirstValue Type="EventData">Ring:3:InnerRad</FirstValue>
                                    <SecondValue Type="EventData">Ring:3:InnerRad</SecondValue>
                                </Operation>
                            </SecondValue>
                        </Operation>
                    </SecondValue>
                </Operation>
            </SecondValue>
        </Operation>
        <Description>Low Visibility C Ring</Description>
    </Criteria>

 

[Shnyrik]

With this very small sample, it is obvious that density allows a separation between visible and invisible rings

Well, I came to the conclusion that it is not that simple. And though there is a margin after that you can be sure that the ring would be visible, for the ring below that margin you can only say that it may be invisible or might (with slightly less probability) be still visible

You may try to use screenshots (and the rest of the data, of course) from my table to fulfill your database, though my data is kind of limited by the fact that I count only rings with shepherd moons.

I should also point to one particular system: Dryoea Flyoo AA-A h553. The rings there are very large and dense, but still invisible or I didn't manage to see them. Well, you'd better look yourself, for the system is rather unusual. So, after all cmdr. Gromsch might have been right, that not only ring's density, but also the luminosity of the main star of the system somehow affects whether the ring would be shown as visible or not. Though for now I have no idea how can we measure the impact of this factor.

 

[Romeo India Charlie]

Thank you, @Vithigar that will help.

@Shnyrik I agree that it might not be that simple. I went through the threads and there were so many confounding variables that I wanted to reboot and review it myself. I had to start somewhere so the first variable I want to tackle is density.

 

[Shnyrik]

I had to start somewhere so the first variable I want to tackle is density

And I guess you are right at large

I myself am now in the process of rethinking the methodology to be able to take into consideration the luminosity of the main star and distance from it to the ring.

And all that is not at all simple: yes we have such parameters as luminosity and absolute magnitude in EDSM, but how the heck do you measure the distance?

Semi major axis in ED is measured to the parent body, not to the main source of light in system. And as for distance to arrival -- I have no idea of what this number means exactly. I mean: does it change as bodies move along their orbits, does it change when you enter the system from different direction, how does it work for bodies with eccentric orbits and so on.

 

[MattG]

I had to start somewhere so the first variable I want to tackle is density.

I looked at this (briefly, before being distracted by shiny things) about a year ago.

Density is definitely a big factor, and a good starting place. I think at a minimum you need to also look at ring composition as well - most of what I focused on was Ice rings, the metallic ones seemed very different (which makes sense). I'd be slightly surprised if star/luminosity affected things though, or else you'd expect black holes to have more invisible rings - but I've not seen any evidence of that (feel free to disprove though!)

 

[Redfox]

Not having paid much attention to this aspect I wonder if ring-isn't-visible == ring-doesn't-make-you-drop-from-SC-when-passing-through?

Otherwise how does one distinguish between a ring a) actually not being there and b) it being there but just not visible to me due to a lack of contrast (from settings/monitor/glasses/etc.)?

 

[Vithigar]

Not having paid much attention to this aspect I wonder if ring-isn't-visible == ring-doesn't-make-you-drop-from-SC-when-passing-through?

Otherwise how does one distinguish between a ring a) actually not being there and b) it being there but just not visible to me due to a lack of contrast (from settings/monitor/glasses/etc.)?

I can confirm that it is possible to hit and drop into rings that don't visibly render. There are no big rocks once you're there, but you still get the in-a-ring particles around you.

 

[iain666]

Ring composition has to be a factor, surely. To get the same density for the ring you need about 8 times the volume of material to be present in the ring for water compared to iron and I would imagine that it's the percentage of the ring's volume has something in it that is the determining factor on whether it is visible.

 

[Romeo India Charlie]

Regarding ring composition, my starting point is that it is a factor that strongly correlates with mass. My next step is to go through the data other CMDRs have collected, add it to mine, and try to train a simple classification model and get variable importance. My concern is that there are rings that were reported as invisible that were later reported as visible if I recall correctly.

 

[SpaceTrash67]

I took the 'Top 10' largest / widest rings that Elite Observatory recorded - plus my documented case of 'invisible / interactive' (Groel RJ-I d9-0_9 B Ring) - and put them in a spreadsheet....I work "right to left" (so the results are leftmost tab) - I also included the ring type / info from ED Discovery - and noticed some small rounding errors when compared with In-game values....Also interesting that several of the rings were around stars - so the mass is then reported in ED Discovery as 'moon masses' (in-game still shown in Mtons):

Observatory_Wide-Rings.xlsx

 

[Zieman]

I took the 'Top 10' largest / widest rings that Elite Observatory recorded - plus my documented case of 'invisible / interactive' (Groel RJ-I d9-0_9 B Ring) - and put them in a spreadsheet....I work "right to left" (so the results are leftmost tab) - I also included the ring type / info from ED Discovery - and noticed some small rounding errors when compared with In-game values....Also interesting that several of the rings were around stars - so the mass is then reported in ED Discovery as 'moon masses' (in-game still shown in Mtons):

Observatory_Wide-Rings.xlsx

View attachment 165394

Alnitak 8 ... ah, that brings up distant memories:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzIXlYlbu_c

 

[Shnyrik]

I can confirm that it is possible to hit and drop into rings that don't visibly render

Oh, yes. I've done that multiple times. But, I should add, that more often you just fly through them without being pulled out of SC. My guess it that it has something to do with ring's internal structure. I mean, there are rings, that are rendered as sets of thin concentric rings and this is not some visual feature, you can actually fly through those gaps in SC without being pulled out. I guess, invisible rings can also have structure and if you managed to fly through such ring one time -- that doesn't mean that next time you won't crash into something

https://imgur.com/EMQt3eR

 

[LCU No Fool Like One]

I've been looking at ring visibility because it impacts on sheperd moon detection. I have had some moons detected between the B and C ring of stars but the C ring is completely invisible and unscannable so it looks like the code got it wrong. I've been using a density filter to filter out rings that are below a certain density but I think I need a study to work out if it is a simple threshold or not. Iv'e extracted all rings between my upper and lower thresholds and will be visiting them to try and work out the limit.

But reading up it sounds like it wont be that simple

 

[LCU No Fool Like One]

Well this is vexing. 0.001267184416 Mt/km2 and yet it looks rather dense. Its a single ring of Metal Rich Bodies. On dropping into the rings it become apparent that the reason that they are so visible is that the mist is really heavy

 

[Vithigar]

Disregard, was thinking of a different thread.