Earning Potential for Different Professions and it's Effects

[DrugaRunda]

From playing and reading here, estimated max potential for people who have mastered their various professions is the following:

• Exploring ~ 100,000 Cr/Hr
  • sustainable and no danger whatsoever
• Bounty Hunting ~ 300,000 Cr/Hr
  • not sure if sustainable as it depends on availability of Anacondas to kill, perhaps a lower long term average (200-250k?)
• Mining ~ 500,000 Cr/Hr (likely with using the exploit with logging on and off after funding that precious rock yielding 40%+ Gold or higher value metal)
  • likely lower when everything is taken into account, ie flying to the ring, finding the rock, going back and selling to do it all over again (300-400k?)
• Trading ~ 1,000,000 Cr/Hr
  • sustainable with large ships

Some of you may disagree on the estimate values, still my assumption is that this ratio is ballpark correct 1:2:4:10, or roughly you can make 10x credits for the same amount of time Trading as Exploring, 5x as Bounty Hunting, and 2.5x as Mining.

There are two main consequences of the above:

• Game involving high cost ships is trade locked, other activities are too costly (insurance, repair, fuel), if you want to avoid trading and keep on using high cost ships
• Exploring and Bounty Hunting cannot support high cost equipment, however given the current setup you only need 15-20M to be as well equipped as you will ever need to be for those two.

In my view, it is a bit unfortunate that hauling cargo from A to B with no risk gives the highest monetary reward in the game, ideally the game would reward risk taking to "award" you with credits assuming the activity is successfully completed, so that there is a mechanism to encourage taking risks and getting rewards which is the highest level of play, once you go through the initial learning curve. Trading should be there as an activity to support you once you fail, so you can do some grinding to get back on your feet.

Not sure if FD is thinking in this direction, and how to go about it exactly as it is much easier to write this than design a successful system which rewards risk taking as the highest reward activity in game while not breaking the rest of it. The universe created definitely has the baseline in order to support such a concept, which is encouraging.

Anyone here has a view on how to encourage high risk = high reward type of gameplay in this universe? It should not be obligatory, just another option to the existing professions or a different activity altogether, even though I would prefer that ship flying skills are the main driver for high risk/high reward type of behaviour.

It could be as simple as a competition - ie for exploration - The Empire, Federation and Alliance awarding 100M credits for whoever claims X (could be Sagittarius A ) in their name and comes back to collect the prize, or something along those lines. If you get killed along the way back, the whole action is reset. Those would have to be "handmade" , ie planned by the dev team.

An automated/scripted option could be to have targets, series of events enabling taking over systems for a small faction where a % of the haul goes to the players who enabled the takeover, but where a player could face whole fleets of enemy ships, some really challenging scenarios which would only affect him as he is trying to complete the objective; another could be having a rare event of finding precious gems for mining, which is akin to an in-game lottery win - ie really rare (maybe once a month for some lucky miner mining Bauxite ).

The game engine is most likely not ready (will it ever be? ) to have a proper war front where the winners are richly rewarded after completing some objectives, but I am sure that there could be other types of activities that could be designed within this gameworld which would mix it up a bit and reward skilful behaviour by individuals, perhaps even groups for taking certain kinds of risks, while at the same time not interfering with the rest of the game population who enjoy taking it easy while exploring, mining, trading or taking down AI ships one at a time.

 

[TUXER]

if your objective is to make as much money per hour as possible the game will beat you down and you will end up rage quiting.

 

[Mikey2305]

Making money is not my objective in the game. Fulfilment and satisfaction is what i get. If my prized ship takes a week or a month or more i aint too fussed

 

[DrugaRunda]

Sure, we are all free to play as we like, but the economy cannot be ignored, also adding additional playstyles should be beneficial to everyone.

Another thought, that as one of the rewards for that competition win, could also be the ability to name a station which will be built in that space. That would be a nice personal touch to up the stakes not only in "credits" but also non-monetary terms.

 

[PrometheusDarko]

It's already been voiced that if you are playing for max ISK/hr then you likely won't have fun. That's not saying you're playing the game wrong, it's just a fact. That said, you're right that a bit more balance would be nice, if we are to assume that they should be within 75% of each other, give or take, and if we are to assume that high risk == high reward, then some tweaking or additional mechanics could be nice, I have a few ideas to throw out there, for giggles.

Exploration: Honestly, my main point of attack here isn't the raw CR/hr, but rather, the secondary monetary options while exploring. So trying to stay as close as possible to current mechanics (i.e. not utilizing future options such as planetary landing EVA, etc..) I'd suggest the addition of specially crafted USS-liked for systems that have had fewer than 100 visits. For now let's call them "Anomalous Readings" or ARs for short. (was going to call them Anomalous Signatures, but you can't really plural that initialization without hitting the swear filter )

These ARs could hold a plethora of additional money making opportunities, both increasing your fun and CR/hr. Some might force you to return home sooner, such as rare goods unobtainable outside ARs (Spacefaring species, Artifacts, Anomalous metals, insert good idea here), rival NPC explorers, etc. etc. etc.. Again, keep in mind, this is only available to the first hundred or so commanders (maybe less, not sure of balancing, tbh, as I would need more insider data for an accurate number) to visit the system. This would increase the rate of outward expansion for explorers, increase the fun and randomness, while still utilizing the current RNG methodology, and have potential to increase CR/hr.

Bounty Hunting: This doesn't need as much of a tweak imho mechanics-wise. Depending on proximity to Fed/Alliance/Empire systems, you can rack up a lot of bounties fast using a KWS in an Anarchy system. It's turning in all the bounties before you pop at all three factions that's the trick. As well, as has been stated diversity is low at the moment. That will be solved with a larger variety of ships, and player bounties get big fast, and you are even told their last whereabouts, although thanks to the instanced servers, it's a bit of a crap shoot finding the commander, and this is where my point of attack is for BHs.Obviously, keeping it balanced is key, so I suggest adding a contact to the Contacts screen: The Information Broker.

The information broker will give you current whereabouts info for one of the top 5 bounties of your local system, as well as a very basic idea of what they are flying. Simply, the ship. That's all. Then, you can run to that system, once there, the Broker should remember you asked about that person, so when you go to contacts, on top of the 5 for that system, he will give you the option for an update on the Player bounty you selected. Again, the IB will give you current location and ship. Now here's the tricky part, players who request info on the player from the IB should now have a similar network priority as friends/wings. If you're paying for info, you're also paying for network priority.Now, one final balance point: Every time you buy info on a player bounty, that player gets a notification (a la FASD failure, with a big red triangle and text before minimizing) that someone is looking for them. Final balance point is that info brokers fees are not paid up front, but rather, each time you access them, you are promising the IB a portion of the bounty upon collection, up to a percentage (let's say 15%). This prevents players from dumping thousands of Credits into a mark the just logs off when they get an alert, never to be found, and still rewards player bounty hunting.

Mining: Mining practically pulls a Fry at you and says "Shut up and take these credits" but yes, it's still not as profitable as late game mining. To add some variety, I make two simple recommendations. 1: As you stay in a belt, a small, invisible timer ticks off. Safer systems tick slower, or for smaller amounts, while Anarchy systems will tick faster, or in higher amounts. When you leave the system, there's a chance, determined by an RNG modified by the ticks, that a powerful pirate will jump out after you and interdict you for all your booty. And the rocks. This adds risk, promotes having an escort, and just gets your blood flowing.As well, to balance this increase in risk I'm proposing, again, more rare goods. Gemstones, Diamond deposits, etc. which have a small chance of being chipped off in lieu of your Palladium/Platinum/Gold (because let's face it, no one is mining for Bertrandite).

These will, of course, sell much higher, the farther you get from the system in which they are mined, promoting the occasional long distance trip. This also promotes storing valuables in your cargo hold, and having larger ships for mining for better defense as well as longer mining sessions before you run off 160+ LY to sell your shinies. This, in turn, makes you a sexier and sexier target for player and NPC pirates.

Thoughts, questions, concerns, emotional outbursts? Direct them elsewhere please. XD Seriously though, I do love where the game is at, but as in literally any game, there is room for improvements. I don't know how the devs will flesh out the various professions, but I can't wait to see how they do it.​

 

[DrugaRunda]

It's already been voiced that if you are playing for max ISK/hr then you likely won't have fun. That's not saying you're playing the game wrong, it's just a fact. That said, you're right that a bit more balance would be nice, if we are to assume that they should be within 75% of each other, give or take, and if we are to assume that high risk == high reward, then some tweaking or additional mechanics could be nice, I have a few ideas to throw out there, for giggles.

Exploration: Honestly, my main point of attack here isn't the raw CR/hr, but rather, the secondary monetary options while exploring. So trying to stay as close as possible to current mechanics (i.e. not utilizing future options such as planetary landing EVA, etc..) I'd suggest the addition of specially crafted USS-liked for systems that have had fewer than 100 visits. For now let's call them "Anomalous Readings" or ARs for short. (was going to call them Anomalous Signatures, but you can't really plural that initialization without hitting the swear filter )These ARs could hold a plethora of additional money making opportunities, both increasing your fun and CR/hr. Some might force you to return home sooner, such as rare goods unobtainable outside ARs (Spacefaring species, Artifacts, Anomalous metals, insert good idea here), rival NPC explorers, etc. etc. etc.. Again, keep in mind, this is only available to the first hundred or so commanders (maybe less, not sure of balancing, tbh, as I would need more insider data for an accurate number) to visit the system. This would increase the rate of outward expansion for explorers, increase the fun and randomness, while still utilizing the current RNG methodology, and have potential to increase CR/hr.

Bounty Hunting: This doesn't need as much of a tweak imho mechanics-wise. Depending on proximity to Fed/Alliance/Empire systems, you can rack up a lot of bounties fast using a KWS in an Anarchy system. It's turning in all the bounties before you pop at all three factions that's the trick. As well, as has been stated diversity is low at the moment. That will be solved with a larger variety of ships, and player bounties get big fast, and you are even told their last whereabouts, although thanks to the instanced servers, it's a bit of a crap shoot finding the commander, and this is where my point of attack is for BHs.Obviously, keeping it balanced is key, so I suggest adding a contact to the Contacts screen: The Information Broker. The information broker will give you current whereabouts info for one of the top 5 bounties of your local system, as well as a very basic idea of what they are flying. Simply, the ship. That's all. Then, you can run to that system, once there, the Broker should remember you asked about that person, so when you go to contacts, on top of the 5 for that system, he will give you the option for an update on the Player bounty you selected. Again, the IB will give you current location and ship. Now here's the tricky part, players who request info on the player from the IB should now have a similar network priority as friends/wings. If you're paying for info, you're also paying for network priority.Now, one final balance point: Every time you buy info on a player bounty, that player gets a notification (a la FASD failure, with a big red triangle and text before minimizing) that someone is looking for them. Final balance point is that info brokers fees are not paid up front, but rather, each time you access them, you are promising the IB a portion of the bounty upon collection, up to a percentage (let's say 15%). This prevents players from dumping thousands of Credits into a mark the just logs off when they get an alert, never to be found, and still rewards player bounty hunting.

Mining: Mining practically pulls a Fry at you and says "Shut up and take these credits" but yes, it's still not as profitable as late game mining. To add some variety, I make two simple recommendations. 1: As you stay in a belt, a small, invisible timer ticks off. Safer systems tick slower, or for smaller amounts, while Anarchy systems will tick faster, or in higher amounts. When you leave the system, there's a chance, determined by an RNG modified by the ticks, that a powerful pirate will jump out after you and interdict you for all your booty. And the rocks. This adds risk, promotes having an escort, and just gets your blood flowing.As well, to balance this increase in risk I'm proposing, again, more rare goods. Gemstones, Diamond deposits, etc. which have a small chance of being chipped off in lieu of your Palladium/Platinum/Gold (because let's face it, no one is mining for Bertrandite). These will, of course, sell much higher, the farther you get from the system in which they are mined, promoting the occasional long distance trip. This also promotes storing valuables in your cargo hold, and having larger ships for mining for better defense as well as longer mining sessions before you run off 160+ LY to sell your shinies. This, in turn, makes you a sexier and sexier target for player and NPC pirates.Thoughts, questions, concerns, emotional outbursts? Direct them elsewhere please. XD Seriously though, I do love where the game is at, but as in literally any game, there is room for improvements. I don't know how the devs will flesh out the various professions, but I can't wait to see how they do it.
​

Interesting ideas, yes - this is what I was after, to see what are other player takes on potential variety with the focus on the economic balance, not necessarily to throw it off, but to mix it up a bit.

I like the exploration idea the best, as it looks easily implementable, just added to the way the worlds are created, making for interesting choices - ie to harvest and go back with the items or continue forward. Mining for "rares" would be a nice fit to the existing setup as well.

 

[SamuelFaith]

Fairly interesting read and rather accurate, bar mining. The relogging issue was resolved with a recent patch.

• Mining ~ 500,000 Cr/Hr (likely with using the exploit with logging on and off after funding that precious rock yielding 40%+ Gold or higher value metal)
  • likely lower when everything is taken into account, ie flying to the ring, finding the rock, going back and selling to do it all over again (300-400k?)

 

[Jonney Napalm]

But surely this is all based on finding the right trade routes, mining spots, bounty hunting grounds or being in the right part of the universe for exploring?
You also have to have the right ship/load out for all this to be true?
Dunno about anybody else, but I find most of these just people spouting numbers to impress.
I have not made anything like this on average, but maybe I'm not just obsessed with credits?

 

[Unpleasant]

It's already been voiced that if you are playing for max ISK/hr then you likely won't have fun. That's not saying you're playing the game wrong, it's just a fact. That said, you're right that a bit more balance would be nice, if we are to assume that they should be within 75% of each other, give or take, and if we are to assume that high risk == high reward, then some tweaking or additional mechanics could be nice, I have a few ideas to throw out there, for giggles.Exploration: Honestly, my main point of attack here isn't the raw CR/hr, but rather, the secondary monetary options while exploring. So trying to stay as close as possible to current mechanics (i.e. not utilizing future options such as planetary landing EVA, etc..) I'd suggest the addition of specially crafted USS-liked for systems that have had fewer than 100 visits. For now let's call them "Anomalous Readings" or ARs for short. (was going to call them Anomalous Signatures, but you can't really plural that initialization without hitting the swear filter )These ARs could hold a plethora of additional money making opportunities, both increasing your fun and CR/hr. Some might force you to return home sooner, such as rare goods unobtainable outside ARs (Spacefaring species, Artifacts, Anomalous metals, insert good idea here), rival NPC explorers, etc. etc. etc.. Again, keep in mind, this is only available to the first hundred or so commanders (maybe less, not sure of balancing, tbh, as I would need more insider data for an accurate number) to visit the system. This would increase the rate of outward expansion for explorers, increase the fun and randomness, while still utilizing the current RNG methodology, and have potential to increase CR/hr.Bounty Hunting: This doesn't need as much of a tweak imho mechanics-wise. Depending on proximity to Fed/Alliance/Empire systems, you can rack up a lot of bounties fast using a KWS in an Anarchy system. It's turning in all the bounties before you pop at all three factions that's the trick. As well, as has been stated diversity is low at the moment. That will be solved with a larger variety of ships, and player bounties get big fast, and you are even told their last whereabouts, although thanks to the instanced servers, it's a bit of a crap shoot finding the commander, and this is where my point of attack is for BHs.Obviously, keeping it balanced is key, so I suggest adding a contact to the Contacts screen: The Information Broker. The information broker will give you current whereabouts info for one of the top 5 bounties of your local system, as well as a very basic idea of what they are flying. Simply, the ship. That's all. Then, you can run to that system, once there, the Broker should remember you asked about that person, so when you go to contacts, on top of the 5 for that system, he will give you the option for an update on the Player bounty you selected. Again, the IB will give you current location and ship. Now here's the tricky part, players who request info on the player from the IB should now have a similar network priority as friends/wings. If you're paying for info, you're also paying for network priority.Now, one final balance point: Every time you buy info on a player bounty, that player gets a notification (a la FASD failure, with a big red triangle and text before minimizing) that someone is looking for them. Final balance point is that info brokers fees are not paid up front, but rather, each time you access them, you are promising the IB a portion of the bounty upon collection, up to a percentage (let's say 15%). This prevents players from dumping thousands of Credits into a mark the just logs off when they get an alert, never to be found, and still rewards player bounty hunting.Mining: Mining practically pulls a Fry at you and says "Shut up and take these credits" but yes, it's still not as profitable as late game mining. To add some variety, I make two simple recommendations. 1: As you stay in a belt, a small, invisible timer ticks off. Safer systems tick slower, or for smaller amounts, while Anarchy systems will tick faster, or in higher amounts. When you leave the system, there's a chance, determined by an RNG modified by the ticks, that a powerful pirate will jump out after you and interdict you for all your booty. And the rocks. This adds risk, promotes having an escort, and just gets your blood flowing.As well, to balance this increase in risk I'm proposing, again, more rare goods. Gemstones, Diamond deposits, etc. which have a small chance of being chipped off in lieu of your Palladium/Platinum/Gold (because let's face it, no one is mining for Bertrandite). These will, of course, sell much higher, the farther you get from the system in which they are mined, promoting the occasional long distance trip. This also promotes storing valuables in your cargo hold, and having larger ships for mining for better defense as well as longer mining sessions before you run off 160+ LY to sell your shinies. This, in turn, makes you a sexier and sexier target for player and NPC pirates.Thoughts, questions, concerns, emotional outbursts? Direct them elsewhere please. XD Seriously though, I do love where the game is at, but as in literally any game, there is room for improvements. I don't know how the devs will flesh out the various professions, but I can't wait to see how they do it.​

That wall of text made my dyslexic eyeballs bleed.

 

[Hooplah]

One idea is to play it safe with Trading making lots of credits then later on buy a Sidewinder and go for day one basics with many deaths learning the combat skills, moving up to the Eagle and Viper, and finally combining them all together. One would then have the advantage of knowing a lot about the game when it is time for combat as well as moving back and forth between the ships to keep the game interesting. That's my plan and it's working.

 

[DrugaRunda]

Fairly interesting read and rather accurate, bar mining. The relogging issue was resolved with a recent patch.


[/LIST]
[/LIST]

Thanks - I suppose that mining max is therefore drastically reduced? Not sure how much, but one has to load all sorts of metal as they mine, not just the highest value as 2k metals are most frequent even in pristine metal rings.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

But surely this is all based on finding the right trade routes, mining spots, bounty hunting grounds or being in the right part of the universe for exploring?
You also have to have the right ship/load out for all this to be true?
Dunno about anybody else, but I find most of these just people spouting numbers to impress.
I have not made anything like this on average, but maybe I'm not just obsessed with credits?

I do not think a "normal" player will be doing it, those are close to max potential and some out there are doing it, but I am certainly not, except when exploring - this is not that hard to hit with mid range equipment (2-3M worth). I did not fall in love with mining, while trading and hunting is OK. Trading as it is super easy to grind and hunting is the actual fun part, haven't tried pirating, looks most fun but also most likely a barely "break even" type of role, noone is doing it for credits for sure.

 

[DrugaRunda]

One idea is to play it safe with Trading making lots of credits then later on buy a Sidewinder and go for day one basics with many deaths learning the combat skills, moving up to the Eagle and Viper, and finally combining them all together. One would then have the advantage of knowing a lot about the game when it is time for combat as well as moving back and forth between the ships to keep the game interesting. That's my plan and it's working.

I think this is how most are playing right now, but again, it would be nice of you could eventually support higher level items with activities other than just trading.

 

[Major Plonker]

I do think trading should have higher earnings for higher risks, trading in anarchy systems for example. Overall I'm not that bothered though TBH, I guess I'm not that interested in maxing my cr/hr, as such I do very little trading and instead stick to the things I enjoy, bounty hunting with a little piracy and smuggling here and there.

 

[EUBanana]

In the older games, the trade routes to dangerous systems were worth more. Anarchies had more extreme price differentials than democracies.

They should make the anarchic worlds really something special to visit, so you don't just wander into Riedquat as if it was any other star system, but make sure the shields and the lasers are up to snuff. At the same time, a trek to Riedquat should offer more profits.

 

[Laeden]

Try the bulletin board for richer bounties in the form of missions. Better credits to be had than picking them up 2-4k at a time. There's actually a bit of risk involved with trading and mining. You have to worry about pirates/players finding you and interdicting/attacking you. You might not always be able to get away or whoever's attacking may have extremely superior firepower causing you to lose everything you've been working for. Especially trading. These people invest almost everything into their cargo sometimes. One bad jump into a vipers nest can spell disaster for your entire career. Taking everything into consideration, I'd say it's actually pretty well balanced. A player that's exceptional at combat can earn just as many credits as someone who is not and focuses on trading or mining instead. Exploration on the other hand, I totally agree. Extremely minimal risk, therefore the reward shouldn't be astronomical (oh, puns). It takes a certain type of person to choose exploration as a profession. To them the joy of discovery is part of the reward. They will see things in the game that others never will.

 

[DrugaRunda]

In the older games, the trade routes to dangerous systems were worth more. Anarchies had more extreme price differentials than democracies.

They should make the anarchic worlds really something special to visit, so you don't just wander into Riedquat as if it was any other star system, but make sure the shields and the lasers are up to snuff. At the same time, a trek to Riedquat should offer more profits.

It is a bit surprising that they are not going with it already, but it may be down to making the game more safe for new players to start with.

 

[ChubbyBunneh]

There is more risk involved in flying a lightly/un-armed, lightly/un-shielded, slow cargo pinata loaded with millions in non-insurable cargo than a heavily armed, impenetrably shielded, armored, fast, maneuverable, fully insured warship that can flee from a fight if things go pear shaped.

Remove shield cell banks from the game and then talk high risk combat. Because right now you've got it all backwards.

Since trading is higher risk than combat and exploration, requires the highest initial and continued investment, and is the most boring path it should earn the most.

In the Type 9 I'm one interdiction away from being ruined. In the Python I feared nothing.

 

[DrugaRunda]

Well the game as a whole is too safe right now. It is very hard to die (yes you get some here who are complaining about dying ).

Even if you are risking everything in that Lakon 9, what are the chances that you will actually die? In principle very low. The fact that it is pretty much impossible to die in a fully equipped fighting ship, is another issue, but at least in theory that line of work should be risky.

Right now, there is really no risk at all, highest one being hitting the station at full speed or getting rammed by someone while exiting/entering. Hope they will fix it in the New Year, either with another instance which has "proper" balance between weapons and shields, or through some rule tweaking in current "open" world.

 

[Mikey2305]

There is some risk in exploration You are travelling slower as you survey. And the racket your equipment is making is tending to attract pirates. I dont carry weapons and i have to run fairly frequently. No real prob in my cobra but there is a risk and the possibility of losing a lot of data i have worked hard for...

 

[Tuzmaal]

Since trading is higher risk than combat and exploration, requires the highest initial and continued investment, and is the most boring path it should earn the most.

In the Type 9 I'm one interdiction away from being ruined. In the Python I feared nothing.

Well, I`ve been hauling stuff back and forth for the last 2 days since I found an awsum trade route I wanted to milk as long as possible, got interdicted several times and never was in any risk of losing my ship thanks to the safety net feature that gives you insta-FSD as long as you submit to the interdiction... were is the risk in this ? Submit, boost twice, deploy chaf, laugh at pirat in chat and FSD away while he is still stuck in his cooldown. The risk getting rammed by an AI near station is higher tbh.