General / Off-Topic Electric cars: Are we doing it right?

Kind of random but this is as good a place as any to vent....

I've been helping somebody repair a door-handle on their Tesla S.

It's a £70k car so it's safe to assume the owner is quite well-off but, even so, he didn't fancy the prospect of paying the £4,000 that Tesla allegedly wanted to do the work.

Thing is, he was terrified of using the car with the faulty door-handle because, apparently, if the car decides to report a fault to Tesla and then, when you take the car for a service, it turns out the fault has already been repaired Tesla can do some pretty nasty things such as revoke your warranty and block you from using their fast-charge locations.

This seemed pretty vindictive, to me, but it also got me thinking about the whole thing.

I guess I can see why Tesla is being so protective of their products.
There's a lot of new technology involved and the results of a bodged repair could have a significant impact on the company's reputation and future viability.
This is also magnified by the fact that a lot of the new technology is seriously clever too.
When you're talking about cars that can self-park and self-drive, you definitely don't want some monkey repairing the car with lumps of broken washing machine.

But that's where I wonder if we're going about it all wrong.

I'm under the impression that the primary reason to build an electric car is because it's less damaging to the environment and because it's the first step in reducing our reliance on oil.

That being the case, I'm not sure it's really wise to load up these cars with complex technology which renders them expensive to maintain, compels people to use authorised dealers and makes it more likely that the cost of repairing non-essential systems can cause a car to be written-off completely.

For a car like a Tesla to be superficially viable, it needs to be cheaper to run than an equivalent petrol/diesel car.
It's no good driving a Tesla and telling yourself it's only costing you a penny a mile (or whatever it is) if it's going to cost you £2000 to get the infotainment screen fixed by a dealer [/i]and[/i] being forced to have it repaired - by that dealer - or risk having your warranty voided.

Conversely, you'll get people who choose to run a car like a Tesla for (questionable) environmental reasons regardless of cost.
That's fine but if Teslas are getting written-off and replaced due to the cost of repairing minor damage then it isn't really good for the environment either.


Seems, to me, that companies building electric cars should be treating them like regular cars; building base-models with very little extraneous technology which can be repaired and maintained by any competent mechanic and then adding all the fancy technology to the prestige models.
 
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Electric cars are not the future hydrogen fuel cells are far far better. Electric cars are simply a gimmick for the fairly well off and upwards to say “look at me I’m special and saving the planet for all you lesser beings”
 
A Tesla is a luxury/sports car, not an economy car.

Electric cars are not the future hydrogen fuel cells are far far better. Electric cars are simply a gimmick for the fairly well off and upwards to say “look at me I’m special and saving the planet for all you lesser beings”

Well...

[video=youtube;ARzujfRiQ3c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARzujfRiQ3c[/video]
 
If the warranty is valid, what's the problem? It costs $5000 to fix anything on a Tesla because of the way it is designed. If someone is willing to shell out $90,000 or more on any car then $5000 to fix a door handle should not bother them.
 
A Tesla is a luxury/sports car, not an economy car.

So is a BMW 850 or a Porsche 928.

I can buy a 20 year old example of either car for peanuts today and it'll still be a lovely car to drive which, aside from catastrophic failures, I wouldn't have any problem maintaining myself.

I just don't see there being any 20 year-old Teslas around to buy in 2037.
They'll all be sitting in scrap-yards, rusting away, because their door-handles broke or their infotainment systems died or their self-driving system threw a fit and the insurance company wrote them off because they'd be too expensive to repair.
 
I know an ASE master tech that works for Tesla now.
The cars are actually very simple by design.
Everything is modular.
Just a few bolts to remove a motor, for example.
 
So is a BMW 850 or a Porsche 928.

I can buy a 20 year old example of either car for peanuts today and it'll still be a lovely car to drive which, aside from catastrophic failures, I wouldn't have any problem maintaining myself.

I just don't see there being any 20 year-old Teslas around to buy in 2037.
They'll all be sitting in scrap-yards, rusting away, because their door-handles broke or their infotainment systems died or their self-driving system threw a fit and the insurance company wrote them off because they'd be too expensive to repair.


You're comparing apples and oranges.
The same can be said of modern petrol cars vs older ones.

An old 928 or 850 running well? Lovely to drive?
I think you're being overly optimistic, and I hope you're also a machinist!
Lots of those are in the scrap heap and you don't see many old ones around.

I grew up working on air-cooled VWs and 2 strokes, so simple is a value in high regard to me.
I still think you're off base.
A Tesla was never designed with what you're talking about in mind.
 
The whole Idea behind electric vehicles being "environmentally friendly" is absolute moot anyway; given that the energy used to charge it was most likely made by a fossils fuel source (coal or natural gas power plant), this is akin to sweeping our mess under the rug.

Until we use nuclear power and renewable's to power our wall chargers, electric cars can never be praised for their environmentalism.

That's not to point out my distaste for them; I really do like what Tesla is doing by making electric cars actually appealing again and you bring up some good points about how if electric vehicles are to ever become the economies of scale that Tesla hopes it to be; it simply needs to be more flexible and cheaper to maintain than existing fossil fuel based vehicles. Battery technology also needs to be more energy dense and cheaper per energy unit volume. Currently petrol is still the best and densest form of portable power we have. Batteries are still relatively atrocious; given that it takes less than a few minutes to "refuel" a tank of Petrol.
 
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Ftr, I don't think any of the ecological promises are panning out either.

The whole Idea behind electric vehicles being "Environmentally Friendly" is absolute moot anyway; given that the energy used to charge it was most likely made by a fossils fuel source (Coal or Natural Gas power plant), This is akin to sweeping our mess under the rug.

Until we use Nuclear power and Renewable's to power our wall chargers, electric cars can never be praised for their environmentalism.

That's not to point out my distaste for them; I really do like what Tesla is doing by making Electric cars actually appealing again, but you bring up some good points about how if Electric Vehicles are to ever become the economies of scale that Tesla hopes it to be; it simply needs to be more flexible and cheaper to maintain than existing fossil fuel based vehicles. Battery technology also needs to be more energy dense and cheaper per energy unit volume. Currently petrol is still the best and densest form of portable power we have. Batteries are still relatively atrocious; given that it takes less than a few minutes to "refuel" a tank of Petrol.


Yes to all of this except that it was always intended to be a niche product.
 
I'm under the impression that the primary reason to build an electric car is because it's less damaging to the environment and because it's the first step in reducing our reliance on oil.

That's not Tesla's reason, nor the immediate motivation of any informed Tesla customer. These are novelty products, essentially mass produced concept vehicles, that give a glimpse of what's to come.

Infrastructure and batteries aren't quite there yet for mainstream electric to take off or live up to it's potential.
 
I know an ASE master tech that works for Tesla now.
The cars are actually very simple by design.
Everything is modular.
Just a few bolts to remove a motor, for example.

Must admit, from what I've seen on the internet, and my recent experience, it does seem like they're mechanically fairly straightforward to work on.

Which makes it more of a pity that they're forcing customers to pay main-dealer prices for no good reason and, as a result, they're creating a situation where insurance companies are more likely to write them off for relatively trivial reasons.
 
A Tesla was never designed with what you're talking about in mind.

Oh, I agree - but that's my point.

If you look at the majority of hybrids and leccy cars, they all seem to be conflating electric-drive with "technology" (probably to create customer appeal) but, in doing so, they're creating cars which don't address the issues that electric cars really should be tackling.
 
Must admit, from what I've seen on the internet, and my recent experience, it does seem like they're mechanically fairly straightforward to work on.

Which makes it more of a pity that they're forcing customers to pay main-dealer prices for no good reason and, as a result, they're creating a situation where insurance companies are more likely to write them off for relatively trivial reasons.



When I first talked to my friend when he was back on vacation, he was blown away.
He loves working there.

When I asked about the cars he just smiled and said troubleshooting is just like other electronics; test or swap components.
He said
"It's so easy and clean. Brah, there's not even oil to change..."

Lol...
 
Oh, I agree - but that's my point.

If you look at the majority of hybrids and leccy cars, they all seem to be conflating electric-drive with "technology" (probably to create customer appeal) but, in doing so, they're creating cars which don't address the issues that electric cars really should be tackling.



I agree with your underlying premise, but it's new tech and you need to use the early adopters to fund the technological advances to make it feasible for the masses.

I think Tesla owners are comfortable with that, by and large.
 
The whole Idea behind electric vehicles being "environmentally friendly" is absolute moot anyway; given that the energy used to charge it was most likely made by a fossils fuel source (coal or natural gas power plant), this is akin to sweeping our mess under the rug.

Until we use nuclear power and renewable's to power our wall chargers, electric cars can never be praised for their environmentalism.

That's not to point out my distaste for them; I really do like what Tesla is doing by making electric cars actually appealing again and you bring up some good points about how if electric vehicles are to ever become the economies of scale that Tesla hopes it to be; it simply needs to be more flexible and cheaper to maintain than existing fossil fuel based vehicles. Battery technology also needs to be more energy dense and cheaper per energy unit volume. Currently petrol is still the best and densest form of portable power we have. Batteries are still relatively atrocious; given that it takes less than a few minutes to "refuel" a tank of Petrol.

This may be the situation for Perth, Australia... but in Perth, Scotland it's another story. The country can run for days without burning coal. These coal-less days are only going to get more and more common as time goes by.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43879564

Fast charging is still a problem, but battery technology keeps getting better and better, and cheaper as economies of scale kick in.
 
This may be the situation for Perth, Australia... but in Perth, Scotland it's another story. The country can run for days without burning coal. These coal-less days are only going to get more and more common as time goes by.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43879564

Fast charging is still a problem, but battery technology keeps getting better and better, and cheaper as economies of scale kick in.



Let's not overlook this bit...


However, experts warned that power generated by coal was largely being replaced by gas, another fossil fuel, rather than renewable sources.

Andrew Crossland, of the Durham Energy Institute, said gas generated 40% of the UK's electricity and fuelled the vast majority of domestic heating: "As a country we consume nearly eight times more gas than coal.
 
They'll all be sitting in scrap-yards, rusting away ...
... or be on their way to mars :D

I think these things were never designed to be economical, or even practical. They were designed to break new grounds.

It was an utterly clever marketing move: How do you get an electric driven car out of the toy corner, and make it look like something desirable? Well, you make it beat conventional cars in as many respects as you can, very flashy looking, very luxurious, incredibly fast - and expansive. Something the wealthy will buy as a luxury article. People tend to want what they cannot have.

For sure, they could as well have made it something small, ecological, ugly, practical as hell and dirt cheap. And a guaranteed failure.
 
I'm convinced electric cars are a stopgap until fuel cell and H infrastructure is put into place.
The patents relating to the above tech should be in public domain, not squirreled away.

Battery tech is costly in terms of $ and environmentally to produce. Explosive when O2 hits it, and unless there's hydro generation, not great for environment for recharging.
Very expensive to replace the powerpak when need be.
Not a fan of battery tech in our northern climate.

Right now it's great if you own an elec car, there's free* charging stations everywhere I look, with great parking spots too.

*Costs subsidized by the taxpayer, ain't life grand?
 
Let's not overlook this bit...

However, experts warned that power generated by coal was largely being replaced by gas, another fossil fuel, rather than renewable sources.

Andrew Crossland, of the Durham Energy Institute, said gas generated 40% of the UK's electricity and fuelled the vast majority of domestic heating: "As a country we consume nearly eight times more gas than coal.

Yep it's still very high, but that will come down. An electric car will cause less pollution as it gets older. An ICE will still pollute the same, or more.
 
Tesla is a nice product, the Chinese will leapfrog the rest of the industry and will introduce easy-to-use and maintain EVs. A modern-day BMW is similar in a way that an average workshop can't really maintain it. So what you've described is not an EV thing, but a premium vehicle thing.

Fuel cell is a dead end road and the market is already deiciding that EVs are the way to go. Vast production capacity is being prepared, battery price fall fast while energy density is also increasing... also, EVs are relatively simple.
Anyway, why would you waste energy to produce hydrogen and then to convert it back to electricity? The best thing in EVs, that their capacity can be used to even out renewable energy supply fluctuations.
 
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