Last edited:
Astronomy / Space Elite 4 - New Starmap Available
- Thread starter OzFalcon
- Start date
if its goina be mmo there isnt such a thing as "too big".
looking at the crowded servers on some other games, id rather have a larger-than-nessesary game-universe to explore, instead the other way round.
If it's going to be an MMO, they can shove it - I don't do paying a monthly fee to continue playing something I've already paid for!
More likely, it won't appear at all.
Hehe! There isn't a computer in existence that could hold the amount of data you'd need to turn all of that into solar systems that you could fly around in.
The dots on the map are not stars, they're all galaxies :smilie:
The dots on the map are not stars, they're all galaxies :smilie:
I seriously doubt it.
This will be rough (and a bit rushed) so bear with me.
One thing I have noticed with being an astronomer is people just don't seem to have any real idea of the massive distances involved in space. They just know that it's "very big". So lets see if we can attempt to put this into some perspective.
There are about 2,500 stars visible to the naked eye at any one point at any one time on the Earth. So that's 2,500 star systems visible from Earth alone. That's potentially a lot of planets.
I know not all of them have planets, but if we take an average of 5 planets per star system, (some will have more, some less, some have moons) and multiply that by the amount of stars seen, we get 12,500 potential planets.
If we take that 2,500 stars and multiply that by the estimated size of the Milky Way Galaxy alone we get an estimate of 200 billion to 400 billion stars contained within the Milky Way.
Now we'll take the lowest number, just to be conservative, and multiply that by the 5 stars per system average we came up with earlier. 200 million stars x 5 planets = 1 trillion planets in the Milky Way.
In the star map from CFA there are 43,000 galaxies mapped (and that's only a small proportion of how many scientists believe there really are out there), so using the 1 trillion estimated stars in the Milky Way and multiplying that by the amount of galaxies on the map, and we get 43,000,000,000,000,000 potential planets (from my rough estimate.. and don't forget some planets will have moons, and some galaxies are considerably bigger than our own, so this is a very conservative estimate).
That's a lot of data before we even consider adding in the massive distances involved:
The diameter of the earth at the equator is 12,756.32 kilometers, or 7,926.41 miles, and our solar system is estimated to be 2 light years (125,000AU ) across. That's distance of 11,757,250,746,367.216 miles.
That star map is an area within 380 million light-years, so you could fit our solar system into it 190,000,000 times. That's distance of 2,233,877,641,809,771,040,000 miles.
You could make a 3D star map of this using dots for the galaxies, but to make each galaxy into individual solar systems that you can fly around in and interact with, plus having to model the space stations, textures for planets, civilisations, nebulae, asteroids, moons, space craft, cities on the planets (for each of the 8,600,000,000,000 solar systems in that map... again conservative estimate) You'd need way more than your average desktop PC, even with an algorythm.
Last edited:
A desktop could do it!
The original elite's galaxies used an algorythm that was 800 bytes in size. Estimating 1000 solar systems in each galaxy with 5 galaxies, the sums are:
8,600,000,000,000 solar systems in the big star map (elite used star systems not individual planets, which were procedurally generated using the algorythm)
divide by 5000 (roughly estimated solar systems in Elite)
= 1720000000 (bytes to store the info)
divide by 1,000,000 (let's get a megabyte figure)
= 1720 megs.
So, roughly 2 gigs.
These are obviously pretty fudged figures. It would probably be much, much less than that, as you can create 1000 x the galaxies with much less than 1000 x the info, using an algorythm.
Of course this assumes we are allowed to procedurally generate most of the universe, rather than it having to conform to specific known facts. But that's what Elite's always done anyway.
The original elite's galaxies used an algorythm that was 800 bytes in size. Estimating 1000 solar systems in each galaxy with 5 galaxies, the sums are:
8,600,000,000,000 solar systems in the big star map (elite used star systems not individual planets, which were procedurally generated using the algorythm)
divide by 5000 (roughly estimated solar systems in Elite)
= 1720000000 (bytes to store the info)
divide by 1,000,000 (let's get a megabyte figure)
= 1720 megs.
So, roughly 2 gigs.
These are obviously pretty fudged figures. It would probably be much, much less than that, as you can create 1000 x the galaxies with much less than 1000 x the info, using an algorythm.
Of course this assumes we are allowed to procedurally generate most of the universe, rather than it having to conform to specific known facts. But that's what Elite's always done anyway.
Last edited:
we get 43,000,000,000,000,000 potential planets (from my rough estimate.. and don't forget some planets will have moons, and some galaxies are considerably bigger than our own, so this is a very conservative estimate).QUOTE]
Like I said, just big enough!
Hehe
Well it depends on what sort of jump drive is used. If they decide to use light speed, instead of hyperspace, you won't need a long life-span for the pilot, but making friends on planets, or with other pilots would be a real problem.
The problem is, you can't go faster than light (according to Einstein), the energy needed to get there increases the faster you go, so it's like trying to chase a moving goalpost, but it's theoretically possible to get very close to it, about 99.9999% of light speed.
Time slows down for people moving at such high velocities, so it actually appears that you're moving a great distance much quicker than you should. It would be possible to get from Earth to the Andromeda Galaxy (M31) and back, in what to you would seem like a relatively short amount of time. However millions of years would have passed on Earth, so any friends or family you left behind would be long gone on your return.
Life for the pilot would be very lonely.
ANywas, enough of the space science stuff. I'm starting to sound like Patrick Moore
Well it depends on what sort of jump drive is used. If they decide to use light speed, instead of hyperspace, you won't need a long life-span for the pilot, but making friends on planets, or with other pilots would be a real problem.
The problem is, you can't go faster than light (according to Einstein), the energy needed to get there increases the faster you go, so it's like trying to chase a moving goalpost, but it's theoretically possible to get very close to it, about 99.9999% of light speed.
Time slows down for people moving at such high velocities, so it actually appears that you're moving a great distance much quicker than you should. It would be possible to get from Earth to the Andromeda Galaxy (M31) and back, in what to you would seem like a relatively short amount of time. However millions of years would have passed on Earth, so any friends or family you left behind would be long gone on your return.
Life for the pilot would be very lonely.
ANywas, enough of the space science stuff. I'm starting to sound like Patrick Moore
Last edited:
Crazy Folk
Oh c'mon people, don't forget any future ship would have a witchspace drive! Also, Patrick Moore is a legend
Talk about astronomy is welcome on this forum, it's funny though how talk always eventually ends up with challenging the lightspeed barrier.
Albert was and will continute to be right about this, there is just no way around this using a normal space/time model. We have to find "other" ways around this problem.
Think of it this way, in the 17th century, they tried to break speed records by adding more and more horses to postal carrages. They found that they could go no faster than a single rider on one horse. It never occured to them at the time to try the internal combustion engine, but some "crazy folk" reckoned they could go alot faster using the new fangled steam engines, but everyone laughed at them............................
Oh c'mon people, don't forget any future ship would have a witchspace drive!
Also, Patrick Moore is a legend Talk about astronomy is welcome on this forum, it's funny though how talk always eventually ends up with challenging the lightspeed barrier.
Albert was and will continute to be right about this, there is just no way around this using a normal space/time model. We have to find "other" ways around this problem.
Think of it this way, in the 17th century, they tried to break speed records by adding more and more horses to postal carrages. They found that they could go no faster than a single rider on one horse. It never occured to them at the time to try the internal combustion engine, but some "crazy folk" reckoned they could go alot faster using the new fangled steam engines, but everyone laughed at them............................
I only chose Patrick Moore because the forum wouldn't allow me to type Professor Brian ***. <--- See
Of course with Elite 4 being a computer game they're free to invent whatever technology they like for getting past light speed.
Of course with Elite 4 being a computer game they're free to invent whatever technology they like for getting past light speed.
Michael Brookes
Game Director
I only chose Patrick Moore because the forum wouldn't allow me to type Professor Brian ***. <--- See
Of course with Elite 4 being a computer game they're free to invent whatever technology they like for getting past light speed.
The censored word list is a bit aggressive, you should now be able to name Brian Cox in all his glory
Michael
The censored word list is a bit aggressive, you should now be able to name Brian Cox in all his glory
Michael
I am now 16 billion, billion, billion, billion, BILLION times happier than i was before (fascinated grin).
The censored word list is a bit aggressive, you should now be able to name Brian Cox in all his glory
Michael
Looks like I can use my own last name here, lol. I'm not Brian though - I'm a very naughty boy...
Puns aside, I'd love to see a new Elite that uses a procedurally generated universe, albeit with the locations of stars that we know of, being fixed.
Then again, didn't FE2 and FFE do this as well?
Indeed they did/do.
Just to add my own comment to this... I don't know if a green circle on a black screen described by words such as "This planet is famous for its mountain poets" would cut it in a AAA game release in 2011 (or whenever) ....
I expect people would want the solar systems and planets to have been designed - so that they look unique(ish), and someone has thought about the starbases, cities, economies of these places.
Then again, I expect if we were able to go out there into the Milky Way, we'd soon start finding planets and systems that were similar to others, if everything is governed by the same laws of physics, then there are going to be circumstances that determine what types of stars form, where, and how planets and moons form around them.... billions of years of evolution, culture and economy might be harder to model procedurally tho when it comes to populating these places?
In reality ... I remain hopeful that one day we will be able to travel great distances and explore these places. I'm not expecting it soon though (but it only takes one breakthrough!) but I would like within my lifetime to see telescopes that are capable of giving us pictures of the surfaces of completely alien planets... maybe we'll see cities with streetlights
Light speed isn't fast enough though - isn't the nearest system something like 4 LY away, so it would still be an 8 year round trip at light speed (assuming you don't have to accelerate or decelerate!).... I can't see anyone volunteering for that sort of an extended mission away from friends, family, humans..... we need to be able to travel to the local systems in weeks, not years. Even if there's anything there to see!
Final question is the one about aging slowly at light speed... so time slows down, but does it slow down as a concept of how we humans measure it, or does it ACTUALLY slow down? If a human lives for 80 years, no matter what speed they are travelling at, they're still done for at the end of human lifespan when your biology and cells finally give up the ghost... And thats not even gonna be enough to get out of the Milky Way at light speed... No, I don't get it.
I expect people would want the solar systems and planets to have been designed - so that they look unique(ish), and someone has thought about the starbases, cities, economies of these places.
Then again, I expect if we were able to go out there into the Milky Way, we'd soon start finding planets and systems that were similar to others, if everything is governed by the same laws of physics, then there are going to be circumstances that determine what types of stars form, where, and how planets and moons form around them.... billions of years of evolution, culture and economy might be harder to model procedurally tho when it comes to populating these places?
In reality ... I remain hopeful that one day we will be able to travel great distances and explore these places. I'm not expecting it soon though (but it only takes one breakthrough!) but I would like within my lifetime to see telescopes that are capable of giving us pictures of the surfaces of completely alien planets... maybe we'll see cities with streetlights
Light speed isn't fast enough though - isn't the nearest system something like 4 LY away, so it would still be an 8 year round trip at light speed (assuming you don't have to accelerate or decelerate!).... I can't see anyone volunteering for that sort of an extended mission away from friends, family, humans..... we need to be able to travel to the local systems in weeks, not years. Even if there's anything there to see!
Final question is the one about aging slowly at light speed... so time slows down, but does it slow down as a concept of how we humans measure it, or does it ACTUALLY slow down? If a human lives for 80 years, no matter what speed they are travelling at, they're still done for at the end of human lifespan when your biology and cells finally give up the ghost... And thats not even gonna be enough to get out of the Milky Way at light speed... No, I don't get it.
