Elite / Frontier Elite 4 - Realistic to real life physics and atmosphere?

Hello, I have been watching some videos of cameras fitted to a shuttle and different angles to observe the take off.

You got to see the vapour trails and all the other aspects of travelling through the atmosphere, and I wondered, would the frontier team do research into what actually happens, as the hardware is now capable of producing such graphics, or will it be like the earlier games and have a "fun" approach?

:)
 
I'm for realism.

It's not like it's going to make the game difficult to play - not with all the powerful engines, almighty autopilot and generous delta-v budgets from Frontier - just add some tutorial, combat tutorial and possibly some combat-assist module as training wheels for newbs.

In fact, I'd make some aspects more hardcore - for example increase fuel consumption of conventional drives somewhat, as you rarely had to refuel in FE2 and FFE.
On the other hand I would probably significantly increase vessel maximum masses as they were surprisingly light for their size in FE2/FFE (Asp, for example, literally towered over small buildings) - it'd also help with accommodating extra equipment - maybe do away with maximum mass and use containers of standardized volume, but mass dependant on what is inside - the cargo capacity would then be limited by internal capacity of the hull and mass would simply affect manoeuvrability in true Newtonian manner. This would also have positive side affect in form of allowing for interesting gameplay mechanics, like jettisoning all cargo to increase ship's acceleration to be able to escape from pursuers.

I loved how Frontier bridged hardcore simulation with accessible, free-form gameplay and want to see it repeated.
 
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I'm for realism.
In fact, I'd make some aspects more hardcore - for example increase fuel consumption of conventional drives somewhat, as you rarely had to refuel in FE2 and FFE.

With Elite IV being targeted at the console market I would be surprised if it was any more hardcore than Frontier, and not surprised at all if it was "dumbed down" quite significantly.

It can still be accessible to the average gamer and have very cool realistic atmospheric entry effects though.
 
Agreed: I enjoyed refuelling with fuel scoops (was that just Elite?) by the (with my skills anyway) risky procedure of skimming stars.
To me, space flight should be inherently risky in games to be realistic. Many more recent space sims fail on this, there is no sense of anticipation setting out on a flight, or relief when you limp home and just make it (or not!!) to a space station
 
With Elite IV being targeted at the console market I would be surprised if it was any more hardcore than Frontier
Notice that the increased fuel consumption can be compensated by increased ship capacity and decreased mass of upgrades.


and not surprised at all if it was "dumbed down" quite significantly.
I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd certainly be dismayed, not to mention I wouldn't buy the game then.

It's time the developers stopped conflating all games into homogeneous, lukewarm, imbecilic pulp - if the trend continues, by 2012 all new games will play themselves provided the lone single button remaining on the controller is being mashed. In the mean time I'll be a bitter, humourless sociopath only ever smiling when watching the news about some cataclysm/war/act of terror with possibly large death toll.
By 2024 lone button will disappear, and controllers will react to body heat - as long as they are being held, gnawed on or tucked between player's buttocks, the game, consisting mostly of soothing noises and flashing brilliant colours, will play itself. I'll hopefully be dead then, after I lose my grip and start firing an illegally purchased AK-74 at random people while laughing hysterically, critically fumble with homemade dirty bomb or accidentally stab myself with ricin filled syringe. ;)

There are things I find reassuring, though:

-the focus on graphics has to end, if only because there is no point in developing GFX past the photorealism threshold.
-the trends in human culture have so far been short-lived, maybe the general population won't succumb to total idiocy, after all.
-DB is the guy with keen interest in astronomy who made Frontier and FFE.

Maybe my sanity will survive the next decade intact, after all.

How was the first Frontier inaccessible anyway? It took about four key presses to launch and start flying, and the autopilot could do literally everything apart from (non-obligatory) combat. FFE was a bit harder, as the enemies were unforgiving, but that's what difficulty settings should be for.
 
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What I am focusing on is realism to real life space mechanics. As a ship would enter the atmosphere you would see vapur trails as a hot engine mixes with a cold atmosphere, the influence the atmoshere has on the ship and even the effect it would have on the water as you crashed into the sea (should you ever be in that situation :D)
 
What I am focusing on is realism to real life space mechanics. As a ship would enter the atmosphere you would see vapur trails as a hot engine mixes with a cold atmosphere
Technically speaking, you shouldn't see vapour trails after any of the craft available in Frontier. Frontier craft run on fusion drives fusing hydrogen into helium, so, unlike exhaust from conventional rocket/jet engines, exhaust from their drives wouldn't contain any water vapour that would be able to condense after cooling. Military drives are a different kind of animal, using engineered meta-material with trapped antimatter, but they still wouldn't emit anything condensible.

:D
 
Does it honestly matter? Vapour trails looks good, sun surfing is fun. These are just two examples of why they should be in game. Oh hold on a minute, it IS a game, and that's my point. Who cares if it's not how things should be?

For a start we don't know how things are going to develop so i'd go with similar gameplay to FFE but crank up the gfx to reflect modern technology. If i sunsurf then plumes of plasma to dance through would be nice and so on. Remember this isn't a simulator, it's a game, nothing more. If you make it too difficult it will turn players away.

I have to agree with two points also mentioned already. No dumbing it down too much. Microsoft made that mistake with Freelancer and lastly the refueling point, need more of that please lol
 
If you make it too difficult it will turn players away.

and if you make it too simple and add too much unneccesary eye candy then it will turn other players away.

All of the Elites so far have been complex and with a focus on realism. Why would they change that now, when there are already plenty of shallow, pretty space games around?
 
There is that fine balance of pure simulator and playability isn't there. A pure souless simulator with no personality, for me, has little attraction.

I like the idea of character interaction and a little bit of eye candy doesn't go astray as long as it doesn't end up like the purple cloudy soup that was Darkstar One. I kinda like the idea of some nice little graphical flares when you're sun skimming or when you're flying around in an atmosphere.

Like this sort of thing:
shuttle_sound_barrier.jpg


Image source: www.fast-air.co.uk
USAF-F-15E-91-0329-low-level-photo-.jpg
 
Does it honestly matter?
I was in my overpedantic nerd mode when posting, but yes.

While the flight in the deep space can be considered boring (but huge expanses of nothingness are crucial to make it feel like space and boredom itself is easily averted with time compression), when there are some sights, they rarely need beautification - in our own solar system are protuberances - elaborate arches of plasma rising many Earth diameters from it's surface, humongous gas giants with colourful storms larger than the Earth, one world covered in volcanoes just like the face of a teen can be covered with severe acne, frozen world with nitrogen geysers, a volcano rising 26km into Mars' atmosphere, a world that's basically a maze of ice canyons and so on.
More so, attempts at beautification usually fail horribly by trying too look more real than the real thing - colourful trails, specular on every surface, planar shockwaves and so on.

I'd even go as far as to make an optional "hardcore audiovisuals" flag that would disable external sounds and laser beams rendering in space. It's one boolean variable and a single additional check, so I don't see why it wouldn't be made.

Vapour trails looks good, sun surfing is fun. These are just two examples of why they should be in game. Oh hold on a minute, it IS a game, and that's my point. Who cares if it's not how things should be?

I'm not against some condensation on ship's pointy bits and shockwaves. But as for being not how things should be - I think that many do. In Frontier you got to play space pirates in more or less real universe - it doesn't get much cooler than that and the realism only amplified the fun, because the most restrictive pieces of realism were overridden by in-game powerful, but not outrageously implausible technology.

If you don't agree that realism is far more effective at amplifying drama, than tutti-frutti GFX, watch Space odyssey 2001/2010 and post here again.

As for sun-skimming - it was a risky way of obtaining hydrogen from stars, which are largely made of, you know, hydrogen, so if you had sufficiently shielded craft, I'm all for it.

For a start we don't know how things are going to develop so i'd go with similar gameplay to FFE but crank up the gfx to reflect modern technology.
A reasonable suggestion, though I'd alter a few things:

-more variety in hardware and weapons (mass drivers for long range hitting power, etc).
-HUD zoom function
-functional crews
-more hardpoints
-more and more varied man-made structures (surface, atmospheric, orbital and Lagrangian ones)
-more lively systems
-more mission variety
-hyperdrive addon allowing for targetting individual stellar masses in system as jump reference points (Proxima F****** centauri)
-@#%^$#^$! proximity alerts, exiting stardreamer milliseconds before getting vaporized by an LPA was possible to overcome with practice but an instant n00b killer.


If you make it too difficult it will turn players away.
Complex doesn't equal difficult and simple doesn't equal easy.

On the other hand, going from complex to simple equals dumbing down, equals boring, equals not fun.

Add some tutorial, optional flight and combat assist hardware (that veteran players will sell immediately for fun and profit) preinstalled on starting craft, and make default starting point(s) somewhere else than Phekda and it's going to be fine.
 

Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
Volunteer Moderator
It is a fine balancing act, I mean all the previous Elite games were way ahead of there time with the gameplay, and very good graphically.

I want the game to look and feel realistic, more like this is how it looks in space, not flashing lights and sparkly bits.
 
It is a fine balancing act, I mean all the previous Elite games were way ahead of there time with the gameplay, and very good graphically.

I want the game to look and feel realistic, more like this is how it looks in space, not flashing lights and sparkly bits.

This. Frontier bridged hardcore realism with accessible and fun gameplay, I don't see the reason why Elite 4 wouldn't be able to repeat this.

Besides, realism can be really cool on it's own, I mean:

Rick Robinson's First Law of Space Combat said:

How much cooler can it get?

Sissy WWI dogfights emulated in space (or rather "SPAAACE!") with pew-pew
"lasers" (looking as if ships were throwing fluorescent lamps at each other) and planets the size of a watermelon? Don't be silly.
 
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Sir.Tj

The Moderator who shall not be Blamed....
Volunteer Moderator
This. Frontier bridged hardcore realism with accessible and fun gameplay, I don't see the reason why Elite 4 wouldn't be able to repeat this.

Besides, realism can be really cool on it's own, I mean:



How much cooler can it get?

Sissy WWI dogfights emulated in space (or rather "SPAAACE!") with pew-pew lasers ("lasers") and planets the size of a watermelon? Don't be silly.

Totally agree 100%. I've said on here before I want evolution not revolution when it come to E4.
 
Totally agree 100%. I've said on here before I want evolution not revolution when it come to E4.
Hmm. I actually want revolution since, IMHO, Elite and Frontier were revolutionary. But I know what you mean; it has to be instantly recognisable as an Elite/Frontier kind of game :eek:
 
You must remember that any object with a considerably different temperature to the atmosphere will create a vapour trail in the atmosphere.
 
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