Elite AI feels right but isn't worth fighting

[Shaamaan]

I took a break from ED somewhere after Horizons was released and the AI was pretty easy to deal with back then (ballerina-dance bug notwithstanding). Oh, the AI could still be very dangerous when they were grouped up (death by a thousand cuts was a reality). And it was quite frequent to see AIs in wings too.

I came back after the break, and I'm reading that first the AI was really over the top, then they tweaked it, but it was buggy (and this still over the top), now they tweaked it and it's... easy again?

Well, make up your mind, I say!

Anyway, I fought an elite FAS in my Python last night, and came out of the fight without ammo and just over 30% hull left. I may have started the fight with not enough ammo (MCs) to begin with, which meant I only had my pulse lasers and a single beam to work with (weapons which definitely aren't best for dispatching hull) during the latter half of the encounter, meaning I probably could have taken less damage then I did. The fight was actually a 2v1 initially, but the other NPC was "just" a competent-rank cobra and was dispatched of very quickly.

Also, my Python isn't (yet) engineered (well, I did get the FSD upgrade and some rank 1 combat upgrades, but those are miniscule).

Needless to say, the fight didn't seem easy. The FAS was armed with rails and had a ton of chaff (do they ever run out?) and the fight turned into a drawn out circling competition, where my turreted weapons would slooowly chip away at shields. Occasionally the FAS would boost away and then there was nothing I could do but put pips to shields because I knew I was going to get hit by those rails. Eventually the enemy ran out of SCBs, then sometime later I ran out of mine (that's why I ended up with 30% hull).

So, here's my thoughts on the matter...

a) Biggest sin: the fight wasn't worth it. I was looking to get bounties for the alliance in a HazRES (in alliance space) and the kill netted a really disproportional bounty. I don't think it paid for the ship repairs (which was ~100k I believe). Perhaps it was my own mistake for starting the fight without actually checking the bounty but I assumed a target with such a rank would be actually worth the risk.
b) The fight was a bit boring. I'm not sure it was a good idea to equip NPCs with SCBs. Perhaps limit them to 1? The point is - it became a battle of attrition, not a battle of skill. Drawing the fight out might be good and proper in PvP, but this isn't about PvP. The general feeling is that one needs to bail out from the RES after such a fight and go restock (ammo, SCBs, heat-sinks, repairs) far more frequently, which adds tedium to the whole experience without giving anything back. It also ties in with point a)... perhaps if the bounty had been worth it?
c) I'm at this weird point where I don't think I can get any better. I don't have a HOTAS, I rely on a traditional keyboard + mouse combo. I do use FA-OFF occasionally for faster turns, but I wouldn't ever consider it to actually fly with. I utilize vertical and lateral thrusters (as much as I can think of utilising them), and I keep to the blue zone. But, as stated, the fight turned into a circling battle of attrition, and the enemy would occasionally boost away, and then have perfect aim to hit me with rails. Perhaps having rank 5 dirty drives would give me enough agility to actually avoid getting shot, but this would lead to the conclusion that engineering upgrades are a must. Needless to say - I don't think the AI requires any more buffs / nerfs to it's piloting abilities. An argument could be made that a different ship would fare better in this scenario, but while not-engineered the Python is a multi-role ship and has been properly outfitted. Shouldn't it also be able to perform well (i.e. for longer periods of time) in a RES?

To summarize (TL;DR version):
The elite NPCs do pose a significant danger, but fights can become boring due to SCB spam. Also they aren't worth the risk. If they aren't worth the risk, then what's the point?

 

[lysan]

I haven't seen a NPC ship use SCB and then pop a heat sink? so yeah there is an issue here for sure. You can reload the MC by using the materials you collect on planet surfaces.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Pretty much sums up why I stopped space combat gameplay. Costs a lot of time and repair bill - earns little. I went to planetary stuff almost exclusively.

 

[Tataboj]

Well, that's what the Elite rank is supposed to be. The best of the best. A real challenge to fight. You can engage just lower ranks if you want more bounty hunting.

 

[Conch]

i think the combat is great fun, but the payout is lousy to say the least..

i really miss the Hudson rank 5 bonus from a year back, it made fighting way more fun and rewarding.

 

[noldunar]

Just a few points:

-A FAS is more maneuverable than a Python. With the AI upgrade, bigger and tougher is not always better. It depends on the opponent you face and the loadout. Against high ranked maneuverable ships you acutally do better if you fly a small maneuverable ship yourself: Vulture, Diamondback Scout for example (or also an FAS).

-Like it was said: Elite is Elite and it should be like that. An Elite ranked in opponent in a tough combat ship like the FAS should be a serious threat. They do have deadly accuracy. It doesn't get any more difficult.

-If the enemy has rails you should close the distance as fast as possible. So if you see him boosting away don't put 4 pips into shields. Put 4 pips into engines and boost after him. If you see him turn towards you (check the hologram), then you put 4 pips in shields and alternate using left and right thrust to "wiggle" sideways. If you are lucky this will cause a few shots to miss. But a few will hit you. Therefore you have to get close quick and try to stay close.

-You can still make serious money bounty hunting in a High Intensity RES instead of a Haz RES. For casual pilots Haz RES should be considered wing content or end game content. In a High Intensity RES, depending on the spawn you get juicy FDLs and Anacondas, Clippers and Gunships or wings and you have security backup. Use the security as your wing mates. Pick your fights carefully and engage targets that are already engaged with other targets from an advantageous position.

These few tips should still earn you decent bounty money.

 

[Conch]

I haven't seen a NPC ship use SCB and then pop a heat sink? so yeah there is an issue here for sure.

i remember my grandpa told me from old myths, but it turns out they are not true.. the NPC heat is a LIE!

 

[Shaamaan]

You can reload the MC by using the materials you collect on planet surfaces.

True - I forgot this option exists at all at the time. But I haven't ever used it before, so I'm not sure using it right in the middle of the fight would be a good idea.

But, yeah, that's definitely a point to remember!

BUT, while I appreciate the suggestion, me running out of ammo wasn't really the point of the post. Yes, you can use that to reload, but that requires preparation (having the materials at hand to reload) - as such it feels more like an emergency thing, rather than something one would use to prolong fighting in a RES or CZ...

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Just a few points:

-A FAS is more maneuverable than a Python. With the AI upgrade, bigger and tougher is not always better. It depends on the opponent you face and the loadout. Against high ranked maneuverable ships you acutally do better if you fly a small maneuverable ship yourself: Vulture, Diamondback Scout for example (or also an FAS).

-Like it was said: Elite is Elite and it should be like that. An Elite ranked in opponent in a tough combat ship like the FAS should be a serious threat. They do have deadly accuracy. It doesn't get any more difficult.

-If the enemy has rails you should close the distance as fast as possible. So if you see him boosting away don't put 4 pips into shields. Put 4 pips into engines and boost after him. If you see him turn towards you (check the hologram), then you put 4 pips in shields and alternate using left and right thrust to "wiggle" sideways. If you are lucky this will cause a few shots to miss. But a few will hit you. Therefore you have to get close quick and try to stay close.

-You can still make serious money bounty hunting in a High Intensity RES instead of a Haz RES. For casual pilots Haz RES should be considered wing content or end game content. In a High Intensity RES, depending on the spawn you get juicy FDLs and Anacondas, Clippers and Gunships or wings and you have security backup. Use the security as your wing mates. Pick your fights carefully and engage targets that are already engaged with other targets from an advantageous position.

These few tips should still earn you decent bounty money.

Wow, excellent post!

That does highlight a few issues with the system still (like HazRES being worse than HiRES), but otherwise those are some excellent points. I guess I could have taken even less damage if I had taken those points into account.

That said, I'd still argue that an elite-rated opponent is just not worth the time it takes to defeat them, ATM. Given your suggestions I don't think the combat time with the FAS would have been any lower - I'd just take less damage in the process. I'm deliberately excluding your last tip (use security as wing-mates), because I think (in a 1-on-1) an elite NPC should still net appropriate rewards.

 

[LameoveR]

I hunt in HiRes with my engineered Python. Elite NPCs take a little more time to die.

 

[fantasmic]

lol, I love getting them to SCB spam. AI is not the least bit afraid to cook itself to death, that's for sure.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The elite NPCs do pose a significant danger, but fights can become boring due to SCB spam. Also they aren't worth the risk. If they aren't worth the risk, then what's the point?

1) Elite NPCs offer the most rank-gain, and at some point the only useful gain.
2) SCB spam depends on you. AI apply SCB fairly late, so you should be able to time attacks better: bring the shields down to 'lets spam SCB' level only when you are in a position to continue fire. Dont forget that 4pips to shields + ramming is great to break shields.
3) Elite NPCs have bounties up to 350k or so, which can be doubled using power benefits. Add to that the 2.5-3million you get for an assassination mission, and that one elite NPC can earn you almost four million credits in a few minutes. Its true that 'farming' them may be worth less the time depending on your own skill, but I occassionally do 3-5 assassination missions in a session, and consistently can get 8-15 million for it.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Wow, that was an epic fight. Well done!

If you enjoy big long battles, you end up funding them by other means. Take a cheap small ship to a HiREZ and plink at a few Anacondas on their death beds. Take the Python on a few trade runs. But yes, you are right. There's no financial return if you smash up a costly ship in a big fight. Maybe there shouldn't be? It's an inherently high risk activity, with the liklihood of loss.

 

[CMDR Corlas]

I think your problem was mostly down to Python vs FAS. That is always a tough fight, simply because the Python is nearly completely outclassed by the FAS in terms of combat.

When the AI wasn't as good, it wasn't nearly as noticeable, but with a human in the Python and AI in the FAS... It seems that our normal human aspects - inability to perfectly watch the bluezone and fight at the same time, tendency to make a mistake here or there, good aim but not generally amazing - are all amplified by the negative qualities of the Python - agility is meh to start with and drops sharply when out of the bluezone, acceleration isn't super, etc. While at the same time the qualities of FAS play right in to the qualities of the AI - AI can be fantastic at aiming (but is not perfect), and the FAS supports that well with good hardpoint placement and fine nose-control; the AI can watch the bluezone like a hawk while still fighting, and the FAS is just crazy agile in the bluezone; etc.

AI in an FAS is probably the hardest NPC fight in the game right, unless you just blow them up right out of the gate with overwhelming firepower.

I think the main problems with the AI right now is a lack of variety in tactics and a lack of "emotion" from the AI. Ideally, the AI wouldn't fly nearly as confidently and aggressively at no shields and 50% hull as they do at 100% shields and hull.

 

[=71st=RuSh]

The NPC are not bad now, you can defeat them, but they can scratch you ship, depends on the skills of the AI. When I had my Engineered A Python, was easy against smaller ships, but sometimes appeared a VULTURE, FAS, FDL or PYTHON with an elite or dangerous guy, and I sweat trying to deal with them! sometimes had to run!

 

[babelfisch]

- the FAS is more maneuverable but the Python has more firepower if you bring enough ammo
- you are not among the best pilots but you fought against an Elite NPC in a superior vessel
- your enemy was in a wing

 

[AdamBell]

You said you had turrets. Turrets aren't a good choice if you're able to keep an opponent within your front arc a significant amount of the time, which you should be able to if you're using FA/Off in a Python. Switch to gimballed for a damage boost.

 

[D.G.Cerberus]

I think your problem was mostly down to Python vs FAS. That is always a tough fight, simply because the Python is nearly completely outclassed by the FAS in terms of combat.

When the AI wasn't as good, it wasn't nearly as noticeable, but with a human in the Python and AI in the FAS... It seems that our normal human aspects - inability to perfectly watch the bluezone and fight at the same time, tendency to make a mistake here or there, good aim but not generally amazing - are all amplified by the negative qualities of the Python - agility is meh to start with and drops sharply when out of the bluezone, acceleration isn't super, etc. While at the same time the qualities of FAS play right in to the qualities of the AI - AI can be fantastic at aiming (but is not perfect), and the FAS supports that well with good hardpoint placement and fine nose-control; the AI can watch the bluezone like a hawk while still fighting, and the FAS is just crazy agile in the bluezone; etc.

AI in an FAS is probably the hardest NPC fight in the game right, unless you just blow them up right out of the gate with overwhelming firepower.

I think the main problems with the AI right now is a lack of variety in tactics and a lack of "emotion" from the AI. Ideally, the AI wouldn't fly nearly as confidently and aggressively at no shields and 50% hull as they do at 100% shields and hull.

Actually, I think my largest problems these days are wings of 4 little ships of Elite/ Deadly rank. Usually comprising a Cobra and some others. The Cobra always seems to have "never miss" rails or similar and so do the little Sideys and Eagles. I've tried flattening the little ones and that leaves the Cobra constantly getting me and we end up 1:1. I can win it, but its tough. Other way round getting the Cobra first is slightly better but still no push-over.
(This is in an un-modded FDL by the way - when I am in the 'Vette I only seem to get Python/ Conda/ FDL @ Elite rank, but less in wings. Much easier)

 

[CMDR Corlas]

Actually, I think my largest problems these days are wings of 4 little ships of Elite/ Deadly rank. Usually comprising a Cobra and some others. The Cobra always seems to have "never miss" rails or similar and so do the little Sideys and Eagles. I've tried flattening the little ones and that leaves the Cobra constantly getting me and we end up 1:1. I can win it, but its tough. Other way round getting the Cobra first is slightly better but still no push-over.
(This is in an un-modded FDL by the way - when I am in the 'Vette I only seem to get Python/ Conda/ FDL @ Elite rank, but less in wings. Much easier)

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about those wings. Those rails are delightfully murderous.

The 3x FGS wings aren't even a problem, because I just flat-out refuse to engage, haha.

 

[D.G.Cerberus]

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about those wings. Those rails are delightfully murderous.

The 3x FGS wings aren't even a problem, because I just flat-out refuse to engage, haha.

They are like irritating mosquitos....but you know they carry some dreadful terminal virus.....

 

[Earth Ultimatum IV.]

Totally agree with OP. Merit and cash rewards for kills are laughable. AI is OP (just reduce the amount of SCB+chaff spam and ultra accuracy with fixed guns, it's ridiculous).