Elite and SpaceEngine

grimdar · Jan 9, 2015

Don't get me wrong, I like Elite. But I can't help to think of the possibilities Elite could have if it used a procedural engine like SpaceEngine.

For those who don't know what SpaceEngine is, it's a procedurally created Universe you can explore for free. It's absolutely astonishing, because it incorporates an immense amount of simulation (atmospheres, orbits, various stars, large number of planet types, black holes, nebulas). Whats even more amazing is that you can zip around the universe and galaxies completely seemlessly, with no loading screens. This entire thing was made by ONE developer. It even has flight physics, and you can fly around using spaceship physics or flight (atmosphere) physics.

After experiencing SpaceEngine... I find many things that can be improved with ED. Right now with Elite, the spacejumps break the seemless galaxy for me, it feels like a gimmicky loading screen. I don't feel like I'm traveling through this procedural galaxy. Planets that have 2 stars are only lit by one of the stars. Planets that orbit stars very closely usually have a trail of dust being blown off into space, this is nicely simulated in SE. Planets as of now are just pretty backgrounds.. I wish we could land on them.

I can go on forever... but I will just home someday ED will truly feel open. If you think ED feels vast.. take SpaceEngine for a spin.

Edit - It also supports Oculus DK2 now, in which it looks amazing.

SpacialKatana · Jan 9, 2015

SE is very good, if you have the rig to power it, luckily I have and I agree with you it's awesome.

Somehow I think ED's planet landings are going to be special. We'll need to wait and see

fw190a8 · Jan 9, 2015

SpacialKatana said:
SE is very good, if you have the rig to power it

Yeah this. It's quite a technical challenge to make a game looking as great as Elite and have a chance of it running at 60fps on a range of systems. Space Engine definitely definitely does not manage 60fps for me and I have one of the best single GPUs on the market!

Plus, Space Engine's developer is not focused on the gameplay elements or the background simulation whatsoever, and is instead concentrating on physics, random generation and lovely lovely visuals.

There's also a bunch of places in which Space Engine looks REALLY bad, with weirdly distorted textures and things, although for the most part it does look great.

I was thinking of making a few custom systems in Space Engine (these are just script files) that would simulate some of the more iconic places in Elite. I tried, and failed miserably. Wondering if anyone might have tried this?

nats · Jan 9, 2015

Having just watched Interstellar at our local cinema I cant wait to experience some of those magnificent planetary views in ED eventually.

zynaps · Jan 9, 2015

The way SE does procedural planets (GPU shaders) is terrible.

Heathy · Jan 9, 2015

I have to agree with the gripes about hyperspace jumps, it would be nice if the length of the jump was somewhat comparable to the distance your jumping, but it seems to be either completely random or it really is a loading screen, ill jump to a system and even though there were no stars nearby ill see some fly past, or when the game lags and you end up in hyperspace for about 3-5 mins for some strange reason.

but i totally agree even though it does have a sweet effect it breaks the feeling of seamless and simply makes you realize your just jumping from one skybox to the next. its a shame you can't super cruise to other systems although i suppose even at 2000c even the closest systems would take multiple hours to reach that way.

grimdar · Jan 9, 2015

fw190a8 said:
Plus, Space Engine's developer is not focused on the gameplay elements or the background simulation whatsoever, and is instead concentrating on physics, random generation and lovely lovely visuals.

Well, that's my point. Imagine SE's world coupled with ED's gameplay and ships. It would be absolutely insane.

fw190a8 · Jan 9, 2015

zynaps said:
The way SE does procedural planets (GPU shaders) is terrible.

Congrats, you win the prize for the most upbeat post of the thread!

NeoRacer · Jan 9, 2015

Really? Show me something better thats currently out there?

zynaps said:
The way SE does procedural planets (GPU shaders) is terrible.

Armour · Jan 9, 2015

The OP must be trolling, surely.

You do know what game you're talking about, right? Does the name David Braben ring any bells?

400 Billion stars? What, do you think they've all been placed by hand, or that the textures they use are all stored on disk somewhere?

NeoRacer · Jan 9, 2015

Yes I made another post about this last week (who cared tho!?!?!?! LOOOL) They should hire him at least to work on the planet side stuff IMHO. Why re-invent the wheel when someones done it very well already

grimdar said:
Well, that's my point. Imagine SE's world coupled with ED's gameplay and ships. It would be absolutely insane.

grimdar · Jan 9, 2015

Armour said:
The OP must be trolling, surely.

You do know what game you're talking about, right? Does the name David Braben ring any bells?

400 Billion stars? What, do you think they've all been placed by hand, or that the textures they use are all stored on disk somewhere?

So... in your opinion, ED is at a perfect state and no improvement is needed in terms of visuals and freedom of the galaxy. Right.

Good thing you're not the production manager.

CreepyD · Jan 9, 2015

I see where the OP is coming from, but in terms of using a game engine to make a game, SE just isn't built for that I don't think.
To make a game like ED, that had to start from scratch and make it from the ground up so everything will work how they want it to.

I'm certain that the planetary visuals will improve a lot, especially once we see planetary landings.
They already improved them multiple times throughout the beta process.
Whether it will come close to what SE offers now - we'll have to wait and see.

nexxo · Jan 9, 2015

NeoRacer said:
View attachment 7697Really? Show me something better thats currently out there?

I can show you a lot worse --in SE. It has some beautiful bits, but it also has some planets with really wonky graphics.

Janichsan · Jan 9, 2015

grimdar said:
So... in your opinion, ED is at a perfect state and no improvement is needed in terms of visuals and freedom of the galaxy. Right.

No, he refers to you suggesting that FD should have used a procedural engine for ED when that is exactly what they are doing.

Apart from that, I think that the universe is not as seamless in ED as it is in SE is not because Frontier couldn't have done it, but rather that such a seamless world would not work very well as base for an MMO with several thousands concurrent players.

Armour · Jan 9, 2015

grimdar said:
So... in your opinion, ED is at a perfect state and no improvement is needed in terms of visuals and freedom of the galaxy. Right.

Good thing you're not the production manager.

me said:
So, in your opinion, I'm a perfect candidate for President of the Galaxy. Right. Good thing you're not eligible to vote due to being lobotomized at birth.

See how stupid that looks?

Where did I say, or even imply, anything even remotely approaching what you decided were my opinions?

I made the point that this game is using procedural generation, so it is a procedural engine. It could not use any other method and have the amount of data content it currently does, not without each client coming with a free Petabyte hard drive, anyway...

"Procedural engine" doesn't mean "must have planets with seams and popping, and no gameplay". It just means that algorithm-derived data is used as a foundation for some (or even the majority) of the content. It's nothing new, and it has a wide spectrum of "proceduralness". Even Skyrim could be termed a procedural engine (Speedtree is used, which is procedurally generated content in-engine, the character generator is kind of procedural, quests are procedurally generated in previously visited locations, once the main storyline quests have been cleared).

You don't get to make up the meaning of terms, just like you don't get to make up the meaning of what I posted. Not without some ridicule, anyway.

(okay, the crack about SE having no gameplay is a bit unfair. The developer has done marvellous work thus far. However, so has Flavien Brebion with the Infinity engine, but there's still no game in there yet either. The Limit Theory guy is so busy playing with his toolkit that he's missed more deadlines than Amelia Earhart. Just saying, going from an engine to a game is a tricky process, and let's see what these lone wolves manage to pull off before claiming that this game has a lot to learn from them.)

Ideas Man · Jan 9, 2015

Armour said:
See how stupid that looks?

Where did I say, or even imply, anything even remotely approaching what you decided were my opinions?

I made the point that this game is using procedural generation, so it is a procedural engine. It could not use any other method and have the amount of data content it currently does, not without each client coming with a free Petabyte hard drive, anyway...

"Procedural engine" doesn't mean "must have planets with seams and popping, and no gameplay". It just means that algorithm-derived data is used as a foundation for some (or even the majority) of the content. It's nothing new, and it has a wide spectrum of "proceduralness". Even Skyrim could be termed a procedural engine (Speedtree is used, which is procedurally generated content in-engine, the character generator is kind of procedural, quests are procedurally generated in previously visited locations, once the main storyline quests have been cleared).

You don't get to make up the meaning of terms, just like you don't get to make up the meaning of what I posted. Not without some ridicule, anyway.

(okay, the crack about SE having no gameplay is a bit unfair. The developer has done marvellous work thus far. However, so has Flavien Brebion with the Infinity engine, but there's still no game in there yet either. The Limit Theory guy is so busy playing with his toolkit that he's missed more deadlines than Amelia Earhart. Just saying, going from an engine to a game is a tricky process, and let's see what these lone wolves manage to pull off before claiming that this game has a lot to learn from them.)

Jeez dude chill out why do so many people on here feel the need to nit pick and write essays?

Armour · Jan 9, 2015

Ideas Man said:
Jeez dude chill out why do so many people on here feel the need to nit pick and write essays?

Well, like, that's just your opinon, Ideas Man.
Here's an idea for you: why not wait until you have something of interest to contribute toward the thread topic before posting?

Ideas Man · Jan 9, 2015

Armour said:
Well, like, that's just your opinon, Ideas Man.
Here's an idea for you: why not wait until you have something of interest to contribute toward the thread topic before posting?

Space Engine knocks spots off ED in the Rift, looks wise, it looks better. The OP has some great ideas and a mash up between ED and SE would be really nice.

Aquila Oculus · Jan 9, 2015

Back on track (calm down, calm down)...

I didn't know much about this title, thanks for bringing it up. I'm going to check this out tomorrow

Looks incredible