Engineers Engineers - Level 5 Multi-Cannon (help)

[Cliché]

I haven't played much with the engineers yet. I thought I'd look into upgrading my multi-cannons. For an example, I'll look at level 5 multi-cannon upgrades.

I have to assume that all stations stock the same ammo, and you synthesis the same ammo, so only the weapon is changed. It also appears that the shells contain their own chemical explosive to propel the round (flame out the barrel).


1. Efficient Weapon

Significant reduction in thermal load, power draw, and distributor draw (not sure what the difference is between the last two). The rate of fire goes down, but the there is still a small increase in damage.

OK, I can see better thermal designs, better motors, and etc., to explain the better thermal and power usage. I can believe that a cooler barrel allows for a higher muzzle velocity and higher damage, even if the rate of fire is decreased for some reason.

This is a believable mod.


2. High Capacity Magazine

Significant increase in ammo clip size and maximum ammo - makes sense.

Significant increase in mass. Is that mass of the weapon? That makes no sense. Maybe a relatively small increase due to a larger magazine and more ammo?

Significant increase in reload time. I suppose it takes longer to load more ammo from the clip to the magazine, or vise versa. I guess this makes sense.

Significant increase in power draw - why? Why would it take ~30% more power to fire each round?

This mod is mixed.


3. Lightweight Mount

Significant decrease in mass and integrity, with a small decrease in damage. This makes sense.

This mod is believable.


4. Overcharged Weapon

Significant increase in damage per second, but only a smaller increase in overall damage. I'm not sure how those go together, but I'll live with it. There is also a moderate increase in rate of fire. Fine.

Significant increase in distributor draw. Ok, more power to shoot faster, and maybe more power to for better cooling so the rounds fly faster, accounting for more kinetic damage. Maybe it adds a little electromagnetic propulsion? Whatever.

This mod is believable.


5. Short Range Blaster

Significant decrease in maximum range - duh.

Significant increase in damage per second and damage. Well, I thought you were already supposed to get this benefit by shooting from closer range? I guess it must be increased even more?

Ok, generally the faster a round is, the longer the range or the more damage up close. So why are these opposite?

Significant increases to distributor draw and thermal load, with significant decrease to integrity. Why? What is going on here? Other than making the weapon a piece of crap that uses more power, runs hot, falls apart, and shoots a bigger round that travels slower, I can't figure out what's going on here.

Of all the mods, this make the least sense. Can someone please explain this?


6. Sturdy Mount

Massive increase in mass - ok, makes sense.

Significant increase in integrity - I guess those go together.

Increase in "Amrour Piercing" - I have no idea what that means. Resistance to damage, I assume?

This mod seems believable, with the above assumption.



Do some of these mods actually require different ammo? If so, do the rounds cost the same? Do they have different synthesis recipes?


As for experimental effects, the auto loading sounds like the only actual weapon modification. All the others just sound like they must be different ammo. Or does the gun somehow magically change the standard ammo? If they are different ammo, why can't anybody just buy the different ammo?


Anyway, some of these mods make logical sense - others, not so much. I like to get up close and nasty, but the short range blaster mod looks horrible for no logical reason that I can see. If I have a hard time believing the mod is possible, or reasonable, I'll have a hard time actually going through the trouble to deal with these engineers. I can hardly wait it look into the other engineers and mods. [blah]

 

[Jabezz]

I've got corrosion effects and no special ammo is required. Just restock as usual in the station.

 

[Devari]

4. Overcharged Weapon

Significant increase in damage per second, but only a smaller increase in overall damage. I'm not sure how those go together, but I'll live with it. There is also a moderate increase in rate of fire. Fine.

This means that the Overcharged mods will out-damage basically every other weapon mod for only a minor penalty of an increased distributor draw. The increased distributor draw would be a big drawback for energy weapons but is a very low penalty for multicannons, which means overcharged mods will come out ahead for multis basically all the time. The remaining mods may have some very narrow niche uses where they might be situationally better than the overcharged mod for very specific builds, but if your goal is doing as much damage to another ship as quickly as possible (and this should always be your goal with multicannons) then the overcharged mods are the best choice by far due to the massive dps increase.

 

[CptXabaras]

I'm using G5 overcharged on all my multis. With incendiary rounds on 5 of them and corrosive shells on 2 of them.

They all deal more damage than a fixed beam laser of equivalent level

As compared to the same weapon unmodified, the medium multis deal slightly more damage than their Large counterparts. The small output more damage than the medium counterpart. The 2 Huge have become an overkilling weapon dealing more damage than fixed beam laser... And I can fire them all with 1 pip to weapon... Or fire a good time without pips on weapons before the capacitor is drained. Go overcharged, you won't regret it.

Edit, forgot about the Large multi overcharged dealing the damage of his huge counterpart

 

[Cliché]

... And I can fire them all with 1 pip to weapon... Or fire a good time without pips on weapons before the capacitor is drained. Go overcharged, you won't regret it.

Yeah, it seems that overcharged is best if you are looking for inflicting damage. I assume FE will nerf them. Btw, is that 1-pip on a standard distributor, or a mod?

After sleeping on it, I came up with a possible logical reason for the SRB. Maybe it fragments the round so it does more damage at a shorter range? This could explain using more power and generating heat, and maybe even shaking the gun apart for lower integrity.

The efficient weapon looks like a no brainer for energy weapon aficionados.

If you don't use shields, or get your butt kicked constantly, the sturdy mount may be for you.

I see no use for the lightweight mount. If you want multi-cannons while out exploring in case you run into Thargoids, you are not going to want a lightweight mount. Otherwise, just run.

Anyway, I wish FD would have the engineers better explain the mods and why they have certain side effects - not just this is what you get, take it or leave it.

 

[derjaster]

I see no use for the lightweight mount.

I could see some use for it in a super light courier or imperial eagle combat build with enhanced thrusters. Every ton shaved off helps.

 

[Bacalao]

If you're looking for believable mechanics you're looking in the wrong game, and definitely in the wrong feature.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Just want to give some props to Efficient Weapons. The multi cannons already are guns that drain low power, and that change makes it possible to ameliorate the the costs of operation to almost zero. Mounting these weapons make it more viable to do 2 things that add survivability- run the ship without pips in WEP periodically, and undersize the Power Plant to reduce weight.
This combination gives greater speed and maneuverability to the ship, better for sustained operation with less heat.

We want to avoid putting pips in WEP. All they do is help charge the capacitor reserve. If those pips are put in ENG, we gain both recharge and performance. If they are in SYS, we get shield hardening as well as capacitor recharge. This advantage suits ship builds that rely on superiority in spaceodynamics but are tight on power.

 

[biohazard15]

I use three L5 overcharged Multis on my Python, one Corrosive and two Incendiary. The ship is absolute beast with them, it rips anything to shreds in seconds, except maybe some up-armored large ships.
'
The drawbacks are:
- Increased heat generation due to Incendiary effects. You can go over 80% by shooting entire magazine non-stop. This is a minor drawback, since it cools superfast (I've modded my PP for heat efficiency).
- -25% total ammo reduction for Corrosive MC. Again, this is a minor drawback, since I can always reload it with synthesis.
- Increased distributor draw - it's not that noticeable with MCs, and my PD is modded for recharge speed.
'
For secondary weapons, I chose burst lasers with Efficient Weapon and Scrable Spectrum mods. Now, these really shine. I can fire these without any heat and distributor draw. And Scramble Spectrum effect really works on NPCs. It's very satisfying to see FAS ramming rock due to engine malfunction.

 

[d8veh]

Make things simple for yourself. Instead of worrying about all that, just get the level 5 overcharged multi-cannons and smash your enemies to smithereens. Of course, you can make things even better by using the premium ammo synthesis in your RH panel, which gives another 30% more damage.

 

[goemon]

I see no use for the lightweight mount.

i have them

- on my courier. with enhanced performance thruster every ton below 90T pays out in speed and manouverability
- on my DBE. large MC are one of the most heavy moduls on it, and that mass is reduced massively now - it is fun to fly a pve combat ready ship with 45 ly jumprange

i will get them for my FDL, because

- it already has problems to be kept at 50% optimal thruster mass for maximum speed and manouverability. reducing mass of that very heavy huge MC will help with that.

 

[Devari]

Yeah, it seems that overcharged is best if you are looking for inflicting damage. I assume FE will nerf them.

FD has already done a balancing pass on the weapon mods, generally their "balancing" for the Grade 5 mods has been to try to provide more drawbacks for some of the experiment effects (such as reducing ROF and increasing thermal load significantly for incendiary rounds) and generally trying to limit access to the very rare mats (such as Modified Embedded Firmware for overcharged mods). Interestingly despite the overall decrease in mat requirements and increase in mat drops in 2.1.05 some players are actually finding that some very rare mats seem to be dropping less frequently than they did prior to 2.1.05, such as Modified Embedded Firmware from data point scans, so FD may be trying to "balance" these mods by actually making some very rare mats drop less frequently. Despite these changes however certain mods are still clearly superior for certain weapons, such as using Grade 5 overcharged mods for multicannons, as they provide very little if any real drawbacks to offset their benefits.

Significant increase in distributor draw. Ok, more power to shoot faster, and maybe more power to for better cooling so the rounds fly faster, accounting for more kinetic damage. Maybe it adds a little electromagnetic propulsion? Whatever.

Don't try too hard to explain the modification process. Unless you know a lot about military technology and firearms you will just find it annoying to try to rationalize the names that FD chose for these mods. The issue here is that FD decided to design certain mod "templates" that apply to multiple weapons so the mod names don't always make sense for certain weapons. For example the "overcharged weapon" mod is applied to both energy and projectile weapons so we're stuck with a single name that is applied to completely different weapons. The idea of "overcharging" makes sense for an energy weapon but the name makes little sense for a multicannon that uses ammunition. I don't get too bothered by this though, I read quite a bit about military history and firearms so I can usually come up with a believable technical "explanation" for how you would "overcharge" a gatling or rotary cannon, i.e., using both a higher fire rate ("overcharging" the gatling motor speed) and higher muzzle velocity ("overcharging" the propellant charge in the round). You can think of this like the effect of having a selectable fire option on certain versions of the 20 mm Vulcan autocannon which could be varied from 4000 rpm to 6000 rpm, essentially the "overcharged" mod is like building the weapon for a fixed higher fire rate and using higher velocity rounds. Generally I just ignore the fact that the name itself doesn't match the modification process very well for a projectile weapon.

Ok, generally the faster a round is, the longer the range or the more damage up close. So why are these opposite?

After sleeping on it, I came up with a possible logical reason for the SRB. Maybe it fragments the round so it does more damage at a shorter range? This could explain using more power and generating heat, and maybe even shaking the gun apart for lower integrity.

For the "short range blaster" modification for projectile weapons I would assume a heavier round with a lower muzzle velocity is used that is significantly less accurate at longer ranges, much like the design approach with the 30 mm Mk108 autocannon from WWII which uses a high fire rate and a short barrel that limits the ballistic performance of the round. The result was an inaccurate but powerful "short range" autocannon designed specifically for inflicting as much damage as possible on enemy bombers at close range. It was extremely effective in that role but was of limited utility against smaller fighters. So it is possible to "rationalize" most of the explanations if you know how military firearms work and how they have been designed and optimized historically but otherwise I wouldn't worry too much about the names that FD has chosen.

The efficient weapon looks like a no brainer for energy weapon aficionados.

Exactly, it can be quite useful for a energy-intensive build on a ship with a small PD relative to it's weapon mounts. Interestingly enough they specifically limited access to efficient modifications for beam lasers (which are currently limited to Grade 2 mods) so it's unclear if they considered it "too powerful" when used on beams (as you could fire them almost continuously on ships with large PDs) or if they're waiting to introduce an Engineer who specializes in beams.

If you don't use shields, or get your butt kicked constantly, the sturdy mount may be for you.

The issue here is to apply the sturdy mount modification to a weapon like a missile rack where you don't have a damage-increasing modification available and want to use the modification to get an experimental effect easily with favors (the mat requirements of only 1 nickel for a Grade 1 mod are trivial as well). The sturdy mount is also somewhat more useful on ships that have weak shields and relied on hull tanking prior to 2.1 such as the Federal Assault Ship, although hull taking is generally not an effective strategy in 2.1 for various reasons.

I see no use for the lightweight mount. If you want multi-cannons while out exploring in case you run into Thargoids, you are not going to want a lightweight mount. Otherwise, just run.

Much like the sturdy mount, the lightweight mount works best for weapons that don't have a direct damage-increasing option and is also quite useful with ships that are very weight-sensitive for various reasons (Imperial Courier, Imperial Eagle and certain lightweight exploration builds). This means that the lightweight mount both saves weight and improves damage/utility/etc. with the experimental effect.

I could see some use for it in a super light courier or imperial eagle combat build with enhanced thrusters. Every ton shaved off helps.

Exactly, the new Enhanced Performance thrusters means that you can only get the highest speeds if you run a very stripped-down build. The Imperal Courier is even more weight-sensitive with regards to weapons than the Imperial Eagle because it carries 12 tons of weapons (3 x class 2 mounts) and applying lightweight mount can save several tons and increase max boost by upwards of 30 ms/s or more. The other use would of lightweight mount be an extremely long-range explorer build, but since the FSD modifiers are more linear with respect to total mass you don't get as much impact as the very sharp transition you see with the Enhanced Performance thruster builds losing speed quickly once you cross the optimal mass threshold (which is quite low on the Enhanced Thrusters relative to regular thrusters).

I use three L5 overcharged Multis on my Python, one Corrosive and two Incendiary. The ship is absolute beast with them, it rips anything to shreds in seconds, except maybe some up-armored large ships.

I use the same multicannon setup on my Python and have also found that I absolutely wreck most larger ships very quickly. My secondary weapons are two class 2 beam turrets to help against shields and vs. smaller fighters and I find that the thermal load from the beams means that I rarely fire all of my weapons at the same time. I generally limit the use the beams vs. shields and I tend to save the corrosive MC for when shields have dropped (which offsets the lower ammo capacity) so that tends to deal with the overheating issues although it does limit my alpha strike capability. I can also overheat quickly if I'm firing weapons at the same time I'm using a shield cell and/or boosting (dirty drive mods with higher thermal load) so I tend to hold my fire when I'm using other heat-intensive modules to avoid self-inflicting module damage from overheating. I don't use the low emissions power plant mod since my Python uses an undersized A6 power plant to improve weight (which also maximizes my FSD range and minimizes my rebuy cost) and I need the power plant's full power capacity. I did use an armored power plant modification however and kept rolling until I got a mod that provides a slight thermal improvement (5% improvement from 0.4 to 0.38) without reducing power generation which helps slightly with heat generation but overall heat management is still a significant issue with my current build. I have been tempted to try putting the thermal vent experimental effect on my beams to see if this improves my heat dissipation issues but with all the chaff use we see from Elite NPCs I suspect the thermal vent might actually increase my heat problems if the beams miss frequently due to NPC chaff spamming issues.

 

[biohazard15]

I did use an armored power plant modification however and kept rolling until I got a mod that provides a slight thermal improvement (5% improvement from 0.4 to 0.38) without reducing power generation which helps slightly with heat generation but overall heat management is still a significant issue with my current build. I have been tempted to try putting the thermal vent experimental effect on my beams to see if this improves my heat dissipation issues but with all the chaff use we see from Elite NPCs I suspect the thermal vent might actually increase my heat problems if the beams miss frequently due to NPC chaff spamming issues.

I would recommend to try L1 low emissions mod. It can give you some power boost (I've got +2.5% power and 14.4% heat efficiency) and it is easy to reroll (all you need is iron, which can be found anywhere). I find integrity boost mods (sturdy mounts etc) absolutely useless for anything except maybe PVP builds.

 

[Devari]

I would recommend to try L1 low emissions mod. It can give you some power boost (I've got +2.5% power and 14.4% heat efficiency) and it is easy to reroll (all you need is iron, which can be found anywhere). I find integrity boost mods (sturdy mounts etc) absolutely useless for anything except maybe PVP builds.

Interesting, I didn't realize the secondaries on the Grade 1 low emissions mod can actually boost power generation now. When I rolled the Armored power plant mods they were really the only option to improve thermal efficiency without significantly reducing power output (since the Grade 1 mods generally had low positives and high negatives prior to 2.1.05). At that time I needed to go with a higher-grade Armored mod (Grade 4) to see any significant thermal improvement without affecting the power generation. The other benefit I was hoping to get from putting an Armored power plant on my Python and Asp was that for long-range exploration the power plant damage tends to be the most limiting factor (along with hull) given that the power plant isn't reparable so I was also hoping the Armored integrity boost would help if I ever took my Python on a SagA trip. I will probably need to try getting a power boost secondary effect from a Low emissions plant if I want to upgrade my thrusters to Grade 5 dirty drives as the power draw increase is significant and I don't really have any spare power in my current build but I don't want to have to upgrade to the much heavier A7 plant due to the weight (only 20 tons for the undersized A6 plant vs. 40 tons for the A7 plant).

 

[Kimosabe_X]

As I stated in another thread, low emissions PP Level 1 can be a really nice one, got about +25% heat efficiecy (0.4 -> 0.3/-17.8%) and a good MW more power on my Pythons 6A PP (25.20 -> 26.11/+3.6%) and only 3.0% increase in mass (20.00 -> 20.61T) That was worth every ton of iron I put into those rolls (about 6-8 iIrc)

 

[Devari]

As I stated in another thread, low emissions PP Level 1 can be a really nice one, got about +25% heat efficiecy (0.4 -> 0.3/-17.8%) and a good MW more power on my Pythons 6A PP (25.20 -> 26.11/+3.6%) and only 3.0% increase in mass (20.00 -> 20.61T) That was worth every ton of iron I put into those rolls (about 6-8 iIrc)

I just finished outfitting a Diamondback Explorer and I needed to use an overcharged power plant mod (my build was over by about 5% due to a thermal shield booster I added). My Grade 1 overcharged roll gave me +7.6% power capacity and the secondary roll actually improved the thermal efficiency to the point that the penalty was completely negated and I actually ended up with 2.6% heat efficiency improvement. So it seems that the new Grade 1 blueprints can commonly get secondaries that eliminate one or more of their primary drawbacks and actually turn them into slight bonuses (power capacity for the efficient power plants and thermal efficiency for the overcharged power plants).

 

[Morwo]

I'm using G5 overcharged on all my multis. With incendiary rounds on 5 of them and corrosive shells on 2 of them.

They all deal more damage than a fixed beam laser of equivalent level

As compared to the same weapon unmodified, the medium multis deal slightly more damage than their Large counterparts. The small output more damage than the medium counterpart. The 2 Huge have become an overkilling weapon dealing more damage than fixed beam laser... And I can fire them all with 1 pip to weapon... Or fire a good time without pips on weapons before the capacitor is drained. Go overcharged, you won't regret it.

Edit, forgot about the Large multi overcharged dealing the damage of his huge counterpart

googled whole evening for such a statement. as a mostly harmless cmdr i dont know which effects to pick for my FC!

 

[Basaltfeuer]

I have two oc multis on my corvette, one with corrosive and one with thermal ... but i am wondering if the thermal is of any uses since i dont use them on shields, only on hull ... would two corrosive be the better choice?

 

[Andrej]

I have two oc multis on my corvette, one with corrosive and one with thermal ... but i am wondering if the thermal is of any uses since i dont use them on shields, only on hull ... would two corrosive be the better choice?

Thermal reduce your damage against hull, and corrosive effect do not stack, so second corrosive multi be useless, you just lost some ammo.

 

[Basaltfeuer]

So what effect should i choose on the second mc instead of thermal?