Engineers Engineers Proposals We Can All Agree On

Caveat: This post assumes the materials grind is here to stay. Not because I like it - I dont - but because Frontier seems intent on grind.

Fine. Its here. Lets make it tolerable, instead of terrible. Here is how:

-ALL Materials are buyable on the market. Whatever economic type it makes sense for these materials to show up, they are. In reasonable numbers, vis a vis what we need to craft items. NOT in ones and twos.

-ALL materials are available by playing "our" way. NO MATTER WHICH WAY THAT IS. No one should be FORCED to mine, or trade, or hunt bounties, to get a certain type of material.

Elite was sold to players on the basis of "Play your way." And it stayed that way for a year. Then, Engineers hit, and the game became "Play your way...and miss out on an entire expansion worth of content. OR, play the way we TELL YOU TO, and you can maybe see a bit of that content after all.

This is bad. It pushes people away from the game. It burns people out. No one wants this - not the players, who want to enjoy Elite. Not the devs, who need players engaged and happy in order to make money.

-Pin an unlimited number of recipes. Because it makes ZERO sense that we cannot do this. Literally none. Fix it.

-Let us craft the upgrades in our ships, and apply them in ANY station. Making us fly halfway across the bubble for a single upgrade...it sucks. Its not fun. Its not engaging. There is literally NOTHING enjoyable about this. Once we make the journey once, we should gain the ability to unlock this stuff IN OUR SHIPS.

-Give us materials storage and transfer. No one can "abuse" this. Beyond stocking up large amounts of a resource. Which we NEED to be able to do. Forcing fighter pilots to risk their accumulated Mats every bounty hunt is intelligence insulting. Its punishing us for playing your game, by trying to introduce an artificial risk that shouldnt exist in order to arbitrarily lengthen our grind because you mistakenly think its in your best interest financially to do so. Knock it off, unless you're planning ahead for free to play and booster sales (And you probably ARE) then there is NO reason to do stuff like this.

-Make all discovered recipes from unlocked engineers available in a menu, in our ship. The constant need to alt+tab out of your game to third party tools is annoying at best, and insulting at worst. It does not speak well of your team of developers, that basic inventory and resource management tools were not introduced alongside your collectathon expansion. This is basic stuff found in all of the games you shamelessly copy and pasted your crafting from. The least you could do is make yourselves look at least as qualified as those other dev teams by lifting their ENTIRE system, as opposed to half of it.

Please fix at least this. If you wont make an Engineer system that makes sense in this universe (and you demonstrably will not, obviously) then at least make this one tolerable by restoring the truth behind the no longer valid "play your way" mantra.
 
I would be happy if we just had a way to STORE the Engineer commodities the same way we can with Materials and Data. I come across pretty much all the various Engineer commodities completing missions and just finding them here and there. Having to throw those away all the time to change ships and stuff like that always feels like an incredible waste!
 
I agree I would like a method to keep the commodities I collect even when changing my selected ship it gets really tiring after a while
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
I disagree with many of the points in the OP - therefore it's not a set of proposals that "we can all agree on".... :)
 
I disagree with many of the points in the OP - therefore it's not a set of proposals that "we can all agree on".... :)

Yep, same here. Engineers modifications should not be easy, or else it's not rewarding.

It's already not really difficult to obtain upgrades. Time consuming yes.
 
I'd be happy with something like this, maybe 100 slots at each engineer for mats/data/components.

I would be happy if we just had a way to STORE the Engineer commodities the same way we can with Materials and Data. I come across pretty much all the various Engineer commodities completing missions and just finding them here and there. Having to throw those away all the time to change ships and stuff like that always feels like an incredible waste!
 
Agreed it shouldn't be easy as the high level mods are increasing ship and weapon performance by significant amounts, however I agree that engineering commodity storage (100 max) should be in game as the current set up makes small ship modding a bit of a pain, also an increase in mat/data storage would be welcome especially for miners.
 
-ALL Materials are buyable on the market. Whatever economic type it makes sense for these materials to show up, they are. In reasonable numbers, vis a vis what we need to craft items. NOT in ones and twos.

-ALL materials are available by playing "our" way. NO MATTER WHICH WAY THAT IS. No one should be FORCED to mine, or trade, or hunt bounties, to get a certain type of material.

I'd say either of those points would suffice. Either all materials stop being so goddamn specific (like, right now I am grinding for configurable components, which only spawn - rarely - from a few specific ship types but only when spawned as a specific NPC archetype, i.e. the same ship type won't drop it if the NPC is of a different archetype, and NPCs of the same archetype but in different ships don't drop them, either), or we should be able to buy them.

-Pin an unlimited number of recipes. Because it makes ZERO sense that we cannot do this. Literally none. Fix it.

-Make all discovered recipes from unlocked engineers available in a menu, in our ship. The constant need to alt+tab out of your game to third party tools is annoying at best, and insulting at worst. It does not speak well of your team of developers, that basic inventory and resource management tools were not introduced alongside your collectathon expansion. This is basic stuff found in all of the games you shamelessly copy and pasted your crafting from. The least you could do is make yourselves look at least as qualified as those other dev teams by lifting their ENTIRE system, as opposed to half of it.

I think the entirely "pin blueprints" system is wrong. Imho we should have a UI with all blueprints available from all engineers we know (even the ones we haven't unlocked yet, and also the blueprint grades we haven't yet got the reputation for - if you are invited by the engineer, you know the blueprint) and then let us mark blueprints as favourites. Then any material or commodity that is part of any of our favourited blueprints is marked everywhere in the UI in blue instead of white, this includes the contacts panel, the name in the HUD, in the mission rewards etc.

Also, please show how many of a material we already have next to their name, e.g. "Iron (20)".

-Let us craft the upgrades in our ships, and apply them in ANY station. Making us fly halfway across the bubble for a single upgrade...it sucks. Its not fun. Its not engaging. There is literally NOTHING enjoyable about this. Once we make the journey once, we should gain the ability to unlock this stuff IN OUR SHIPS.

I disagree here. It's a good idea that there are specific places where you get to do the modifications.

-Give us materials storage and transfer. No one can "abuse" this. Beyond stocking up large amounts of a resource. Which we NEED to be able to do. Forcing fighter pilots to risk their accumulated Mats every bounty hunt is intelligence insulting. Its punishing us for playing your game, by trying to introduce an artificial risk that shouldnt exist in order to arbitrarily lengthen our grind because you mistakenly think its in your best interest financially to do so. Knock it off, unless you're planning ahead for free to play and booster sales (And you probably ARE) then there is NO reason to do stuff like this.

I think you mean commodities there, not materials. I am still of the opinion all engineer commodities should be changed into materials so that smaller ships with no room to spare for cargo space can also participate.
 
-ALL materials are available by playing "our" way. NO MATTER WHICH WAY THAT IS. No one should be FORCED to mine, or trade, or hunt bounties, to get a certain type of material.

I think the way it was designed shows FD intended to make people leave their usual paths and I think that's not a bad idea. I got to experience activities I hadn't in over 2000 hours of playtime prior to that and some were better than expected whilst some were even more awful than I feared.

E.g. I hated doing stuff in the SRV and spending an afternoon (successfully) hunting for arsenic for G5 FSD confirmed that. I still don't feel forced to do SRV stuff - it just means no G5 overcharged guns etc... for me. I can live with that.

-Pin an unlimited number of recipes. Because it makes ZERO sense that we cannot do this. Literally none. Fix it.

I agree in theory, because the information should be accessible from within the game. However even if FD did that, I'd most likely still use inara to look them up. EDs GUI isn't suited to present a huge number of information at once.

-Give us materials storage and transfer. No one can "abuse" this. Beyond stocking up large amounts of a resource. Which we NEED to be able to do. Forcing fighter pilots to risk their accumulated Mats every bounty hunt is intelligence insulting.

Assuming you mean commodities, I tend to agree. Imho commodities shouldn't have been used in blueprints in the first place. I tend to switch ships a lot and as soon as I'm loaded with a certain type of mission commodity, it limits me to big ships as the lightweight ones don't have the cargo space and I feel every ton when flying them.

I'm surprised you didn't mention the rare prerequisites. I did the Kamitra Cigar and Fujin Tea grinds today and whilst they're easy to do, they're just plain bad gameplay. Fly to Fujin, buy 5 Tea, alt-tab out and wait for the next 5 ton spawn, deliver to Broo. Rinse and repeat 5 times. That's just awful.
 
-ALL Materials are buyable on the market. Whatever economic type it makes sense for these materials to show up, they are. In reasonable numbers, vis a vis what we need to craft items. NOT in ones and twos.

+1. I couldn't agree more. And as a nice side effect, it would make this part of the game believable. I feel like a broken record but I'll state again, making some common commodities able to be purchased, but others like Sulphur and Nickel not, is careless and sloppy game design. W.t.f were the designers thinking?

The annoying part is that FD probably can't backtrack and do this now, since it would cause uproar from the players who have spent the hundreds of hours rrequired to jump through the (extremely unrealistic) hoops. FD have probably backed themselves into a corner through sloppy, unrealistic game design.

-Give us materials storage and transfer. No one can "abuse" this. Beyond stocking up large amounts of a resource. Which we NEED to be able to do. Forcing fighter pilots to risk their accumulated Mats every bounty hunt is intelligence insulting. Its punishing us for playing your game, by trying to introduce an artificial risk that shouldnt exist in order to arbitrarily lengthen our grind because you mistakenly think its in your best interest financially to do so. Knock it off, unless you're planning ahead for free to play and booster sales (And you probably ARE) then there is NO reason to do stuff like this.

+1. I assume lack of proper storage is something every non-casual player is frustrated about. We've all seen this requested so many times... and it's still totally relevant. A player can have 1 billion credits, but apparently they can't buy a storage unit anywhere in the galaxy?
 
Honestly, I too would just like the ability to store our engineering commodities along with our materials and data at stations or even just engineer locations.

However I would really like the ability to store quite a bit of each. Why not allow us to pay for storage and to increase storage? I'd even be ok if it weren't a one time payment but rent that I had to pay.
 
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You title is incorrect.

I don't agree.

There's a few intentional consequences of engineering:

1. Cash is not king. You can not get whatever you want just by having enough cash.
2. Multi-role is not just punished. It's harder to learn how to do lots of things well instead of just one thing well. With just cash for everything multi-rolers are punished with no reward. Engineering gives them a reward by providing them with a greater diversity and level of engineering upgrades.

Have everything possible by cash and you hurt multirole players and those without great sums of cash. Some people get hurt by your proposal, it's not just something we can all agree on.
 
Caveat: This post assumes the materials grind is here to stay. Not because I like it - I dont - but because Frontier seems intent on grind.

Fine. Its here. Lets make it tolerable, instead of terrible. Here is how:

-ALL Materials are buyable on the market. Whatever economic type it makes sense for these materials to show up, they are. In reasonable numbers, vis a vis what we need to craft items. NOT in ones and twos.

-ALL materials are available by playing "our" way. NO MATTER WHICH WAY THAT IS. No one should be FORCED to mine, or trade, or hunt bounties, to get a certain type of material.

Elite was sold to players on the basis of "Play your way." And it stayed that way for a year. Then, Engineers hit, and the game became "Play your way...and miss out on an entire expansion worth of content. OR, play the way we TELL YOU TO, and you can maybe see a bit of that content after all.

This is bad. It pushes people away from the game. It burns people out. No one wants this - not the players, who want to enjoy Elite. Not the devs, who need players engaged and happy in order to make money.

-Pin an unlimited number of recipes. Because it makes ZERO sense that we cannot do this. Literally none. Fix it.

-Let us craft the upgrades in our ships, and apply them in ANY station. Making us fly halfway across the bubble for a single upgrade...it sucks. Its not fun. Its not engaging. There is literally NOTHING enjoyable about this. Once we make the journey once, we should gain the ability to unlock this stuff IN OUR SHIPS.

-Give us materials storage and transfer. No one can "abuse" this. Beyond stocking up large amounts of a resource. Which we NEED to be able to do. Forcing fighter pilots to risk their accumulated Mats every bounty hunt is intelligence insulting. Its punishing us for playing your game, by trying to introduce an artificial risk that shouldnt exist in order to arbitrarily lengthen our grind because you mistakenly think its in your best interest financially to do so. Knock it off, unless you're planning ahead for free to play and booster sales (And you probably ARE) then there is NO reason to do stuff like this.

-Make all discovered recipes from unlocked engineers available in a menu, in our ship. The constant need to alt+tab out of your game to third party tools is annoying at best, and insulting at worst. It does not speak well of your team of developers, that basic inventory and resource management tools were not introduced alongside your collectathon expansion. This is basic stuff found in all of the games you shamelessly copy and pasted your crafting from. The least you could do is make yourselves look at least as qualified as those other dev teams by lifting their ENTIRE system, as opposed to half of it.

Please fix at least this. If you wont make an Engineer system that makes sense in this universe (and you demonstrably will not, obviously) then at least make this one tolerable by restoring the truth behind the no longer valid "play your way" mantra.

I disagree on almost all of these points. I have yet to hear of anyone quitting because engineers were added to the game yet so I don't know where you are getting that.


Also "play your way" does not entitle you to what ever you want because reasons...

It means that you have the option to role play various kinds of "life styles" like being a criminal, bounty hunter, explorer, or miner ect ect.

Them making things not cost credits is brilliant as there is way to many avenues still where obtaining credits is trivial. It was a good move on their part.
 
I don't agree with a few of your points, especially being able to buy the materials. Materials are their own currency, it's designed that way for a reason. I think FDev should consider mat trading though, as proposed by another CMDR, at least that way if I have 5 rare mats I got by doing something I enjoy, I can trade them for rare mats you only get by doing something I don't enjoy. IDK how much work that would be to implement but I have a feeling it would be a lot.

I do think we should have commodity storage. I also agree that there should be more in-game tools to manage and plan your upgrades. I use a combination of Inara and the EDEngineers tool (which is awesome) but ideally this should be in-game.

As for being able to craft them in our ship at any time - come on man, I actually want to play the game i.e. fly my ship.
 
For me, the Engineers breaks immersion on so many levels that I find it hard to even start the game any more. Once to try new Saitek X52 in the last month, flew for 5 minutes to nearest station, looked half heartedly at requirements for next upgrade (sigh), found no missions on mission board (extra sigh), didn't even look at ship launched fighters and logged out. Time before was a few months back. Game is just not going my way right now...

Re: Immersion

1. I blow up a ship to find a component that is part of the ship, so it is presumably manufactured somewhere, but I can't buy them from the manufacturer...
2. Same for materials that make up ships themselves. Instead of finding a nice Arsenic mining facility (or whatever materiel) I have to get the stuff myself...

Presumably the people that like this mechanic also like having to go to the bank, withdraw another countries currency (equivalent to materials / commodities) to pay for something online in another country, then fly to said country to get the item(Engineers workshops), only to find it doesn't fit (RNG analogy)... Clearly the ED universe hasn't got PayPal or FedEx yet...except for entire ships and magically reappearing Engineered components after ship destruction (see what I mean about inconsistency?)

Re the OP, I like the suggestions of buying the mats and commodities, but disagree with fit out. Re the multi currency problem: Why have more than one currency in game? Whats the advantage?

Also:
"Also "play your way" does not entitle you to what ever you want because reasons..."
This should imply that we can do things multiple ways. Can I buy Arsenic (or whatever commodity / material) because I hate driving the buggy? Nope, you gotta drive the buggy. So "Play your way" quickly becomes "You must play the game our way, you have no say"
 
There's a few intentional consequences of engineering:

1. Cash is not king. You can not get whatever you want just by having enough cash.
2. Multi-role is not just punished. It's harder to learn how to do lots of things well instead of just one thing well. With just cash for everything multi-rolers are punished with no reward. Engineering gives them a reward by providing them with a greater diversity and level of engineering upgrades.

Have everything possible by cash and you hurt multirole players and those without great sums of cash. Some people get hurt by your proposal, it's not just something we can all agree on.

1. Money is an equivalent of time. Whether you spend 10 hours to collect materials or 10 hours to earn credits, if the proceeds go to an engineer upgrade, the outcome is the same. But with money, it gives the players all the freedom with regards to how to acquire it, whereas most materials force specific play styles and activities, which almost inevitably leads to situations where you either end up doing something you find no enjoyment in, or where you stop participating in the grind.

2. As someone heavily into multi-role ships right from the start of the game, I can tell you that when there was only money that you needed for ships and equipment, I felt not punished at all. Whether someone has multiple specialized ships or a few (or even just one) general purpose ship is primarily a matter of taste. Also, I could reverse this argument and claim that the way engineers work now punishes non-multi-role players; why is that acceptable then?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
1. Money is an equivalent of time. Whether you spend 10 hours to collect materials or 10 hours to earn credits, if the proceeds go to an engineer upgrade, the outcome is the same. But with money, it gives the players all the freedom with regards to how to acquire it, whereas most materials force specific play styles and activities, which almost inevitably leads to situations where you either end up doing something you find no enjoyment in, or where you stop participating in the grind.

Given that many players have more credits than they know what to do with, equating collecting materials to earning credits is a false comparison - those players already have ubiquitous (i.e. can buy anything on the market) credits in the bank and there would be no time investment in gaining the engineered modifications.

Time is the levelling device with Engineers.
 
I'm happy for mods not to be easy, but that doesn't mean grindy either. I wish they were more mission based and I also wish they'd get rid of the randomisation. It's nice and all for pve but this game is still multiplayer (sorta). I also think special effects should be separate to mods (or even instead of them) and available to base game players... and storage. I'd like some storage.
 
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