Enhanced guardian plasma and guardian shards

While the modified versions of these weapons are awesome, the unmodified versions are still so bad they are not even worth unlocking. It would be really cool to have a community goal, perhaps from Ram Tah, to enhance these weapons into a place somewhere between ax weapons and modified weapons.

The biggest problem of the plasma charger is it's terrible DPE. It's damage is theoretically reasonable, but because it takes so much energy, it just can't apply that damage. Combine this with its pathetically slow projectile speed, and it becomes almost impossible to use.

It would be cool if it had a better dpe, and if you could charge it for longer. Giving players more leeway and when they launch their shot would allow it to be a lot more useful, even with slower bullets.

The problem with The Shard Cannon is that it is overpowered at short range, but sucks at long ranges. It has a high breach damage, which indicates it was probably meant to make hitting hearts a little bit easier, which could be its role, but the fact that it is so unlikely for a pilot to even hit a heart at anything like a reasonable range makes this challenging at best.

What if Shard cannons were given a small amount of splash? That way each individual bullet would do the same amount of damage, but you would have a much higher chance of hitting with any or multiple bullets on a heart. Perhaps pair this with more ammo, to compensate for missing with most of your shots.

This way, these weapons could fill a niche, between the high skill High reward weapons, and the low skill low reward weapons. Players who have a hard time hitting with Gauss, but want better performance than ax multi cannons, could use Shard cannons instead. And plasma Chargers could serve as a step up from missile racks.

Thoughts?
 
I used to carry Plasma/Gauss mix. Worked fine against Cyclops, I stubborny tried to make it work against Basilisk and with Medusa even I had to admit it was worthless. IMO, the things that make Plasma Charger worthless are the low damage dropoff distance and inadequate armor piercing value. The shot speed is a distant third in that equation. It was satisfying to splash the inteceptors at 2+ km range, but I knew it did little actual damage. I guess there could be more projectile speed and power, but it's important that the damage gets through when you do hit.

I think the Plasma Charger is a good candidate for a Huge variant. Even if there was no other enhancements at all, the logical continuation of the size progression would bring the AP to somewhere halfway decent, at least. Improvements would be better, but that would at least be something.

Shard seems to me like it was supposed to be sort of jack of all trades combined to high risk/high yield. For that it might be better if it did hit hearts a little better. I've always suggested it should have some limited capacity to hit Thargons as well.
 
I used to carry Plasma/Gauss mix. Worked fine against Cyclops, I stubborny tried to make it work against Basilisk and with Medusa even I had to admit it was worthless. IMO, the things that make Plasma Charger worthless are the low damage dropoff distance and inadequate armor piercing value. The shot speed is a distant third in that equation. It was satisfying to splash the inteceptors at 2+ km range, but I knew it did little actual damage. I guess there could be more projectile speed and power, but it's important that the damage gets through when you do hit.

I think the Plasma Charger is a good candidate for a Huge variant. Even if there was no other enhancements at all, the logical continuation of the size progression would bring the AP to somewhere halfway decent, at least. Improvements would be better, but that would at least be something.

Shard seems to me like it was supposed to be sort of jack of all trades combined to high risk/high yield. For that it might be better if it did hit hearts a little better. I've always suggested it should have some limited capacity to hit Thargons as well.

I like those ideas, especially letting shards hit thargons. I'm not sure how easy that would be to code; it's not something I think you could easily do with just the basic engineering modifications, I wouldn't think. If it were possible that'd be a great option though.
Boosting the falloff distance sounds like a reasonable idea, too. It would still be hard to hit at that range, but at least it would do something if you did. It would be sorta like Cannons, with their equal falloff distance and range.

So something like this, maybe:

Enhanced Guardian Plasma Charger
+200% Minimum Falloff Distance
-50% Distributor Draw
(and, if possible)
+200% Charge Time/Multiplier(can charge up for 5.4 seconds and 51x damage, instead of 1.8 seconds and 17x damage)

Enhanced Guardian Shard Cannon
+High Yield Shell Experimental
+100% Ammo Capacity
(and, if possible)
Damages Thargons
 
Salvation: "am i a joke to u??
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u dont know the power of the dark salvation side. the pre-engineer shard is awesome, 6000 shot speed+reduced spread+3km range= easy heard snipe+shard level dmg+super easy distributor management. plasma is the same story, 6000 shoot speed is almost hit scan
 
The unmodified shards with normal ammo are already perfect niche weapons for killing swathes cyclops interceptors.

Source: https://youtu.be/eDxAgLLAWQk


The above video looks like I fly terribly. Truth is, guardian shard cannons are so good at the task I'm flying one handed and eating breakfast while my kids finish getting around for school.
Virtually anything can kill a cyclops. The other day I did one in a completely unengineered FAS with AX weapons just for fun and because it's easy.

The sad truth is, with the recent enhanced versions of AX multicannons, it's probably quite a bit easier to just use ax multis than a shard cannon. The much higher projectile speed and improved damage means you'll almost always kill the heart faster.
 
u dont know the power of the dark salvation side. the pre-engineer shard is awesome, 6000 shot speed+reduced spread+3km range= easy heard snipe+shard level dmg+super easy distributor management. plasma is the same story, 6000 shoot speed is almost hit scan
Everyone knows the Salvation variants are top of the line. This thread, however, is about saving the regular models from obscurity.
 
Now that I have recalled more of my old suggestions of the matter, I say this: The intention of the design on the original AX weapons seemed to be specialization. Missiles to exert the hearts, MC to destroy them, Flak to deal with the swarm. With the Guardian weapon it seems like the Plasma was intended to be the exerter and Gauss was to be the one to pick off the hearts. Shard was perhaps meant to be the weapon that can do both if you risk dangerously close ranges. How it actually turned out was that Gauss ended up being superior at exerting too because of consistent damage and the best AP value. Other Guardian weapons were clearly inferior against the lesser variant Interceptors, and worthless against the greater chiefly because of the crazy hardness they have, I suspect.

The Salvation mods fixed these weapons chiefly by pretty much turning them to different kinds of Gausses. This works, but it's a bit samey. This is why I wouldn't increase shot speed dramatically for possible enhanced versions. I would prefer that the best exerter and the best heart sniper in the category were separate weapons. Shard would be in between, but the added anti-Thargon ability would increase the 'jack of all trades' feel of the weapon. Also jury is still out on the enhanced Human AX weapons. We'll see what the dynamic will be with them.
 
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Also jury is still out on the enhanced Human AX weapons. We'll see what the dynamic will be with them.
The Enhanced Missiles feel great: the audible thud of the launch combined with the impact animations certainly make you feel like they did something substantial. Likewise the Enhanced MCs give a very satisfying Daka'Daka feel. The improvement on shot speed is very noticeable and contributes strongly to the "I'm having an effect" feel. I'm sure the addition of Fixed Missiles and Gimbled MCs will further improve the overall feel: Pretty sure I will be able to hit more reliably with the Fixed missiles than the AI Turret bot. The problem remains AP. Against Scouts and Cyclopes, I think I'd rather have the new Enhanced AX weapons, but against anything bigger and we're right back to Gauss/Salvation Weapons.

If scanning is going to be a thing in AX combat, we need a better one. My preference is an Experimental modification on the Core Sensor module with a 500m range and a 2 second scan time.

As for the "Legacy" Guardian weapons, something needs to be done to address their fatal flaws:

Guardian Plasma Chargers
Plasma AP and shot speed should scale with Charge Time. Apply 1 grade of "Focused" per 0.6 seconds of charging to a cap of 1.8 Seconds / Grade 3. That'd give a Medium PC an AP of 144 and a shot speed of 2,016 m/s on a full charge.

Guardian Shard Cannons
Allowing Shards to effectively damage Thargons would be an interesting multi-role usage. Shards would remain relatively effective against scouts and Cyclopes. Against larger interceptors you'd probably use the Shards in an anti-thargon role, and as a way to deplete Interceptor shields (since AP is irrelevant vs. shields and the larger shield hit-box slightly mitigates the Shard Cannon's spread issues).

Along with this, the AX weapon limit should be relaxed/eliminated. For Human AX weapons, outright elimination would be the best choice. For Guardian weapons, increasing the limit by 2 if you've got a Guardian Powerplant installed would be my preferred solution.

Availability of Hardpoints and power issues would prevent any of these changes from materially upsetting existing meta-builds, but it would create niches for most of the existing AX weapons.
 
The Enhanced Missiles feel great: the audible thud of the launch combined with the impact animations certainly make you feel like they did something substantial. Likewise the Enhanced MCs give a very satisfying Daka'Daka feel. The improvement on shot speed is very noticeable and contributes strongly to the "I'm having an effect" feel. I'm sure the addition of Fixed Missiles and Gimbled MCs will further improve the overall feel: Pretty sure I will be able to hit more reliably with the Fixed missiles than the AI Turret bot. The problem remains AP. Against Scouts and Cyclopes, I think I'd rather have the new Enhanced AX weapons, but against anything bigger and we're right back to Gauss/Salvation Weapons.

If scanning is going to be a thing in AX combat, we need a better one. My preference is an Experimental modification on the Core Sensor module with a 500m range and a 2 second scan time.
I believe that some sort of scanner enhancement is coming eventually, and it'll be hard to see the final impact of the Enhanced Aegis weapons before it does. Mainly I'm interested of seeing how much people will just boat Multi-Cannons vs some mixes with missiles or even Guardian weapons.
As for the "Legacy" Guardian weapons, something needs to be done to address their fatal flaws:

Guardian Plasma Chargers
Plasma AP and shot speed should scale with Charge Time. Apply 1 grade of "Focused" per 0.6 seconds of charging to a cap of 1.8 Seconds / Grade 3. That'd give a Medium PC an AP of 144 and a shot speed of 2,016 m/s on a full charge.
That is an interesting idea, but the shot speed varying like that would make aiming the weapons pretty messy. The lead dropping as you charge the weapon would confuse many people. That being said, if there was one engineering mod I would apply to PCs, it'd be focused. It increases all the things I find lacking: AP, effective range and even shot speed. Also if there was some magical engineer experimental that would turn part of regular weapon's damage to AX, a Plasma Accelerator with Focused would be pretty tempting to me: 220 armor piercing, 4000 meters of full damage range, and respectable shot speed of 1750 m/s.

That segways me to comparing Plasma Chargers with Plasma Accelerators. PCs have AP of 65/80/95 for small/medium/large, 89/110 for the Salvation variant. For PAs it's 100 regardless of side. PC's damage dropoff starts at 1000m, while PA has 2000m range for full damage. PC does have better shot speed, 1200 vs 875, the unique charging mechanism, very nice ammo situation and that weird multicrew only turret, but otherwise I wish PC would be more like PA.
Guardian Shard Cannons
Allowing Shards to effectively damage Thargons would be an interesting multi-role usage. Shards would remain relatively effective against scouts and Cyclopes. Against larger interceptors you'd probably use the Shards in an anti-thargon role, and as a way to deplete Interceptor shields (since AP is irrelevant vs. shields and the larger shield hit-box slightly mitigates the Shard Cannon's spread issues).
The half of Shard Cannon damage that isn't AX is Thermal which makes it a pretty nice shield depleter if one's build can't fit a beam laser, so you have a point there. Shard also has that size AP progression, but it feels less odd to me because Frags have it too. Still makes it real hard to compete with 140/140 AP Gauss.

Also, if there would be enhanced Guardian weapons, there might also be an enhanced Gauss too. What would that look like? Gauss is already so great that its Salvation variant is a downgrade, or a situational sidegrade at best. Can't enhance perfection. Maybe a slight ammo boost wouldn't be too OP. Or perhaps another sidegrade: Much more ammo, but less hull damage in same proportion, but try to keep the damage to the hearts the same. This would be to encourage using other weapons to exert and Gauss just for the hearts.
 
My only concern is avoiding excessive overlap with the modified plasma chargers and shards. Those should remain the best options, on par with gauss, so the others can't be buffed QUITE that far.

That's why I'd be inclined to boost tertiary stats like DPE and charge time on the enhanced variants, as those would allow them to be useful in a distinct way without directly outcompeting the modified versions.
 
I actually think we’re pretty good for weapons … it’s the defence side we’re lacking on.

- There needs be some serious research into caustic resistance options … perhaps pre-engineered Guardian HRPs with Heavy Duty and an additional 5% caustic resist via a pre-applied experimental, with that experimental also available for standard engineered HRPs for folks that don’t have the guardian unlocks

- AX Point defence for the caustic missiles: they’re not fast so surely it’s just a question of the right ammo?

- Maybe an improved anti-swarm weapon for those of us who can’t fly backwards in FAOFF whilst navigating in 3 directions and still shooting straight. 😂
 
I actually think we’re pretty good for weapons … it’s the defence side we’re lacking on.

- There needs be some serious research into caustic resistance options … perhaps pre-engineered Guardian HRPs with Heavy Duty and an additional 5% caustic resist via a pre-applied experimental, with that experimental also available for standard engineered HRPs for folks that don’t have the guardian unlocks

- AX Point defence for the caustic missiles: they’re not fast so surely it’s just a question of the right ammo?

- Maybe an improved anti-swarm weapon for those of us who can’t fly backwards in FAOFF whilst navigating in 3 directions and still shooting straight. 😂
Meta Alloys could use a buff for sure. Right now they're basically only good when compared to completely unengineered hull reinforcements. Even G1 engineering beats them completely. Guardian Hull Reinforcements are actually very well balanced already, though AXI will never admit it. If you take a meta Chieftain, for example, and swap out all the HRPs for GHRPs, you'll not only have 16% more module integrity, you'll also have more hull after using four repair limpets. The only real change they could do is make them protect you from thargon missiles as well, and MAYBE a tiny buff to the higher grades; G5 tends to be a lot weaker because it still only gives 5% caustic resistance. If they gave a bonus 0.3% caustic resistance per grade, so the G5 had 6.5% instead of 5%, they'd be awesome.


Flak I also agree with. Basically the only way to use Flak atm is to reverski, because it almost doubles its effective speed and keeps the swarm stable. Trying to flak a swarm that isn't targeting/chasing you is almost impossible. An enhanced flak with increased projectile speed(maybe 1250 like the missiles) would honestly be an absolutely awesome addition. AX Point defense is a tricky one though. Too powerful and it'll make flak useless, too weak and it might as well not exist. Honestly, I feel like just having better flak would mostly solve this issue by allowing players to kill the swarm more effectively.

But ultimately it's just about making the useless stuff useful. There's no point having content nobody uses!
 
By the way, hull and module reinforcements should not be artificially limited to maximum size 5. And we need AX shield generator.
 
That is an interesting idea, but the shot speed varying like that would make aiming the weapons pretty messy. The lead dropping as you charge the weapon would confuse many people. That being said, if there was one engineering mod I would apply to PCs, it'd be focused. It increases all the things I find lacking: AP, effective range and even shot speed.
Could just buff baseline shot speed and have AP linked to charge time. I think @DemiserofD suggested something similar. A Class 3 stock PC should outclass a Salvation class 2.
 
Also, if there would be enhanced Guardian weapons, there might also be an enhanced Gauss too. What would that look like? Gauss is already so great that its Salvation variant is a downgrade, or a situational sidegrade at best. Can't enhance perfection. Maybe a slight ammo boost wouldn't be too OP. Or perhaps another sidegrade: Much more ammo, but less hull damage in same proportion, but try to keep the damage to the hearts the same. This would be to encourage using other weapons to exert and Gauss just for the hearts.
I think Gauss (and Rails) are as good as they can realistically get. The only thing I’d add is Large and Huge variants where a large fires 3 shots each equivalent to Class 1/small and the huge fires 3 shots each equivalent to a Class 2 medium. Thermal and power scaled linearly. The Burst fire would take care of one-shotting modules and thermal/power consumption would limit the effective number of hardpoints.
 
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That segways me to comparing Plasma Chargers with Plasma Accelerators. PCs have AP of 65/80/95 for small/medium/large, 89/110 for the Salvation variant. For PAs it's 100 regardless of side. PC's damage dropoff starts at 1000m, while PA has 2000m range for full damage. PC does have better shot speed, 1200 vs 875, the unique charging mechanism, very nice ammo situation and that weird multicrew only turret, but otherwise I wish PC would be more like PA.
They should have made AX weapons an experimental modification applied to the existing base weapons.
 
My only concern is avoiding excessive overlap with the modified plasma chargers and shards. Those should remain the best options, on par with gauss, so the others can't be buffed QUITE that far.

That's why I'd be inclined to boost tertiary stats like DPE and charge time on the enhanced variants, as those would allow them to be useful in a distinct way without directly outcompeting the modified versions.
I think the modified variants have the crazy shot speed that allow them to target hearts as well as the gauss (with trailing gunsights at least). As long as enhanced variants don't go really crazy with shot speed, they'll always have that. You do have a point, but I think at least a hypothetical Huge variant could match or exceed Medium Salvation when it comes to damage.

As for defences: I think meta-alloy hull reinforcement should have been the one with best caustic resistance. Give Guardian HR some other benefit, like better energy resistance. I also agree with the better resistance with bigger modules idea. Currently the best way to use them is to put one or two to the smallest slots and use heavy duty engineered for the bigger ones.

Anti-Swarm: Yes, the flak is really hard to use except in reverski with the swarm coming at you. I occasionally get some deflection shots at CZs, but it's not common enough to matter. Shot speed would help and I also wouldn't mind a large variant with just more ammo. Not that it isn't cheap and fast to synthesise. My idea of a AX point defence would slowly pick off Thargons in the swarm and only at close distance where the swarm will shoot back. Maybe you could match the flak efficiency by having many of them, but that would use up many utility slots. My idea for shard's anti-swarm capacity is similar: Close range and not as good as a good flak hit unless you have many of them.

The new materials that can be found inside Maelsroms sound like we might be getting some new defensive options, but we'll have to wait and see with those. Same with grelics. I suspect those will be used to create Guardian options that will be immune to the corrosive enviroment, but no way of knowing that yet.
 
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