General / Off-Topic EU endorses suppression and police brutality??

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lysan

lysan
I had a small talk with a friend of mine yesterday, and one of the subjects was what the heck is going one in Spain?
As I'm not spanish, nor do I live in spain I asked my friend who are from spain, what is all the fuss about?

So basically and if i'm off my reservation here please correct me as I don't want to spread false news, Catalonia want to be free of spanish rule of law, and they had scheduled a day to vote for a referendum if they should stay of get independence.

The short version is the Madrid didn't like that, and send in the Police to crack up the repels and get "law and order back" so to speak. That didn't end well, and much violence followed due to their actions.

Now comes the interresting part, Commission First Vice President Frans Timmermans praised the police and pronounced it as "proportional use of force". I saw a few videos from that "incident" and I would not call it that, more like a government who went on a rampage mission, but I was not there and could be wrong.

So could anyone explain what is actually going on, and why try to escalade it, sure this is not going to go away any day soon.
Smells to me as there could be a spanish version of the IRA in the molding pot?
 

FuzzySpider

FuzzySpider
No the EU doesn't.

Whoever told you that has been getting their information from the kind of sources intended to keep you misinformed.

The EU tries to interfere in the business of nation states as little as possible. This as Spanish issue, not an EU issue.
 

lysan

lysan
FuzzySpider said:
No the EU doesn't.

Whoever told you that has been getting their information from the kind of sources intended to keep you misinformed.

The EU tries to interfere in the business of nation states as little as possible. This as Spanish issue, not an EU issue.
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I just goggled it, and this popped up, but I want to get to the right information that is why I ask, not pushing an agenda here.

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-defends-use-of-proportionate-force-in-catalonia/

“The regional government of Catalonia has chosen to ignore the law in organizing the referendum of last Sunday,” he said.

Perhaps most strikingly, Timmermans defended the use of force by the Spanish police on Sunday. The police action resulted in jarring images of voters, including women and elderly citizens, being dragged away from polling stations — a stunning scene of unrest in a large Western democracy.
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I find this disturbing on so many levels I don't know where to start.
 
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Prince Thrakkath

P
Lysander lysan said:
I just goggled it, and this popped up, but I want to get to the right information that is why I ask, not pushing an agenda here.

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-defends-use-of-proportionate-force-in-catalonia/



I find this disturbing on so many levels I don't know where to start.
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Lets put it this way! If it was a country in the middle-east we would have to send troops in and overthrow its leader along with taking in all refugees whether hostile or not:) EU commission/NATO is a fraud along with their doctrine of selective humanitarian interventions and selective interpretations of democracy and freedom of assembly/speech. The leader of Spain could easily have let the vote happen peacefully and challenged results in courts, instead he chose to batter women old people and children.
 
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lysan

lysan
Prince Thrakkath said:
Lets put it this way! If it was a country in the middle-east we would have to send troops in and overthrow its leader along with taking in all refugees whether hostile or not:) EU commission/NATO is a fraud along with their doctrine of selective humanitarian interventions and selective interpretations of democracy and freedom of assembly/speech. The leader of Spain could easily have let the vote happen peacefully and challenged results in courts, instead he chose to batter women old people and children.
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Agree, and that is why I still believe in what I do, explained in another thread.
 

Zenith

Zenith
In terms of modern western democracy, it could be argued that Spain has "only" had the last 40-42 years of elected government.
From 1939-1975, Spain was a dictatorship under General Francisco Franco.
That isn't trying to minimise what happened over last weekend, but to try and put the overall picture into context.
 

FuzzySpider

FuzzySpider
Lysander lysan said:
I just goggled it, and this popped up, but I want to get to the right information that is why I ask, not pushing an agenda here.

http://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-defends-use-of-proportionate-force-in-catalonia/



I find this disturbing on so many levels I don't know where to start.
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That's a pretty poor article. Among other things, Timmermans isn't "Brussels". The closest thing we have to a man in charge is probably Council President Donald Tusk. This is what he said:

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/914857841135177729

Please try to remember the EU has a very different political structure to the USA. Whilst in the USA the federal government wields most of the power, in the EU the individual nation states remain sovereign. Here is the actual statement released by the EU commission explaining their position.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_STATEMENT-17-3626_en.htm

The behaviour of the Spanish government has been utterly dreadful, verging on despotic. The EU can and should do more here. It does have powers to throw a country out of the EU or bring sanctions for behaving this way. The precariousness of the EU brought about by the Polish/Hungary situation has made it lose it's nerve somewhat, and that's disheartening. But that's nowhere near the same as saying they endorse the behaviour of the Spanish government. They really don't.
 

Boomer Kay

B
FuzzySpider said:
The behaviour of the Spanish government has been utterly dreadful, verging on despotic.
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That's the political situation in the EU - local government wise.
That's what you get from authoritarian governments. Always.
eu2012.png

(and police brutality levels where on a quite similar level during the G20 protests in Hamburg with several hundred injured - politics tried to put the blame on a few hundred black block extremists - that's not very helpful - if you represent the state, your first and best skill should be de-escalation).
 
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Nagual

Nagual
The fact the Firefighters had to protect civilians from Police attacks, and formed a line to do so getting themselves attacked by the Police speaks volumes about the attitude of the Spanish Police and Spain's government. It also speaks volumes that other EU member states did not speak out against it. The video footage that is going around is brutal. Restoring law and order my backside, it was blatant Fascism.
 

lysan

lysan
Nagual said:
The fact the Firefighters had to protect civilians from Police attacks, and formed a line to do so getting themselves attacked by the Police speaks volumes about the attitude of the Spanish Police and Spain's government. It also speaks volumes that other EU member states did not speak out against it. The video footage that is going around is brutal. Restoring law and order my backside, it was blatant Fascism.
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As I understand it, and those I've spoken to, this will backfire in the spanish government's head, they are now more determined than ever to get out and get independence.
 

duckofdeath

duckofdeath
Fake news reader, reading news like satan reads the bible... :D
Obviously the EU is not for police brutality. Which you already know.
The EU, like any other democratic congregation is however against a part of a country breaking free without following the laws of the country they're part of. There are legal ways to deal with a secession. This locally held referendum was not that.
And before you're labelling me as a hater, I've lived in Barcelona. I do support Catalonia as a sovereign nation, but they'll have to do it in a real democratic way, not a selective democratic way.
 

racer1

racer1
Prior to the vote I think the polls suggested most Catalans wanted to be part of Spain.

The Catalan nationalists have played their cards very well and the national government very badly ending with the mess you see now.

I wouldn't suggest this forum as a good place to get unbiased info on the matter...
 

racer1

racer1
Boomer Kay said:
That's the political situation in the EU - local government wise.
That's what you get from authoritarian governments. Always.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/images/eu2012.png
(and police brutality levels where on a quite similar level during the G20 protests in Hamburg with several hundred injured - politics tried to put the blame on a few hundred black block extremists - that's not very helpful - if you represent the state, your first and best skill should be de-escalation).
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I have to laugh at your graph in all honesty. Both axes are subjective, how about you add some real authoritarian governments in there like North Korea. Is there any government on the planet that would hit the green square?
 

lysan

lysan
racer1 said:
Prior to the vote I think the polls suggested most Catalans wanted to be part of Spain.

The Catalan nationalists have played their cards very well and the national government very badly ending with the mess you see now.

I wouldn't suggest this forum as a good place to get unbiased info on the matter...
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Where would you suggest to get unbiased information from?
 

Boomer Kay

B
racer1 said:
Both axes are subjective,
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The word you're looking for is "relative".
The placement is done according to the position of the government in regards to policy.

racer1 said:
.. how about you add some real authoritarian governments in there like North Korea.
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And you know how a "real" authoritarian government is because ... ?

racer1 said:
Is there any government on the planet that would hit the green square?
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Many.
But usually on local level, since the idea of a "national state" is so bizarre, it needs authority and police clubbering dissenters into submission to survive. ;P
 
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