Eve IS Elite!

[boringnick]

There's a lot of drama regarding Eve and many people here seem to want to avoid Elite taking any features from that game, BUT What many don't seem to understand is that EvE IS Elite!

It's Elite taken to it's logical conclusions. Look at the latest Elite game in the 90s: First Encounters. You had multiple mining machines (assets), the players were able to change the history of galaxy through the missions and newspapers, the factions were getting fleshed out and if you peeked at the FFE.exe there were hints for an faction-war and features like escort-missions that didn't get implemented due bugs or time constraints.

EvE and X3 are the logical continuations of the Elite-principle. If we would have gotten an Elite 4 in the early 2000s, it's very likely that it would look a lot like Eve or X. That was already obvious by Frontier and FFE. I am quite sad that so many people seem to think the gold standard for the genre should be the 80s original game and adding any social aspects beyond the absolute bare bones or base building is selling out or something, not to mention the over the top drama regarding "griefers" here.

 

[Ghostile]

I'm a bit lost when it comes to the EvE hate here.
Anything that is on EvE is evil and bad and should not be applied to Elite no matter what it is.

It's a miracle they can stand the fact both games happen in space.

But you might be right, EvE is the outcome of Elite in the same way how Borderlands gave birth to Destiny, people liked it enough to have a vision of their own.

 

[Connor Caple]

If they made an offline version of EvE, I'd buy it Spent way too much in subs on that game over 10 years or so.

I was hoping ED might fill that hole, but it does just about everything more clunkily (I made that word and I like it) than EvE, which is a 10 year old game that knows how to do an interface. The X series also have a better understanding of interfaces (well, pre-rebirth anyway, which still needs polish) and smoother gameplay.

I like clicky context menus on things much more than I like tabbing through an antiquated pos computer and stepping up and down through options to get anything done.

My first PC in 1993 worked better than that!

I played Elite in 1984 and it ate my life, through all the "Right On, Commanders". I was surviving on about 3 hours sleep a night and holding down a job - hehe. I got the new game, after following its progress, and I really hoped we'd be getting something more EvE or X3 like by the original Daddy of them all, but ED is just a bit backwards.

The red-headed stepchild of space games, perhaps?

Yes, I'm still playing it, but I can see me shelving it for a month to see if they figure out that technology has moved on a bit...

 

[Katkon]

No, it's not. Sure, they're both set in space, but besides that they have little in common. Consider, for example:

- Scale: couple of thousand systems vs billions
- Flying: point and click in 3rd person vs first person
- Docking: click on station vs requesting docking, getting pad assigned and landing
- Trading: player-controlled commodity prices vs prices set based on player-influenced supply and demand
- Communications: open systen communications vs player-to-player comms

I could go on. The games are technically very different, and neither one is a logical evolution of the other. More importantly, the games' player bases are vastly different (thankfully), and Frontier actually has a moral compass unlike CCP's "anything goes" attitude.

So... no. Both objectively and subjectively speaking. And this is a very good thing.

 

[Im_Lost]

The ONLY similarity is they are set in space. I hope it stays that way.

 

[OVMorat]

No, it's not. Sure, they're both set in space, but besides that they have little in common. Consider, for example:

- Scale: couple of thousand systems vs billions
- Flying: point and click in 3rd person vs first person
- Docking: click on station vs requesting docking, getting pad assigned and landing
- Trading: player-controlled commodity prices vs prices set based on player-influenced supply and demand
- Communications: open systen communications vs player-to-player comms

I could go on. The games are technically very different, and neither one is a logical evolution of the other. More importantly, the games' player bases are vastly different (thankfully), and Frontier actually has a moral compass unlike CCP's "anything goes" attitude.

So... no. Both objectively and subjectively speaking. And this is a very good thing.

Hmm, they are different but I don't think the ways you list are that important.
Scale? I doubt anyone has visited all the systems in EVE, I certainly haven't so the pure number of systems isn't that relevant. The arrangement of chokepoints IS more relevant, but ED does have a single jump-in point per system which was unexpected.
Flying - yes, definitely different.
Trading. Well... I'd just say that the EVE version is flat out better. The ED version is very opaque and frankly not that convincing.
Comms - EVE has open comms, channelised comms, ingame email and voice. I think it has it covered. The annoying thing in EVE is local chat which I hate in busy areas but I like the way it works in wormhole space where characters are only listed if they speak while you're in the system. I wish CCP would adopt that for K space but don't seem to be moving that way.

 

[Stench]

I am a regular online gamer, pretty big on my Battlefield 4, finding that from originally playing Call of Duty. There is a the same situation there where the hate for the others is based upon nothing more than humans being tribal and as an extension of that, anything one game has that makes it into the other is by default (I speak generally of course) reviled by the community.

Not having played EVE however I am in no position to comment on its gubbins, but it makes a lot of logical sense for Elite to evolve by taking on either modified or straight ported features - as may happen the other way around.

One thing I personally feel should not happen is player controlled markets. No. Never. Too many examples of online games have player controlled markets dominated by greed and the players who can afford to put in more hours in a week than a bunch of average players combined.

 

[Mr. Woof]

There's a lot of drama regarding Eve and many people here seem to want to avoid Elite taking any features from that game, BUT What many don't seem to understand is that EvE IS Elite!

It's Elite taken to it's logical conclusions. Look at the latest Elite game in the 90s: First Encounters. You had multiple mining machines (assets), the players were able to change the history of galaxy through the missions and newspapers, the factions were getting fleshed out and if you peeked at the FFE.exe there were hints for an faction-war and features like escort-missions that didn't get implemented due bugs or time constraints.

EvE and X3 are the logical continuations of the Elite-principle. If we would have gotten an Elite 4 in the early 2000s, it's very likely that it would look a lot like Eve or X. That was already obvious by Frontier and FFE. I am quite sad that so many people seem to think the gold standard for the genre should be the 80s original game and adding any social aspects beyond the absolute bare bones or base building is selling out or something, not to mention the over the top drama regarding "griefers" here.

Good point. Well let's see how many of the lost First Encounter features were are going to see in ED in the future. I'd love to see escort or strike missions.

I'm a bit lost when it comes to the EvE hate here.
Anything that is on EvE is evil and bad and should not be applied to Elite no matter what it is.

It's a miracle they can stand the fact both games happen in space.

But you might be right, EvE is the outcome of Elite in the same way how Borderlands gave birth to Destiny, people liked it enough to have a vision of their own.

I believe that kind of rivalry is natural to a certain degree because we people prefer to think in absolutes since it gives us security to know what is good, and waht is right, and what is best. But it is also very shortsighted. In fact it is the kind of thinking religious wars started from ...
After all in every field more progress has always been made by improving upon something that was already there, and not essentially by inventing something completely new. So relying on and bringing together ideas that have been around for a while is not only smart, it's essential - at least as long as it means you don't just go around stealing ideas and claiming them to be your own.

 

[sun_tzu]

Eve developed over time organically into what it is now...
I love the scams / heists... The real world money that can be lost and the fact that as an mmo it has developed in ways that could not have been predicted at launch.
I hope over time elite will develop organically as well and whilst that may incorporate elements of eve like ideas it's the completely new and unplanned elements i am looking forward to.

For now I'm enjoying exploring and picking up the odd mission and trying out new ships and load outs for them.

 

[MightyDWC]

When this game (if it ever) gets POS's and we have TS servers with 1000 people in them about to attack said POS for control of an area THEN it will start to be like EVE.

 

[Hexen]

Very good post OP! Very good one!

 

[boringnick]

No, it's not. Sure, they're both set in space, but besides that they have little in common. Consider, for example:

- Scale: couple of thousand systems vs billions
- Flying: point and click in 3rd person vs first person
- Docking: click on station vs requesting docking, getting pad assigned and landing
- Trading: player-controlled commodity prices vs prices set based on player-influenced supply and demand
- Communications: open systen communications vs player-to-player comms

Have you played Frontier and First Encounters? The auto-pilot and flying was very similiar to Eve: Set course through auto-pilot and press button. Sure, you could fly manually, but almost no one did due the Newtonian model. Docking in Frontier was also handled automatically by the autopilot system. And you were able to send comm-messages out in Frontier to "every NPC in range". This didn't work right, but that was most likely due a bug. The intent was definitely there.

Eve (and X) IS the succesor to the Elite games of the 90s. It's pretty much the logical conclusion of FFE taken online.

The nostalgia trip by some to limit Elite to the 80s and not seeing the route that was definitely on the way in Frontier: Elite 2 and First Encounters is very limiting.

 

[Flappers]

There are many things in EvE that I don't want to see happening in Elite.
The differences are more than similarities between the two games.

Everything... literally everything is player controlled/ influenced in EvE.
I really don't want Elite to end up like that.

But saying that, there are a few minor things that I hope Elite will take from EvE.
EvE has a good crafting system, and I would love to see something like it in Elite. Obviously not crafting ships, but crafting of modules/ items would be very nice to have.
I don't want to see an auction house, or in game credits for money like in EvE, but I wish for a crafting system, where we can use the ores that we mine to craft modules for our own ships. Even perhaps drop the modules for others to pick up.
It could in essence create a sort of trade system, where people may drop gold canisters for a module. I think stuff like this would enhance the social aspect of the game, while also increasing the content.

 

[OVMorat]

Eve developed over time organically into what it is now...
I love the scams / heists... The real world money that can be lost and the fact that as an mmo it has developed in ways that could not have been predicted at launch.
I hope over time elite will develop organically as well and whilst that may incorporate elements of eve like ideas it's the completely new and unplanned elements i am looking forward to.

For now I'm enjoying exploring and picking up the odd mission and trying out new ships and load outs for them.

Good post. I just hope ED will be allowed to grow organically. Right now, new ideas are just stonewalled with links to the 10 (million) commandments in the DDA.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Have you played Frontier and First Encounters? The auto-pilot and flying was very similiar to Eve: Set course through auto-pilot and press button. Sure, you could fly manually, but almost no one did due the Newtonian model. Docking in Frontier was also handled automatically by the autopilot system. And you were able to send comm-messages out in Frontier to "every NPC in range". This didn't work right, but that was most likely due a bug. The intent was definitely there.

Eve (and X) IS the succesor to the Elite games of the 90s. It's pretty much the logical conclusion of FFE taken online.

.... except for the fact that Elite: Dangerous is more of a sequel to the original than its sequels. We to not have time compression necessary to allow the Frontier travel model.

So, if Eve is the successor, then good stuff - Eve exists - it can be played by anyone that wants to play that style of game. What is less than palatable to some is for some of the game features contained in Eve (and not in E: D) are requested to be added to E: D to make it more like Eve. The logical conclusion of the repeated requests for changes is that E: D becomes Eve except with a "proper" piloting experience for combat rather than point and click.

Why not petition CCP to add features to Eve?

 

[Julio Montega]

It is only natural, that EVE retained an "autopilot" navigational system.
You are talking a different scale, when you are talking EVE.
EVE is cap ships, Elite is smaller craft.
I personally do prefer what Star Citizen does, they remove the borders from a small ship or cap ship simulation and do both,
playable and flyable by the player.

The trading system could use some aspects from other games,
and i am not sure if it wouldn't be better to allow players to manufacture their own stuff,
given they invest in a facility to do so.

Overall i agree with the OP,
and there surely are smaller things and features worthwhile including
(mainly social features).

 

[Soulstain]

Gamers today expect that each new game in a genre moves the genera forward. They don't expect another X3 or Eve or Elite, they expect something better then all of those or a mix of the best parts of all those. They don't expect a remake of a 30 year old game with just a bigger galaxy and fancy graphics! They also don't expect LESS FEATURES such as planetary landings which will now be added at a cost. That is stepping backwards. There is no breaking boundaries here. There is in fact a lot less going on here then most other space games!

 

[Valo56]

People who are on the "EVE is bad, keep its systems out of ED" are not thinking objectively. They are applying their entirely understandable distaste for the game to all its facets.

EVE does a lot of things right. If it didn't, it wouldn't be as old and successful as it is. It has proven itself to be successful. In people, being able to look to others for inspiration is a sign of strength, and I believe the same applies in video games.

There are many basic systems, such as the ability to form a guild or have territory, in EVE that I feel people are opposing just because it is also in EVE. Often the stated reason (so this isn't speculation) is that other MMO's did this, so we can't do it, as if doing something that other MMO's do will somehow destroy ED or make it not worth playing.

My advice is this: If your only reason for not liking a particular suggestion or idea is because EVE did it, then you don't have a reason to not like it, and certainly not oppose it. So, excuse me, but shut up and sit down. (You probably already are sitting down and not talking, but... you get the idea.) All you're doing is ranting at that point, and I at least am not impressed.

If, however, you can offer a well reasoned, logical explanation for why a particular suggestion or idea is bad, then you're more likely to get people listening to you rather than having a 20 page thread with people saying the same thing back and forth.

However, this requires some introspection and critical thinking, the ability to separate your bias from your arguments, skills I don't expect from random internet commenters on a forum.

The ONLY similarity is they are set in space. I hope it stays that way.

If ED implemented specialty ammunition on top of regular ammunition, would you be disappointed?
How about if we saw capital ships?
The ability for players to take a more active role in the market by engaging in industry?
Specialty mining ships?
The ability to set up small bases and outposts in space?
Basic support for the formation of guilds?

These are pretty minor things that don't make us "just like EVE." We'll never be "just like EVE" because EVE and ED are just too different on too many levels. EVE focuses on the large scale, while ED is able to pay close attention to the small scales. This is visible both in the interactions between solar systems and even the ships that we're using. ED also has a massive emphasis on NPC's, and the side you choose affects much more than just what ships you take.

Simply put, I feel your aversion to EVE, while justified, is taken to a level beyond what is appropriate.

ON THE FLIP SIDE

If you want a particular system in ED that was in EVE, think about whether it fits in the grand scheme of things on ED. Guilds fit perfectly in ED, as this is a great environment for pirate organizations, mining guilds, elite military subfactions of the Empire, and more. But if you're suggesting it because it was in EVE and you really liked EVE, even though it doesn't really make sense in ED (such as, for instance, stasis webifiers despite us not even having artificial gravity in ED), then you're... not doin' it right, sorry.

 

[Robert Maynard]

People who are on the "EVE is bad, keep its systems out of ED" are not thinking objectively. They are applying their entirely understandable distaste for the game to all its facets.

EVE does a lot of things right. If it didn't, it wouldn't be as old and successful as it is. It has proven itself to be successful. In people, being able to look to others for inspiration is a sign of strength, and I believe the same applies in video games.

There are many basic systems, such as the ability to form a guild or have territory, in EVE that I feel people are opposing just because it is also in EVE. Often the stated reason (so this isn't speculation) is that other MMO's did this, so we can't do it, as if doing something that other MMO's do will somehow destroy ED or make it not worth playing.

My advice is this: If your only reason for not liking a particular suggestion or idea is because EVE did it, then you don't have a reason to not like it, and certainly not oppose it. So, excuse me, but shut up and sit down. (You probably already are sitting down and not talking, but... you get the idea.) All you're doing is ranting at that point, and I at least am not impressed.

If, however, you can offer a well reasoned, logical explanation for why a particular suggestion or idea is bad, then you're more likely to get people listening to you rather than having a 20 page thread with people saying the same thing back and forth.

However, this requires some introspection and critical thinking, the ability to separate your bias from your arguments, skills I don't expect from random internet commenters on a forum.



If ED implemented specialty ammunition on top of regular ammunition, would you be disappointed?
How about if we saw capital ships?
The ability for players to take a more active role in the market by engaging in industry?
Specialty mining ships?
The ability to set up small bases and outposts in space?
Basic support for the formation of guilds?

These are pretty minor things that don't make us "just like EVE." We'll never be "just like EVE" because EVE and ED are just too different on too many levels. EVE focuses on the large scale, while ED is able to pay close attention to the small scales. This is visible both in the interactions between solar systems and even the ships that we're using. ED also has a massive emphasis on NPC's, and the side you choose affects much more than just what ships you take.

Simply put, I feel your aversion to EVE, while justified, is taken to a level beyond what is appropriate.

It is up to the proponents of change to make a compelling argument for change - not for those who are quite happy with the status quo to prepare a rebuttal.

 

[Im_Lost]

Well, Eve's success is debatable. It only ever peaked at around 500k players and I'd bet many of those are alts.

Many people cant stand Eve or the mentality of it's community, me included. In all it's not a very likable game. Elite is it's own thing and should go in it's own direction, most like it for how it is.