Experimenting with Exploration Ships: Seeking Help Thinking This

Atebits

A
Hi,

I'm trying to design a 12,0000 to 15,000 Ly (one-way) Scram-Jet Explorer.
This is for the Formidine Rift.


I want something that can really cover a lot of ground, loop stars quickly, but not be restraining on the view out of the cockpit.
- I really would like to avoid the Asp Explorer for a number of reasons: Too much time in it, halogen bulbs aimed at my eyes all over cockpit, and general interest to experiment a bit

My first idea was this:
http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=70j,,2-3I6u6Q5K3m6u6k,1IM4_w7Q42UI2jw


The problem with this is the Fuel Scoop.
It's junk if I'm going for speed.

Jump Range is inconsequential to Fuel Scoop speed when it comes to time as far as I can tell.
This seems to be pushing me into higher grade ships.
Does anyone have an opinion?


Diamondback Explorer is probably my favorite of the Explorer class ships, but I've spent too much time in that as well.
- It also has a 4-class fuel scoop
- Cramped


I'm willing to look at the Anaconda, but I'd like to keep this utilitarian. The Anaconda is really expensive and I don't want to spend that much money.

Anyone experimented with ideas like this that can think of a way to really cover some ground in a short amount of time?
- by this I mean I'd like to reach Heart and Soul in about a day or less.
 

AdamBell

A
T6 is good, but he wants a big fat fuel scoop to eat stars while careering round them on his way across the Rift. T7 has a C6 slot.

OP: be aware that crossing the rift gets increasingly difficult for ships with lower jump ranges. In my Rank 5 Asp with a range of 42ly, I still had to go back in a few places in order to progress. If you can afford a conda I'd use that and bring it home.
 

Jackie Silver

Jackie Silver
AdamBell said:
T6 is good, but he wants a big fat fuel scoop to eat stars while careering round them on his way across the Rift. T7 has a C6 slot.
Click to expand...

It does, but it also has a bigger drive that uses more fuel per jump.
Here's some ships sorted by the time it takes to refill one full jump's worth of fuel, if the ship has a maximum FSD and maximum fuel scoop:

Clipper 4.02
Type 9 4.76
Keelback 5.20
Type 6 5.20
Asp Explorer 5.69
FDS 5.69
Python 5.69
Type 7 5.69
'Conda 6.43
Corvette 6.43
Cutter 7.62
FAS 8.67
Orca 8.67
Cobra III 8.77
Cobra IV 8.77
Viper IV 8.77
Courier 10.23


The Type 6 is actually better than the Asp in this respect. The Clipper is a lovely ship but has shorter legs, the Type 9 is horrible and short-ranged and you might as well use a Type 6 in preference to the more stylish Keelback for this job.
 
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Jackie Silver

Jackie Silver
AdamBell said:
Strong numbers win debate. +rep
Click to expand...

Heh. I think in practice it also depends on a CMDR's usual approach and flight round the star - I don't know how exactly the scoop rate varies with height and angle - and also on each ship's relative ability to manage heat in a flypast. I don't know if anyone has worked out if there's an optimum approach for all ships, or if different ships reward different approaches, might be cool to investigate?
 

Dregory The Crow

Dregory The Crow
It's not all about size (that's what she said me :p ).

T6: refuel time - 26 sec, 166 Ly on one tank; T7: refuel time - 36 sec, 170 Ly on one tank.

And the Formidine Rift is one of that places where jump range matters.


--edit--
I should get used to refreshing page before posting. ;)
 
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Kenneth McGrew

Kenneth McGrew
Jackie Silver said:
It does, but it also has a bigger drive that uses more fuel per jump.
Here's some ships sorted by the time it takes to refill one full jump's worth of fuel, if the ship has a maximum FSD and maximum fuel scoop:

Clipper 4.02
Type 9 4.76
Keelback 5.20
Type 6 5.20
Asp Explorer 5.69
FDS 5.69
Python 5.69
Type 7 5.69
'Conda 6.43
Corvette 6.43
Cutter 7.62
FAS 8.67
Orca 8.67
Cobra III 8.77
Cobra IV 8.77
Viper IV 8.77
Courier 10.23


The Type 6 is actually better than the Asp in this respect. The Clipper is a lovely ship but has shorter legs, the Type 9 is horrible and short-ranged and you might as well use a Type 6 in preference to the more stylish Keelback for this job.
Click to expand...

where do the Diamondback series fit into this?
 

StiTch

StiTch
So here's the money shot:
https://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial...---02---3h110nv4-432i2f.AwRj4y2VyA==.Aw18aQ==

-All the internal space you need, and a spare for anything else you may want.

-Beautiful ship in and out, for a good experience flying and taking shotties.

-Enjoyable SC handling

-Jump range is fairly reasonable, especially after mods

-Scoops really fast for that "conda scooping" feel without actually flying a space brick (12 seconds to completely refuel tank using 7A scoop)

-D rated thrusters a class down. Still flies at 309 m/s unboosted. Can drop distributor into "unable to boost" grounds for even further for moar jump range, and still not care about interdictions back at bubble.

-Did I mention the canopy and them screenshots?

-Handles better than you'd think landing on planets

So yeah. Galvanised the iClipper, made it an explorer loved it, though the above isn't my build...and if you can deal with 25ish LY jump unmodded then give it a go (y)
 
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Allitnil

Allitnil
Jackie Silver said:
It does, but it also has a bigger drive that uses more fuel per jump.
Here's some ships sorted by the time it takes to refill one full jump's worth of fuel, if the ship has a maximum FSD and maximum fuel scoop:
Click to expand...
Very useful info but there are a couple of other factors to take into account. Firstly, how quickly does the scoop get up to its maximum scoop rate (might be the same for all classes, I don't know) and what's the heat profile of the ship.

For instance, although the Conda is mid-way in the list on pure numbers, it is almost always possible to start charging the FSD for the next jump as soon as it finishes the cool down wait. Even though this is 10 seconds after jumping into the system, you won't have fully refuelled (the 6.43s doesn't take into account the ramping up time) but you will have done so by the time you exit the corona. Obviously this takes practice to avoid frying yourself - and you will get toasty warm from time to time :D - but it shows that the Conda wouldn't significantly benefit even if it had the option of a class 8 fuel scoop.

Going back to the OP's original suggestion that

Atebits said:
Jump Range is inconsequential to Fuel Scoop speed when it comes to time as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

Let's consider two options, a 30 LY ship that needed an extra two seconds to refuel on each jump and a 29 LY one that didn't. The optimum time for a jump cycle is 43s but 45s in a more realistic figure. Over 12,000 LY the likely number of jumps would be around 500 and 525 respectively giving total times of 500 * 47s = 6 hours 32 mins and 525 * 45s = 6 hours 34 mins. Nothing in it.

Personally, for speed I would always go with the higher jump range, practice getting your jump cycle time as close to the optimum as possible and learning to love the smell of a smoking cabin [haha]
 
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marx

marx
Allitnil said:
Personally, for speed I would always go with the higher jump range, practice getting your jump cycle time as close to the optimum as possible and learning to love the smell of a smoking cabin [haha]
Click to expand...
That advice goes quite well with your forum avatar.
 
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Jackie Silver

Jackie Silver
Allitnil said:
Very useful info but there are a couple of other factors to take into account. Firstly, how quickly does the scoop get up to its maximum scoop rate (might be the same for all classes, I don't know) and what's the heat profile of the ship.
Click to expand...

*grins* Yeah, I've added "scoop rates" to my ever-growing List Of Things Wot Need Researching. :)
 

Atebits

A
Hi all!

Thank you for so many replies!
- Below: If I say something negative I've just said something negative. It's part of the decision process. I'll still probably end up with one of these I shoot down.


@ AdamBell
I'm hot and cold about the Type-7, 6, Keelback, and Diamondback Explorer. Forward view they are all fantastic ships. It's when I look left or right that they end up out of my list fast. I really get too anxious when I can't see where the star if I'm hugging it for fuel. The Diamondback especially gets to me about this as I can't see under me which means my preferred approach for all of these ships tends to be upside and at 45 degree tilt while orbiting. I can do it by the numbers and not look out the windows, but on those days when the trip is long and I am brain-dead with boredom having visual confirmation I'm not spiraling into a star is a big deal.

The other reasons I'm not keen on the regular explorer ships is I've been in them too much.

Lastly, the Asp Explorer signs lights back in my face which are the same color as those prone to kicking on my migraines RL. I've tried pasting two sticky notes to either side of the monitor. Helps a bit, but still rather just avoid it altogether.


Saved the build, thank you! I am in debate with myself on the Type-7 yet. I need to save up a bit more money to buy that yet.



@Dregory the Crow
It's the most appealing for modules, but I feel like i'm flying a bread box or maybe the loaf itself. I know that's a dumb reason to not like it, but it does wear on me randomly. That builds up and I always end up taking it home and selling it. Price wise though it is the best all around explorer.


@ Jackie Silver
Ditto, but for above ^

@ Rudi Raumkraut
I LOVE the Courier, but it refuels too darn slow.
Psychologically it maybe needs a tiny bit more space to feel like I can get up and walk around if I needed. I dunno why the mind picks up on these things, but the longer the trip the more it does.
- I never ran this loadout before. I will try it as I usually end up with heat problems with the Courier
- Engineers *shudders*

@AdamBell
The last time I went to the Rift I was in an Asp Explorer. Really weird stuff happened. I was 400 Ly from Heart and Soul and I lost all of my HUD. I got it to turn back on by rebooting everything one at a time. Then I couldn't see anything outside the ship: no orbit lines. Worse, it wouldn't let me jump more than one system at a time. I spent about three days with that problem and asking on the forums what to do. Eventually another system by system reboot worked it out. I dunno what that was about, but I didn't like it.
- Ya, I got stuck too. About 900 Ly out into the rift itself I couldn't reach anything anymore. I ended up having to backtrack for a couple days. I was being stubborn and didn't want to use the bridge further down. I tried to just cross straight through. 33 Ly was too short. This time I am just bored and wanted to sit out there for awhile and retake my original path to re-think a lot of it.


@Jackie Silver
Ooo that is awesome to see. Thanks Jackie - I didn't think about it like that.

@ AdamBell
Hahaha

@Dregory the Crow
haha

Maybe I should try to make a good Jump Range + from Engineers *sucks on the barrel of a gun for a bit on how appealing that idea is*
- Still... options

@ Kenneth Mcgrew
Good question... I've found the Diamondback takes FOREVER to refuel so I crossed it off my list early. Even the Asp Scout refuels faster than the Diamondback

@ Rudi Taumkraut
O_O

@ Dregory The Crow

@ Stitch
It looks like I really need to try these lighter load engines for the Courier. That one looks like it won't melt by a star too.

@ Jackie Silver
That really quiets the ambiguity!
Thank you

@ Allitnil
That makes sense. In a Type-9 jumping 16.3 Ly I can make 900 Ly every 2 hours fueling every third star or so. I really do not enjoy exploration out on the rim. The ships available for that are really few and really only the Asp have the right cockpit.

Ya, the higher jump range is looking to be increasingly the only way to go. Maybe I'll sacrifice the Planetary Lander since trying to get Synthesis materials is like trying to find Unicorns with LSD.
- The Conda is bleh. The front glass area could be a great spot for a cockpit if it wrapped around the nose a bit. On top it just feels like driving around a ski-slope made of raggedy metal bits.

@ Marx
If they're piloting a conda they probably look like that! "Poof! 51.1 Ly! Hah!" ... I think it was the Conda that finally broke that barrier recently

@ Jackie Silver
Ya, I'm going to be paying attention for your posts from now on. Good numbers!


Update:
As of last night I took a Asp Scout to Merope 5c and landed in the biggest crater there. It was the loadout I posted above, but used a 3C Fuel Tank (Capacity: 8) to get up to 30.1 Ly jumps.

So far, in terms of handling this is my favorite of the small exploration ships.
3C Fuel Tank (Capacity: 8) was stupid scary though.
- This thing might be worthy of some time spent with the Engineers if they really make the content less a bottomless time-pit with components that don't appear.
- I changed the Power Disturber to a 3D. This really improved handling.
- I also attempted all A-Rated components. It flew like the Asp Explorer: fat and ungainly like trying to wear run in a shirt stuffed with water balloon. Didn't like it and went back to the modifications immediately above.

Psychologically:
The T-6 windows defeat me. I can't handle that sense of cramped "staring ever forward" -ness.
- Same problem with Diamondback
- Same problem with Keelback
- T-7 is still beyond my spending limits at the moment
- T-6 flying-breadloaf really defeats me too (darn hologram): which is really weird as this impression isn't really gained from the front at all.

Courier I need to save up and buy gain with the lower grade loadouts instead of "I am flying a microwave oven" design I had for myself before.

Sad about the Diamondback:
I think there's something to this angle of approach thing. I can't understand why the Diamondback Fuels slower than a Asp Scout when they use the same module.
- Possibly answer: Psychology. It's damn hard to tell where you are in relationship to the star in the Diamondback - back to the problem of cockpits.

In terms of functionality by module plus range:
Conda
Asp Explorer
Type 6

In terms of visibility:
Type-9
Asps
Courier (no bottom view)
Conda (no top or bottom view)
Type-6 & Diamondback (bad side to side)

Type-7 ?? Possibly good?


About Fuel Scoops:
Previous to last night's experiments I was convinced that all Fuel Scoops fuel at the same rate.
- Further, I was convinced that all psychological impression of this rate was dependent on: Size of Fuel Tank + Fuel Scoop number-grade
- I do not believe this any longer
- I had an immeasurably easier time fueling with Asp Scout than I have had with the Diamondback Explorer
- However, the Asp Scout feels more fragile than the Diamondback Explorer
- This may have something to do with the way the Asp Scout refuels quickly, but also heats more quickly
- Unless forgetful I have yet to be able to really feel in danger from stars with a Diamondback... even the one time I flew head first into one because I forgot to throttle down and walked away it still worked fine. Just dumped heat sinks patiently and turned around to jump out. ...An Asp? I'd be a missing persons report.
 
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