With shields-down fighting becoming more and more common these days, I figured it was about time someone worked out the specifics of hull damage. Most people know that small weapons suffer a damage penalty when attacking larger ships, but how much of a damage penalty is there? What constitutes a "larger" ship? I've collected a bunch of information from devs and in-game experimentation (thanks to CMDR Nightflurry and CMDR Kilif) to help make things more clear.
Every weapon has a behind-the-scenes "Piercing" value. Let's call this value APF, or Armor Piercing Factor. Conversely, every ship has a armor "hardness" value. I'll refer to it as HFV, or Hardness- Frontier Value. To determine how much damage a weapon does to a given ship, those two values are compared. If the APF of the weapons is equal to or greater than the HFV of the target ship, the weapon does full damage. If the APF is lower than the HFV of the target ship, the weapon will do damage based on the below formula:
Note that this is before any resistance based on armor type (mirrored, reactive, etc.) and damage type (thermal, kinetic, etc.). The damage is then further modified for those factors according to the following relationships (from dev conversation):
From the devs, I know the small fixed pulse laser does exactly 2.05 damage per shot, and has a APF of 20. Using this information, I could calculate the HFV of any given ship by:
1) shooting at it with a small fixed pulse laser, counting how many shots it took to reach a given percentage
2) Divide the damage done by the number of shots to determine how much damage each shot did
3) See how much the small fixed pulse laser damage was being reduced, and thus determine the hardness
Since I only can see whole numbers (which are presumably rounded), these estimates can be off by +/- 2 or so. Also, since any ship with a hardness value less than 20 would show up as 20 in these calculations (since the pulse laser is doing full damage at that point), the ships listed as 20 may in fact be less.
All right. Let's look at some numbers. Here is a list of the ships and their estimated* HFVs:
Now, to get an idea of what these actually mean, I used the HFV determined for the federal gunship and the single-shot shield damage tested in another thread to figure out the APF of the medium and large fixed pulse lasers. The values I came up with were as follows:
What does this mean? Well, any ship with an HFV greater than 20 will take reduced damage from small fixed pulse lasers. Greater than 35 will resisted small and medium pulse lasers. Greater than 50 will resist all three, to some degree. It also shows that some ships are a lot better at resisting small-arms fire than might otherwise be expected- the asp scout, for instance. An asp scout has an HFV of ~51. A small pulse laser hitting a standard hull would do about 40% of its normal damage, and a medium pulse laser would do about 68% its full damage. Only by using a large pulse laser can you do roughly full damage. A small, low-HFV ship with loaded down with tons of hull reinforcement packages will not be as effective at tanking damage as a large, high-HFV ship with a comperable amount of armor in most situations.
Ok, so what's next? Well for starters, I'd like to get the data on the ships I haven't been able to test. I simply don't have the credits to purchase those ships right now, so I need help from my fellow commanders. If you want to help, here's how you can do it.
1) Make sure you have stock armor, and no HRPs installed.
2) Make sure your armor and wear-and-tear are 100% repaired.
3) Have someone shoot you with a small fixed pulse laser until your hull hits ~80%.
-make sure they aim away from all modules. If any module (including the canopy) takes damage during the test, the results will be invalid
4) Figure out roughly how much damage each shot did. The formula for this is [Damage Per Shot] = [Max Armor] * [% Hull Missing] / [Number of Shots Fired]
5) Use that result to calculate the HFV using this formula: [HFV] = [Small Fixed Pulse APF] * [Small Fixed Pulse Damage] / [Damage Per Shot]
in addition to filling out the HFV chart, I'd also like to figure out the APF of the remainder of the weapons. You know how FDev have said that some weapons are better at hitting "above their weight class" than others? Well that means those weapons should have higher APF values. To figure out the APF of a given weapons, use the following steps:
1) Get a ship with a highest HFV you can afford.
2) Make sure you have stock armor, and no HRPs installed.
3) Make sure your armor and wear-and-tear are 100% repaired.
4) Have someone shoot you with the weapon in question until your hull hits ~80%.
5) Figure out roughly how much damage each shot did. The formula for this is [Damage Per Shot] = [Max Armor] * [% Hull Missing] / [Number of Shots Fired]
6) Figure out the base damage of the weapon, using the resistance values at the start of this thread, and the data in this other thread.
-For thermal weapons, base damage is single shot damage in the linked thread divided by 1.2. For kinetic weapons, base damage is single shot damage in the linked thread divided by 0.6. For explosive weapons, base damage is single shot damage in the linked thread divided by 0.1.
7) Modify that base damage to what it would be vs. standard armor
-For thermal weapons, leave the number alone. For kinetic weapons, multiply the value by 1.2. For explosive weapons, multiply the value by 1.4.
8) Figure out the APF of the weapon with the following formula: [APF] = [Damage Per Shot] * [HFV of Test Ship] / [Modified Base Damage]
*Note: Thermokinetic weapons (rails, PAs, mines) are a 50/50 split between thermal and kinetic. Treat them as two simultaneous attacks (one thermal, one kinetic) with the same base damage.
Using the single-shot damage data from the previously mentioned thread, the HFV data from this thread, and the shield and armor resistances mentioned earlier, the APF can be determined of any weapon. If you guys do some testing of your own, please share your results with me. If you'd like to help me test some other values, feel free to send me a PM. Together, we can de-mystify Elite.
Edit: Though the help of CMDRs Ausbird, Atheren Zethere, and Verec, a few more ships were added to the list.
Every weapon has a behind-the-scenes "Piercing" value. Let's call this value APF, or Armor Piercing Factor. Conversely, every ship has a armor "hardness" value. I'll refer to it as HFV, or Hardness- Frontier Value. To determine how much damage a weapon does to a given ship, those two values are compared. If the APF of the weapons is equal to or greater than the HFV of the target ship, the weapon does full damage. If the APF is lower than the HFV of the target ship, the weapon will do damage based on the below formula:
Note that this is before any resistance based on armor type (mirrored, reactive, etc.) and damage type (thermal, kinetic, etc.). The damage is then further modified for those factors according to the following relationships (from dev conversation):
From the devs, I know the small fixed pulse laser does exactly 2.05 damage per shot, and has a APF of 20. Using this information, I could calculate the HFV of any given ship by:
1) shooting at it with a small fixed pulse laser, counting how many shots it took to reach a given percentage
2) Divide the damage done by the number of shots to determine how much damage each shot did
3) See how much the small fixed pulse laser damage was being reduced, and thus determine the hardness
Since I only can see whole numbers (which are presumably rounded), these estimates can be off by +/- 2 or so. Also, since any ship with a hardness value less than 20 would show up as 20 in these calculations (since the pulse laser is doing full damage at that point), the ships listed as 20 may in fact be less.
All right. Let's look at some numbers. Here is a list of the ships and their estimated* HFVs:
Now, to get an idea of what these actually mean, I used the HFV determined for the federal gunship and the single-shot shield damage tested in another thread to figure out the APF of the medium and large fixed pulse lasers. The values I came up with were as follows:
What does this mean? Well, any ship with an HFV greater than 20 will take reduced damage from small fixed pulse lasers. Greater than 35 will resisted small and medium pulse lasers. Greater than 50 will resist all three, to some degree. It also shows that some ships are a lot better at resisting small-arms fire than might otherwise be expected- the asp scout, for instance. An asp scout has an HFV of ~51. A small pulse laser hitting a standard hull would do about 40% of its normal damage, and a medium pulse laser would do about 68% its full damage. Only by using a large pulse laser can you do roughly full damage. A small, low-HFV ship with loaded down with tons of hull reinforcement packages will not be as effective at tanking damage as a large, high-HFV ship with a comperable amount of armor in most situations.
Ok, so what's next? Well for starters, I'd like to get the data on the ships I haven't been able to test. I simply don't have the credits to purchase those ships right now, so I need help from my fellow commanders. If you want to help, here's how you can do it.
1) Make sure you have stock armor, and no HRPs installed.
2) Make sure your armor and wear-and-tear are 100% repaired.
3) Have someone shoot you with a small fixed pulse laser until your hull hits ~80%.
-make sure they aim away from all modules. If any module (including the canopy) takes damage during the test, the results will be invalid
4) Figure out roughly how much damage each shot did. The formula for this is [Damage Per Shot] = [Max Armor] * [% Hull Missing] / [Number of Shots Fired]
5) Use that result to calculate the HFV using this formula: [HFV] = [Small Fixed Pulse APF] * [Small Fixed Pulse Damage] / [Damage Per Shot]
in addition to filling out the HFV chart, I'd also like to figure out the APF of the remainder of the weapons. You know how FDev have said that some weapons are better at hitting "above their weight class" than others? Well that means those weapons should have higher APF values. To figure out the APF of a given weapons, use the following steps:
1) Get a ship with a highest HFV you can afford.
2) Make sure you have stock armor, and no HRPs installed.
3) Make sure your armor and wear-and-tear are 100% repaired.
4) Have someone shoot you with the weapon in question until your hull hits ~80%.
5) Figure out roughly how much damage each shot did. The formula for this is [Damage Per Shot] = [Max Armor] * [% Hull Missing] / [Number of Shots Fired]
6) Figure out the base damage of the weapon, using the resistance values at the start of this thread, and the data in this other thread.
-For thermal weapons, base damage is single shot damage in the linked thread divided by 1.2. For kinetic weapons, base damage is single shot damage in the linked thread divided by 0.6. For explosive weapons, base damage is single shot damage in the linked thread divided by 0.1.
7) Modify that base damage to what it would be vs. standard armor
-For thermal weapons, leave the number alone. For kinetic weapons, multiply the value by 1.2. For explosive weapons, multiply the value by 1.4.
8) Figure out the APF of the weapon with the following formula: [APF] = [Damage Per Shot] * [HFV of Test Ship] / [Modified Base Damage]
*Note: Thermokinetic weapons (rails, PAs, mines) are a 50/50 split between thermal and kinetic. Treat them as two simultaneous attacks (one thermal, one kinetic) with the same base damage.
Using the single-shot damage data from the previously mentioned thread, the HFV data from this thread, and the shield and armor resistances mentioned earlier, the APF can be determined of any weapon. If you guys do some testing of your own, please share your results with me. If you'd like to help me test some other values, feel free to send me a PM. Together, we can de-mystify Elite.
Edit: Though the help of CMDRs Ausbird, Atheren Zethere, and Verec, a few more ships were added to the list.
Last edited:
