Exploration profit should bring more motivation

[geoffrey.hdt]

I wanted to try exploration for a while and gave it a try. Unlike what people say, it is profitable. Less profitable than trading in solo or bounty hunting at RES, but almost without any risk if you have the right ship/modules (advanced scanner, good fuel scoop, rate A powerplant) and know a few tricks such as throttling to zero after jumping (to avoid crushing this neutron star).

However I quickly realized that to maximize profit, you either:
- Invest a huge amount of time, reach the core area and scan non-sequenced stars/white dwarves which are next to each others over there. This is a way to get the highest profit.
- You just learn how to use the galaxy map filter view and go to the closest non-sequenced stars/white dwarves, one after the other, while simply pinging the other systems in between. Being further away does not bring more profit anyway.

This is boring since the real thing about exploration is to discover what these systems contain, or/and be the first to discover them. But supercruising within a system takes time (so does surface scanning) and the odd to finally find an Earth-like world brings what? Twice the profit of a neutron star on which you would drop directly? And travelling where nobody goes (= most likely not so interesting areas) brings +50% bonus only? This does not bring much motivation to me.

I would like to see:
- Being back to the previous profit (Edit: basically, decrease the profit by 50%) for systems and bodies scanned...
- ...except for Earth-like worlds (since these are the things we should focus on)
- Increasing to +150% the profit for systems and bodies you are the first to discover.
- Maybe an additional +50% bonus if all bodies of a system have been surface scanned?

EDIT: I DO NOT MEAN TO INCREASE (AGAIN) THE GLOBAL PROFIT FOR EXPLORATION. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE PROFIT INCREASED IF THE RIGHT THINGS ARE DONE.

This would push players to explore further, deeper, and reward them accordingly.
Players could still go visit the well known area and enjoy the scenery, while still getting a little profit (but going to a touristic area is not about profit anyway, right?)

 

[Surly_Badger]

Why does everything have to be about maximizing profit? Exploring may be boring and unprofitable for you but it's fun and relaxing for others of us. Not everything has to be a way of grinding cash; there's no amount of cash that'll please some people, anyway. So let's not turn ED into an arms-race between methods for making pointless piles of cash. I wish the game'd just give money-grubbing players whatever they want, so they'd either go away or enjoy the game for its own sake.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Why does everything have to be about maximizing profit? [...]I wish the game'd just give money-grubbing players whatever they want, so they'd either go away or enjoy the game for its own sake.

You missed my point. I just would like to see ED push us to do the right things to maximize the profit, and it is possible.
You say that profit should not be the reason to play? But if you remove entirely the profit, do you really thing people would play the way they do? Or keep playing at all?

 

[Chance-]

The game would be very different without Profit yes but I'd still play the game if it was simply for the joy of exploring. I love finding interesting stuff through the galaxy and I don't see much need in making more than I already do while exploring. You can make a pretty penny if you go out a few thousand light years.

 

[Surly_Badger]

You missed my point.

No, I didn't.
I understand what you think ED should do, and I don't agree with you.

Edit: besides, if you make exploring more profitable, then the miners will want mining more profitable, then the traders are going to complain and want trading to be more profitable, and then the bounty hunters will want... etc. In my opinion, Frontier would be wiser spending their time making the game more fun and not worrying about balancing profits in order to please the credit-grinders, or to encourage people to play one part of the game. Want to have more people explore: put cooler stuff out there, or make exploration (somehow) more fun and interesting. Not all of us are motivated by worthless pointless credits stored in a 64-bit integer in a database on a server somewhere. Want to make exploring more popular? Add amazing accretion disks. Make it more dangerous to fly into a black hole. Keep track of how badly irradiated we get. Finish the planetary landings and let us send probes down to collect life-forms from gas giants... Give us filters that let us see what things look like in ultraviolet, or infrared. Make it more interesting. From my perspective, it's plenty interesting already (says the guy who's just finishing up a cross-galaxy trip)

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

No, I didn't.

First, I'm OK to agree to disagree and do not want to start an argument here.
Just to clarify, I do not play for the profit and aim at a slow progression to enjoy the game as long as possible (I do not want to fly the best ship right away!). However I like challenge, and progressing in the game means doing some profit (to upgrade ships, being able to fight/earn bigger, etc...).
I just would like to see greater rewards for challenging gameplay.

 

[geoffrey.hdt]

Then the miners will want mining more profitable[...]the game more fun

Well, that's what they are going to do in 1.3 with the drones. And I, personally, will finally give another try to mining.

Add amazing accretion disks. Make it more dangerous to fly into a black hole. Keep track of how badly irradiated we get. Finish the planetary landings and let us send probes down to collect life-forms from gas giants... Give us filters that let us see what things look like in ultraviolet, or infrared. Make it more interesting. From my perspective, it's plenty interesting already (says the guy who's just finishing up a cross-galaxy trip)

This would be awesome, and I would dream about...but will take a while to be developed. In the meantime, the current gameplay changes I suggest would be pretty easy to put into place.

 

[Surly_Badger]

In the meantime, the current gameplay changes I suggest would be pretty easy to put into place.

If all you do is change the compensation players get for activities, you'll cause in-game inflation.

Game designers historically fail horribly at balancing economics because:
- players demand balance
- real economics are never balanced
- players want a goal, which means they're going to want to grind or get some kind of valuable thing
Then, inevitably, the game designers want to add a new something, which is better than the old something, which means it's more valuable... Etc. What happens is that the game designers start having to figure out ways to get players' in-game wealth away from them. That means that the next cool ship: it'll cost $10mm credits more than it otherwise would. Or there will be other desirable in-game things that will slowly get more and more expensive. If you've played World of Warcraft for more than one expansion, you'll know what I'm talking about: they come up with ridiculous ways to skim players' in-game cash. (did you see WoW is now skimming in-game cash in return for subscription time? that's the equivalent of the Federal Reserve propping up the dollar by buying it back at a premium)

I understand and respect your "let's agree to disagree" attitude. I disagree with inflating the value return on in-game activities as a way of encouraging game-play, because it's a cheap, bad "fix" that actually makes things worse because it inevitably results in everything getting devalued through market pressures. What you're asking for is not a simple fix that would make the game better. What would make the game better would be to fix the mission structures and make them more interesting, make astronomical objects more interesting, get planetary landings and other more interesting things going. Tweaking the economy is not going to make anything more interesting, except for a brief while to the "gotta have mah anacondah" crowd, for about 24 hours until they find the next thing to complain about. (in fact, the kind of economic death-spiral I'm describing is exactly why games like World of Warcraft become pointless grind-fests: the game designers keep adding new objectives at the top end of the economy for the players to keep grinding for, because they actually have very little idea for how to make the game more interesting)

Major edit: for example, ways to make the game more interesting would be to add other stateful-dependent elements of game-play. Perhaps, a reputation system (a good one, not the current placeholder thing with factions) where your wealth changes how NPCs and stations react to you, and your actions also affect your reputation. So you could become a famous miner, or whatnot. And then there would presumably need to be goals associated with those systems. Skyrim got this kind of thing pretty right: you could become the Archmage Of Whatsit, or an arena champion, or whatever... Those would amount to sub-games with separate rules-systems (make them interlock, though) The reason that would be cool is that it encourages game-play that's not just about credits. What if I could build up such a reputation that I could start my own faction? What if I could make enough money to sponsor an orbital? Why can't I design a ship? I'd rather see FD spend their time building so many complex side-paths into the game that money becomes like it is in real life: a tool, not an objective. Personally, I am endlessly bored of players who can only think to grub credits, though admittedly, FD set themselves up for that by making credits more or less the value-key to the whole game universe.*

For that matter, if they want to make exploring more attractive, they could simply add in-game rewards specific to that area of endeavor. If you reach elite in exploring you can buy an Elite Explorer Asp with a special fuel tank. If you reach elite in mining you get a specialized mining ship. ... Many games (like Skyrim, or World of Warcraft) add sub-reward systems in the form of epic quest-lines. Skyrim did a great job of that, World of Warcraft made it a grind-fest. It takes good game design to do this right.

(* in real life, money is a portable form of power, so that's legit, but they didn't balance the tradeoffs and inefficiencies)

 

[DocLooshkin]

Want to make exploring more popular? Add amazing accretion disks. Make it more dangerous to fly into a black hole. Keep track of how badly irradiated we get. Finish the planetary landings and let us send probes down to collect life-forms from gas giants... Give us filters that let us see what things look like in ultraviolet, or infrared. Make it more interesting.

This. We don't need more money anything like as badly as we need more game.

 

[MephisRA]

It really does seem useless to post any good ideas in this forum, since most of the playerbase seems to be a bunch of masochists,
where everything should cost 50 million upwards, so the grind for cash is annoying as possible and everything else that could
make life easier in game should be nerfed or removed...

Congratulations! You are first to discover: xxxxxxxx Bonus 0 Credits

Great success!

 

[Surly_Badger]

It really does seem useless to post any good ideas in this forum, since most of the playerbase seems to be a bunch of masochists

Yeah, because a detailed explanation of why I disagree with the OP's suggestion is dismissive? But certainly not as dismissive as your trying to simply accuse "most of the playerbase" as "masochists"? Gotcha.

There has been a tremendous amount of thinking and back and forth on this topic, and the players who see things as I do aren't taking the game lightly, or just being irritating - we have different ideas of what "balance" is in a game, and what the game's purpose is.

We are not all "grinds". Consider that carefully. Yes, some of us enjoy difficult game-play. But you'll notice I wasn't just randomly shooting down his idea, I was suggesting more fruitful avenues that FD might invest time in to improve the game, as well as explaining why merely boosting prices is not even a fix at all. If you don't believe me, watch the prices of new ships as they are introduced into the game: I'll bet you 5t of palladium they'll trend upwards. That's inflation.

the grind for cash is annoying as possible

If you are grinding for cash, that is your choice. I have never ground for cash and never will.

Besides, I actually wish "grinders" could just get an infinite amount of cash immediately. That way they would get bored and leave faster and be quieter about it. Or maybe they'd think about how to play the game, instead. Either would be fine. I actually want things to be super easy for you. Because your game-play and grinding doesn't affect me in the slightest. What I want is a more rich game experience, and in-game credits can't buy that.

 

[xondk]

I think only two things are needed, incentitive to scan asteroids, give us a little money for those currently worthless stones, or maybe a bonus for a complete scanned / deep scanned system?

That and some filters to get an idea of where you have been and such.

 

[MephisRA]

what the game's purpose is.

meaning of life?

talking about the purpose of a game is pretty narrow-minded and excludes new ideas and concepts very quickly...

first goal should be, to be as much fun and interesting and motivating for as many players as possible...

and in its current state, the game feels pretty dead and empty with just a few choises and possibilties,
there is just not much to do and that what is to do gets pretty boring fast...

the game seems still to be in its very early stages and there is a lot more needed to improve...

to get back to the topic, your opinion is yours and mine is mine, evrybody just has its own, that doesnt make you special
or gives you the right to exclude other peoples ideas, try instead to get OPs ideas realized in a way that it wont collide
with "your idea" of the games purpose...

Just introduce a Scanner into the game that gives the OP the option to make more profit with his scans, you dont need to use it,
if you dont want to and everybody is happy, what really is missing is diversity and content.

Diversity > Unity

 

[golan]

Disclaimer: I'm not that good of an explorer yet, I'm still earning cash for some modules I need.

Depending on the star class you know if you'll find good planets or not. After scanning the system with the advanced discovery scanner, in a system that usually brings interesting exploration perspectives, I go to the systems tabs and there you'll know what ring will have that planet that you're interested in. Depending on the color shown, you'll know if it's worth the trip for a detailed surface scan. Gas giants can be scanned from 600ly or so, in most dwarf and K systems you can scan these giants from where you stop the ship to refuel and scan the star itself.

What I'm saying is that you can make 30-70cr in a system that was already discovered and with little to offer in terms of novelty of the bodies found there. And you can do this with very little navigation within the system so you can make credits faster. However, there are systems with a secondary star that is hundred of thousands of light seconds away from the nav beacon. It's really frustrating not being able to travel faster for long distances within the solar system.

I also agree the reward should be increased, in these cases: 1) newly discovered stars and planets 2) first time discovery of an earth like planet should be a gold mine 3) first detailed surface scans of any astronomical bodies should offer a greater incentive, enough to justify the trip within the system for exploring any system, previously found or not. IDK how much would be enough, the devs should be able to get some stats and see how profitable each profession really is, they should balance it so you can earn a similar amount of credits from exploration for the same amount of play time.

 

[MephisRA]

It's really frustrating not being able to travel faster for long distances within the solar system.

Than use the time to take a look out the window or clean your room or make some food^^


For me, the need to get closeer than 500 Ls to a planet, is more annoying, than those long cruises >200.000 Ls

 

[golan]

Than use the time to take a look out the window or clean your room or make some food^^

For me, the need to get closeer than 500 Ls to a planet, is more annoying, than those long cruises >200.000 Ls

That would be ok IF the earnings you make would justify the trip, which is the whole point of this thread if I'm not mistaken. However, it's a video game, it's not ok to suggest a player should spent 20 min without having anything to do, game related.

 

[Joe Spivey]

I explore everything in a system because, well, that's what explorers do. My reward? An air of superiority over the drive-by tourists who call themselves explorers . On a serious note though, if there are going to be 'interesting' things to find in the Big Black who do you think is going to find them? Will it be the tourist who zooms in, honks, scans the valuable planets at maximum range and then zooms on to the next system? Or will it be the explorer who visits whatever the system has to offer and actually has a chance of noticing the wreck of the Thargoid mothership in a slowly decaying orbit around a small rocky moon?

 

[Wullail]

I think only two things are needed, incentitive to scan asteroids, give us a little money for those currently worthless stones, or maybe a bonus for a complete scanned / deep scanned system?

That and some filters to get an idea of where you have been and such.

Also

Add a mining laser to your exploration vassels , we drop into the ring systems (I've lost count of how many I've seen on my journey) , knock off a number of chunks that we have to process ala-mining , this registers the type of ring it is for more credits.

Who wouldn't want to know where a system with pristine metalic rings located is for expansion reasons , terraformables and earth likes are all well and good , but you still need resources off-planet to expand your base systems.

 

[InMemoriamSirocco]

There should definitely be a reward for asteroid clusters, too... asteroids are valuable resources. It makes no sense that you don't get a finder's fee for them.

Earthlikes and terraforming candidates should me worth much more. Maybe about 100 000 cr for a terraformable and 200 000 cr for an earthlike. It's still just a tiny finder's fee compared to the actual value such a planet would have, but it also represents their extraordinary value.


Also, there should be a bonus for completely scanning every single contact in a system, with its value based on the number of contacts scanned. This would reward explorers for doing their job thoroughly instead of cherry picking.

 

[golan]

I explore everything in a system because, well, that's what explorers do. My reward? An air of superiority over the drive-by tourists who call themselves explorers . On a serious note though, if there are going to be 'interesting' things to find in the Big Black who do you think is going to find them? Will it be the tourist who zooms in, honks, scans the valuable planets at maximum range and then zooms on to the next system? Or will it be the explorer who visits whatever the system has to offer and actually has a chance of noticing the wreck of the Thargoid mothership in a slowly decaying orbit around a small rocky moon?

The honest answer to that 2nd question is: whoever is lucky enough to get the randomly generated trigger on the servers to spawn a low intensity signal source for the player to investigate. The probability of finding something of worth in a 500,000 ls are ridiculous to even estimate. The thing is you'll go for the astronomical bodies of interest anyway and whatever you might find should be there. However, the possibility of finding something interesting doesn't change the fact that you should be able to fast travel to those bodies that are far away.